CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[tfw756rider]

Today's (Mon 23/3/26) 6G97 1006 Donnington Rft to Crewe C.S. (L&Nwr Site) (66515+barrier 1+197041+barriers 2-6) arrived at Crewe C.S. (L&Nwr Site) 8 minutes early (at 1213 rather than 1221).

 

[Jacob Porrett]

 

[GaryNeville]

For me the best indication that Cambrian is to switch over to 197s is when enough of the 398s are in service to cover the TAM lines so that the 231s & 756s can go to their planned / correct routes thus freeing up 197s for their planned /correct routes.

The Cambrian is due to Switchover in September regardless of 398’s.
I’m told crew training starts in the next few weeks.

On this thread way back we were given the impression it would be an overnight/over-weekend switch over. But is that still true ?.

Alternatively. If Cambrian can run a mix of 158s and 197s. Then perhaps these extra 197s will partially take over.
Two things make this unlikely.
Machynlleth depot cannot cope with a mix of fleets.
So much splitting and joining happens of trains on Cambrian Coast that it is inevitable a 197 will encounter the need to couple to a 158. I have not seen any indication that this is to become possible ?

Both options are still possible, it hasn’t been decided on how it will be done yet. Advantages and disadvantages to both.
We know they can run together as they are now for testing and will be all summer for crew training.
The depot will largely be the same staff but will be run by CAF.
TFW might perhaps have bad memories of when a legacy fleet depot was taken over by CAF.
Lack of stabling space for two fleet is the bigger problem.
197’s could be introduced on diagrams that don’t have any Cambrian splitting and joining.
As I say, not decided yet.

Effectively not possible - 158-197 coupling requires an adapter and even then, 5mph maximum I believe.

Thanks, that's definitely not a possible day to day for passenger operations then !.

I believe it also requires a forklift to lift it into place. If so, not even useful in a recovery scenario.

 

[tfw756rider]

I’m told crew training starts in the next few weeks.

Ey? Following me seeing the pre-driver training check runs in November 2025, driven by the driver trainer(s), I was of the understanding that the first 197 Cambrian driver/crew training took place in December 2025 and continued into January and February 2026.

I've seen a guard on the runs a few times, and I've seen a driver trainer training a driver as well.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Was the six car test successful last week? Are the 197s cleared for the Cambrian yet?

 

[GaryNeville]

Ey? Following me seeing the pre-driver training check runs in November 2025, driven by the driver trainer(s), I was of the understanding that the first 197 Cambrian driver/crew training took place in December 2025 and continued into January and February 2026.

I've seen a guard on the runs a few times, and I've seen a driver trainer training a driver as well.

Nope, the training has not started.
There are a small number of instructors trained and an equally small number of drivers did some training as part of checking that the training course is all ok to be filled out en-masse.
Again. Small number of conductor trainers too.

Mass training will start imminently. Any sooner and crews would need retraining before September.

There were also some ‘pleasure’ journeys to Aberystwyth which had tfw and NR staff on so they could see what they’re like.

Was the six car test successful last week? Are the 197s cleared for the Cambrian yet?

I don’t work on the railway so no idea if it was successful sorry. 4cars are definitely cleared. Just crews need training.

 

[tfw756rider]

Nope, the training has not started.
There are a small number of instructors trained and an equally small number of drivers did some training as part of checking that the training course is all ok to be filled out en-masse.
Again. Small number of conductor trainers too.

Mass training will start imminently. Any sooner and crews would need retraining before September.

There were also some ‘pleasure’ journeys to Aberystwyth which had tfw and NR staff on so they could see what they’re like.

Ah, thanks. Makes sense with the 6-month thing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect that's just rumour as there's no Depot capacity to be able to maintain anymore 197's without expanding or building new Depots.
What would make more sense is buying more centre cars, expanding 2 cars to 3 cars, or even 3 cars to 4 cars.

Speculative thread on more/longer 197s: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/could-tfw-expand-the-class-197-fleet.300220/

 

[Rhydgaled]

It is reasonable to suppose that TfW want to get all the newest 197s (ETCS fitted for Cambrian Coast) thoroughly run in before a big bang switch over on Cambrian from 158s happens. On this thread way back we were given the impression it would be an overnight/over-weekend switch over. But is that still true ?.

If I recall correctly from way back on this thread (and possibly other online sources) an overnight switch from 158 to 197 was the plan at one stage, but then that plan changed and now there are suggestions it may have changed back again. Does anyone know for sure now? Seems doubtfull...

