What exactly were brake vans?

[Merle Haggard]

I remember that some LNER design passenger full brakes (BGs) were converted to air (dual?) braking for use with Liner Trains (as they were called then) and fitted with stoves for the guard. One day, in the early 1960s, I was standing beneath the Royal Border Bridge and watched a light Brush Type 4 (Later Cl. 47) cross the bridge. A few seconds later, one of these converted BGs crossed the bridge on its own! From my angle of view, I couldn't see the empty container flats separating them.

When guards were still required to be at the rear there was an interesting experiment by Freight Liners Ltd; a 10' container fitted with a seat inside and window loaded on the back of the last flat. I'm not sure how the connection from the brake pipe to an application handle was made. I saw one on the West Coast, it may well have been unique.
It wasn't very popular with guards, to put it mildly, and as I recollect that's when BGs started to be used. I only remember the LMS (30000/31000s) ones but my observations were mainly LMR. They were branded for Freightliner train use and overall blue. I recollect. possibly unreliably, that before these experiments ordinary 4 wheel freight brakevans were used.

 

[Gloster]

When guards were still required to be at the rear there was an interesting experiment by Freight Liners Ltd; a 10' container fitted with a seat inside and window loaded on the back of the last flat. I'm not sure how the connection from the brake pipe to an application handle was made. I saw one on the West Coast, it may well have been unique.
It wasn't very popular with guards, to put it mildly, and as I recollect that's when BGs started to be used. I only remember the LMS (30000/31000s) ones but my observations were mainly LMR. They were branded for Freightliner train use and overall blue. I recollect. possibly unreliably, that before these experiments ordinary 4 wheel freight brakevans were used.

I believe that six were built and introduced in 1965…and withdrawn in 1965. The guards were thrown about so much that management quickly realised that the containers were a totally unacceptable solution.

 

[MarkyT]

I believe that six were built and introduced in 1965…and withdrawn in 1965. The guards were thrown about so much that management quickly realised that the containers were a totally unacceptable solution.

The NRM has one on display at York.

 

[marsker]

Looking at the list in Longworth’s Mark 1 & 2 book, I can’t see any coaches that were ex-LNER. There were a number of vehicles that appear to be of LM-design and one Bulleid Corridor Brake Second, but most were Mark 1 former Non-Corridor Brake Seconds. Some of the LM-design vehicles may have been Full Brakes, but I am not sure of the number series.

The ones I remember seeing were wooden bodied BGs and in the standard maroon livery.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I believe that six were built and introduced in 1965…and withdrawn in 1965. The guards were thrown about so much that management quickly realised that the containers were a totally unacceptable solution.

Thanks.
I commuted into Euston in the 1970s - 1990s. In the days of the 75 mph AM10s I recall occasionally travelling alongside a (75mph) Freightliner over a distance. Watching the ride of their flats at full speed was 'interesting', the body swooping and wallowing around - and twistlocks do allow more movement. On the verge of frightening just to see...

 

[Gloster]

Thanks.
I commuted into Euston in the 1970s - 1990s. In the days of the 75 mph AM10s I recall occasionally travelling alongside a (75mph) Freightliner over a distance. Watching the ride of their flats at full speed was 'interesting', the body swooping and wallowing around - and twistlocks do allow more movement. On the verge of frightening just to see...

Looking at a couple of photos, one of which is linked to the thread ‘Did the UK have cabooses?’ from last October, it looks to me as though there were fixed pipes on the end of the container by the gangway that ran from the guard’s valve in the cabin and these were presumably connected to the standard brake-pipes on the end of the rear wagon. As there don’t seem to be any close-up photos of the containers in service this is my assumption, but it seems to be the simplest and most logical. The container was intended to be capable of being lifted on and off the end wagon, so this would allow it to be quickly disconnected from the brake-pipes and avoided any alteration to the wagon.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Looking at a couple of photos, one of which is linked to the thread ‘Did the UK have cabooses?’ from last October, it looks to me as though there were fixed pipes on the end of the container by the gangway that ran from the guard’s valve in the cabin and these were presumably connected to the standard brake-pipes on the end of the rear wagon. As there don’t seem to be any close-up photos of the containers in service this is my assumption, but it seems to be the simplest and most logical. The container was intended to be capable of being lifted on and off the end wagon, so this would allow it to be quickly disconnected from the brake-pipes and avoided any alteration to the wagon.

Thanks for that.
Logically on arrival at a terminal the container would need to be moved to the opposite end of the train for the return working so attaching and detaching the connection would have to be easy.
I've also had my memory jogged and I have an idea that one of these guards accommodation containers remained on the ground at Willesden, nearer the main line, in the comparatively recent past - possibly as accommodation for staff.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thanks.
I commuted into Euston in the 1970s - 1990s. In the days of the 75 mph AM10s I recall occasionally travelling alongside a (75mph) Freightliner over a distance. Watching the ride of their flats at full speed was 'interesting', the body swooping and wallowing around - and twistlocks do allow more movement. On the verge of frightening just to see...

Snap! I'm a little younger; my late-1970s and 1980s trips on 310s (AM10) to London (my knees on the front saloon-seat, watching the "driver's eye" view, fascinated me), were all for leisure. I too was enthralled whenever we played "chase and race" with a Freightliner set.

 

[Gloster]

Thanks for that.
Logically on arrival at a terminal the container would need to be moved to the opposite end of the train for the return working so attaching and detaching the connection would have to be easy.
I've also had my memory jogged and I have an idea that one of these guards accommodation containers remained on the ground at Willesden, nearer the main line, in the comparatively recent past - possibly as accommodation for staff.

I think that in addition to the NRM example I read that there is a second somewhere; Pickering, perhaps. Could the Willesden one have been moved there? If there is a second one, considering their brief and unlamented life, two out of six ain’t bad.

 

[Rescars]

Reverting to the OP, there must have been many occasions when the guard's brake was unable to control or stop an unfitted freight train, especially if a coupling broke. An especially hair-raising incident recounted by the great D L Smith took place just after the end of WW2, when unwanted munitions were being transported to Cairnryan for dumping in the deep ocean. Apparently a munitions train broke its coupling on the bank south of Girvan and the guard found himself unable to hold 14 wagons loaded with poison gas shells. The first Girvan knew of the matter was when the sound of the runaway was heard rapidly approaching the station. Unfortunately, lined up at the foot of the bank and ready to go was a second freight train which included a further nine wagonloads of poison gas shells. Some quick thinking and rapid action by the signaller diverted the runaway successfully, thus saving himself and the rest of Girvan from a major catastrophe. Transporting poison gas shells in unfitted wagons might make for an interesting risk assessment case study in the 21st century!