So much splitting and joining happens of trains on Cambrian Coast that it is inevitable a 197 will encounter the need to couple to a 158. I have not seen any indication that this is to become possible

Now, this is probably a pedantic point, but I'm not aware that any splitting and joining happens of trains on Cambrian Coast line on a regular basis. Maybe at Pwllheli around the start and end of the day, as unit(s) are moved to sidings for overnight stabling?

My understanding is that the Cambrian Lines are as follows:

• Cambrian Main Line (Aberystwyth (or Machynlleth) to Shrewsbury)
• Cambrian Coast Line (Dovey Junction / Machynlleth to Pwllheli - possibly also to Aberystwyth but certainly not the Machynlleth to Shrewsbury section)

While coupling a 197 to a 158 isn't going to work, removing some through workings for a timetable period (making some passengers change at Dovey Junction, Machynlleth or Shrewsbury, depending on the choice of through services removed) would allow TfW to mix 197s and 158s during a transition period, without needing them to couple to each other. I think there are even a few services between Aberystwyth/Machynlleth and Shrewsbury (mostly even-hour departures from AYW/SHR) which do not have a Pwllheli portion and are not currently advertised as running through to/from Birmingham. These could theoretically switch to class 197 operation without impacting the rest of TfW's 158-operated services (at least not as far as the service advertised to passengers is concerned).

Machynlleth depot cannot cope with a mix of fleets.

That seems to be the biggest issue to me. Although they appear to be able to stable a small number of 197s there alongside the 158s there at present, while the staff get to know the Cavity fleet, I can appreciate that they aren't going to be able to cope with maintaining a mixed fleet of around 45 units (20 odd 158s + 20 odd 197s) for any length of time.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If I recall correctly from way back on this thread (and possibly other online sources) an overnight switch from 158 to 197 was the plan at one stage, but then that plan changed and now there are suggestions it may have changed back again. Does anyone know for sure now? Seems doubtfull...


Now, this is probably a pedantic point, but I'm not aware that any splitting and joining happens of trains on Cambrian Coast line on a regular basis. Maybe at Pwllheli around the start and end of the day, as unit(s) are moved to sidings for overnight stabling?

My understanding is that the Cambrian Lines are as follows:

• Cambrian Main Line (Aberystwyth (or Machynlleth) to Shrewsbury)
• Cambrian Coast Line (Dovey Junction / Machynlleth to Pwllheli - possibly also to Aberystwyth but certainly not the Machynlleth to Shrewsbury section)

While coupling a 197 to a 158 isn't going to work, removing some through workings for a timetable period (making some passengers change at Dovey Junction, Machynlleth or Shrewsbury, depending on the choice of through services removed) would allow TfW to mix 197s and 158s during a transition period, without needing them to couple to each other. I think there are even a few services between Aberystwyth/Machynlleth and Shrewsbury (mostly even-hour departures from AYW/SHR) which do not have a Pwllheli portion and are not currently advertised as running through to/from Birmingham. These could theoretically switch to class 197 operation without impacting the rest of TfW's 158-operated services (at least not as far as the service advertised to passengers is concerned).


That seems to be the biggest issue to me. Although they appear to be able to stable a small number of 197s there alongside the 158s there at present, while the staff get to know the Cavity fleet, I can appreciate that they aren't going to be able to cope with maintaining a mixed fleet of around 45 units (20 odd 158s + 20 odd 197s) for any length of time.

I will have to remember Cambrian Coast does not include Machynlleth to Aberystwyth (wish me luck).

I can see a minority of 197s could do the simple services (even hour Aberytswyth Services that do not split/join anywhere). Then when 197s become the majority the 158s could swap and take on the simple services. A bit like the 379s taking over at Great Northern starting with the simpler services that did not require splitting/joining.

It will come down to what Machynlleth can handle. Chester is creaking so no help there.
So perhaps the switch over will have to happen fast enough that the 158s can be run into the ground (as in not getting medium/major fitter attention). Bit like the 175s as Chester switched over, but erm more successfully.

 

[XFeed]

So perhaps the switch over will have to happen fast enough that the 158s can be run into the ground (as in not getting medium/major fitter attention). Bit like the 175s as Chester switched over, but erm more successfully.

Focus may have switched a little towards 197s as 175s were close to withdrawal but they were still being maintained as per VMI as this picture from mid October 23 shows.

 

[Caaardiff]

It will come down to what Machynlleth can handle. Chester is creaking so no help there.
So perhaps the switch over will have to happen fast enough that the 158s can be run into the ground (as in not getting medium/major fitter attention). Bit like the 175s as Chester switched over, but erm more successfully.

158s are also maintained by Canton, as well as both Crewe Depots being maintenance Depots for them. There's more flexible options for the 15x fleet than there is with CAF units.

 

[tfw756rider]

Focus may have switched a little towards 197s as 175s were close to withdrawal but they were still being maintained as per VMI as this picture from mid October 23 shows.

View attachment 201059

197105 and 175105, both 105s

 

[TheEngineer]

Looks like 197025 has entered service today

 

[The_Train]

Looks like 197025 has entered service today

Looks to be working this:

Realtime Trains | 1D34 0925 Manchester Airport to Holyhead | 25/03/2026

Real-time train running information for 1D34 0925 departure from Manchester Airport to Holyhead on 25/03/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Harpo]

I can see a minority of 197s could do the simple services (even hour Aberytswyth Services that do not split/join anywhere). Then when 197s become the majority the 158s could swap and take on the simple services.

But only if there are self contained attachment-free diagrams. However, that could be forced by temporary timetable changes that have no splitting/combining at Machynlleth.

The bigger risk to a protracted change is that TfW is the ‘set swap’ TOC and the Cambrian alone has three locations (Shrewsbury, Machynlleth, Dovey Jn) where I’ve had untimetabled changes of trains in recent times. If there is a mix of unit types for any length of time, I can only see those resourcing fudges and customer disruptions getting worse.

 

[Caaardiff]

I can see a minority of 197s could do the simple services (even hour Aberytswyth Services that do not split/join anywhere). Then when 197s become the majority the 158s could swap and take on the simple services. A bit like the 379s taking over at Great Northern starting with the simpler services that did not require splitting/joining.

It would be better to have the 197's work Cambrian Coast services which is more contained in the even of issues.
The one positive is most of the ETCS units have been in service, so it's not as much a case of bedding in the 197's, it's bedding in the signalling system.

The 158's can continue on their current services with the attaching and detaching that happens at Shrewsbury.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While coupling a 197 to a 158 isn't going to work, removing some through workings for a timetable period (making some passengers change at Dovey Junction, Machynlleth or Shrewsbury, depending on the choice of through services removed)

Dyfi would be to avoid because it's unstaffed. With regard to Mach, there was a period a while back when it was pretty random whether a Pwllheli portion would work through or not regardless of what the timetable said, and with regard to Shrewsbury that's happening at the moment anyway when the wrong units end up on a diagram. So the latter two are only a mild pain.

 

[XFeed]

197105 and 175105, both 105s

It was a little poetic to have them both side by side. "The King is dead, long live the King" or is it !

 

[tfw756rider]

Looks like 197025 has entered service today

Looks to be working this:

Realtime Trains | 1D34 0925 Manchester Airport to Holyhead | 25/03/2026

Real-time train running information for 1D34 0925 departure from Manchester Airport to Holyhead on 25/03/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Thanks both In multi with 197109.

The entry-to-service of 197025 today (Wed 25/3/26) now means that 73 (of 77) 197s have been in service @Peter Sarf and everyone.

47 (of 51) 2-car 197s have been in service:
All 30 non-ETCS 2-cars (197001-002, 197004-021, 197042-051)
17 (of 21) ETCS-fitted 2-cars (197003, 197022-037)

All 26 3-car 197s have been in service:
All 12 188-seat 3-cars (197101-112)
All 14 174-seat 3-cars (197113-126)

The number of 197s still to enter service is down to 4, all of which are ETCS-fitted 2-cars:
197038-041 (all 4 of these units have been delivered)

==============================

The overall number of new Transport for Wales (TfW) trains that have been in service is now up to 108 (of 148):

73 (of 77) 197s
47 (of 51) 197/0s

• All 30 non-ETCS 197/0s
• 17 (of 21) ETCS-fitted 197/0s

All 26 197/1s

• All 12 188-seat 197/1s
• All 14 174-seat 197/1s

All 11 231s

All 24 756s
All 7 756/0s
All 17 756/1s

This leaves 40 new TfW trains still to enter service:

4 197/0s (all of which are ETCS-fitted units)
36 398s

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Mar 2026 ==

I've just been looking through (mostly) old posts in this thread, trying to work out the build year ranges of the four different 197 variants.

Does this look right?

Variant	Quantity of units	Unit numbers	Build year range
197/0 (non-ETCS)	30	197001-002, 197004-021, 197042-051	2020-2023
197/0 (ETCS-fitted)	21	197003, 197022-041	2021-2026
197/1 (188-seat)	12	197101-112	2020-2023
197/1 (174-seat)	14	197113-126	2023-2024

The build of the 174-seat 197/1s seems very quick compared to the build of the 188-seat 197/1s - I'm guessing this is because the former were no longer being assembled alongside 196s?

 

[Gordonman]

There were two test runs between Crewe South Yard and Chester in the early hours this morning 5Q31 - 5Q34 inclusive.Anyone know the allocation for these?197041?
197038 has worked 5T38 Crewe South Yard - Chester TMD for preparation to service.
There is also a 5T27 Crewe Electric Depot - Shrewsbury in for later 197027 or 158827.

 

[sd0733]

There were two test runs between Crewe South Yard and Chester in the early hours this morning 5Q31 - 5Q34 inclusive.Anyone know the allocation for these?197041?
197038 has worked 5T38 Crewe South Yard - Chester TMD for preparation to service.
There is also a 5T27 Crewe Electric Depot - Shrewsbury in for later 197027 or 158827.

Cant help with the test runs im afraid.

197038 now showing as accepted so just 039/040/041 to go.

158827 is at Crewe Electric so will be that one.

Now the latest 3 197s are in service, 197028/033/034 have been replaced in the service pool and stabled/stored at Holyhead.

197023/025/026/031/032/036/037 are the current ERTMS sets in passenger service.

 

[Gordonman]

Cant help with the test runs im afraid.

197038 now showing as accepted so just 039/040/041 to go.

158827 is at Crewe Electric so will be that one.

Now the latest 3 197s are in service, 197028/033/034 have been replaced in the service pool and stabled/stored at Holyhead.

197023/025/026/031/032/036/037 are the current ERTMS sets in passenger service.

Thank you

Can you provide locations for 197027 and 197035 please?

Are 197024 197029 and 197030 still at Shrewsbury?

 

[tfw756rider]

Are 197024 197029 and 197030 still at Shrewsbury?

197024+197029+197030 were seen in Machynlleth sidings yesterday (Wed 25/3/26) by someone I know (they were still there from the recent 6-car runs) - I'm not aware of them having since gone back to Shrewsbury, let alone still being at Shrewsbury!

 

[sd0733]

Thank you

Can you provide locations for 197027 and 197035 please?

Are 197024 197029 and 197030 still at Shrewsbury?

Both shown as at Holyhead currently.

As @tfw756rider says, the 3 of them are all shown as at Machynnlleth.

 

[Gordonman]

Thanks again.

That's six units back at Holyhead now.

Today's moves -

5W40 Crewe South Yard - Llandudno Junction and 5N42 return.Reported as 197041 rather than the expected 197040.I would have expected 197041 to run as a Q path and when did it move from LNWR to South Yard

5H99 Holyhead sidings - Chester TMD managed to work from the sidings to Holyhead station before being cancelled and returned to the sidings

 

[nineteenninety]

There were two test runs between Crewe South Yard and Chester in the early hours this morning 5Q31 - 5Q34 inclusive.Anyone know the allocation for these?197041?
197038 has worked 5T38 Crewe South Yard - Chester TMD for preparation to service.
There is also a 5T27 Crewe Electric Depot - Shrewsbury in for later 197027 or 158827.

It was 197041, it was out on a brakes/traction commissioning run.

 

[158822]

Are any Cambrian test runs planned for next week does anyone know?

 

[tfw756rider]

Are any Cambrian test runs planned for next week does anyone know?

I can't see any. By the way, if you want to look for yourself, go on Realtime Trains and enter into the Quick Search box "xmc detailed" (without quotes), change to "All day" and go through the week on the date selector, looking for "3C" headcodes.

The above will cover the usual Machynlleth-based runs, whereas for anything Shrewsbury/Crewe-only based, you'd additionally need to enter into the Quick Search box "wlp detailed" and filter by "Non-passenger services". "3Q" headcodes were used for the ETCS mileage accumulation runs.

@sd0733 will sometimes very kindly inform us that the runs are on the internal system before they go out to the publicly viewable data.

 

[sd0733]

@sd0733 will sometimes very kindly inform us that the runs are on the internal system before they go out to the publicly viewable data.

As far as im aware those 6 car runs were the last of the test runs and the sets are there for depot/ststic training.
Full crew training starts soon so wouldnt expect a huge amout to happen until then.