Birmingham new street air quality

[HC1998]

What needs to be done at Birmingham new street to improve the air quality? Passed through this afternoon and the entire place reeks of diesel and the air feels physically thick. It’s absolutely awful

 

[Bletchleyite]

Voyagers are the problem so...

 

[WTT Gremlin]

What needs to be done at Birmingham new street to improve the air quality? Passed through this afternoon and the entire place reeks of diesel and the air feels physically thick. It’s absolutely awful

A very large amount of 25kV OHLE, predominantly to the East, North-East, West, & South West... indeed the best solution would be checking in all directions and installing wherever it is not found. Leeds to Bristol via Derby and Birmingham and Shrewsbury to Peterborough via Birmingham and Leicester would be good places to start.

 

[dk1]

Still better these days than it used to be.

 

[Snow1964]

When the station was rebuilt (1960s) they took care to ensure all the stationary loco positions were in the open to avoid exhaust fumes.

Voyagers are the problem because their exhausts are spread along the train including under the covered part by the escalators. Solution is clearly remove the voyagers.

But realistically need the fast lines near Kings Norton electrified, and the section to Water Orton electrified and a ban on diesels within few miles of the station. bi-modes with diesels off would be ok.

I suspect the modern West Midlands DMUs could cascade elsewhere, with BEMUs taking their place. (not sure if bi-modes could replace the limited TfW trains though).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't find the modern DMUs a massive problem. There aren't many of them, they aren't very long, they don't dwell very long (and the Shrewsburys often use 4C which is outside anyway) and they have quite clean emissions.

158s aren't ideal but they only pass through briefly and will be gone soon.

The problem is Voyagers. It only stinks when one is there.

 

[dk1]

I don't find the modern DMUs a massive problem. There aren't many of them, they aren't very long, they don't dwell very long (and the Shrewsburys often use 4C which is outside anyway) and they have quite clean emissions.

158s aren't ideal but they only pass through briefly and will be gone soon.

The problem is Voyagers. It only stinks when one is there.

Shame the battery conversion for the Voyager fleet at stations never got off the ground. Cant see anything changing now on their final 15 years or so of life.

 

[Mike Machin]

Shame the battery conversion for the Voyager fleet at stations never got off the ground. Cant see anything changing now on their final 15 years or so of life.

It’s beyond time that these filthy, noisy, shuddering abominations were sent for recycling. With the increasing take up of EVs and new electric bus fleets, rail is fast becoming the archaic dirty option for travel in some areas.

 

[TheWierdOne]

It’s beyond time that these filthy, noisy, shuddering abominations were sent for recycling. With the increasing take up of EVs and new electric bus fleets, rail is fast becoming the archaic dirty option for travel in some areas.

There will always need to be high-capacity transport options. The only thing batteries solve is tailpipe emissions, the societal impact of car-dependency still remains.

 

[dk1]

It’s beyond time that these filthy, noisy, shuddering abominations were sent for recycling. With the increasing take up of EVs and new electric bus fleets, rail is fast becoming the archaic dirty option for travel in some areas.

Possibly around 2035-2040 but until then it is what it is.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

A very large amount of 25kV OHLE, predominantly to the East, North-East, West, & South West... indeed the best solution would be checking in all directions and installing wherever it is not found. Leeds to Bristol via Derby and Birmingham and Shrewsbury to Peterborough via Birmingham and Leicester would be good places to start.

Absolutely definitely. It is criminal in my opinion that it has not been done.

 

[Class172]

If anyone is interested in some deeper literature on the matter, there are published studies into understanding and mitigating air pollution within New St station, for example:

• Evaluation of air quality at the Birmingham New Street Railway Station
• Proposed interventions to reduce noxious air pollution at Birmingham New Street station
• Intervention of an Upgraded Ventilation System and Effects of the COVID-19 Lockdown on Air Quality at Birmingham New Street Railway Station

 

[voyagerdude220]

Is there any realistic/practical way of configuring the 220/221s so that they only need say 1 or 2 engines running in the Birmingham New Street area, given the relatively low line speeds around the Station then restart them all once the train has exited the tunnel or the Station and proceed as usual? (Similar to the Eco mode on 185s)

 

[Snow1964]

Is there any realistic/practical way of configuring the 220/221s so that they only need say 1 or 2 engines running in the Birmingham New Street area, given the relatively low line speeds around the Station then restart them all once the train has exited the tunnel or the Station and proceed as usual? (Similar to the Eco mode on 185s)

I think there has been a recent modification (which might still be in progress) to allow this, although it was done for fuel saving, not emissions reductions.

The QSK-19R have gone through various emissions standards, however when the trains were introduced stage 1 and stage 2 for non-road diesel engines did not apply to railway train engines, so were built with negligible emissions equipment. (If hear of tier, rather than stage, then it is a US designation, and Cummins now makes a tier 4 version of this quantum class engine.)

Although stage 1 (from 1999) and stage 2 (2002-2004 depending on power) didn't apply to train engines, so emissions at time of build could be worse than stage 1 standards. For info stage 1 engines of 559kw were subject to max 5.0g/kwh Carbon monoxide, 1.3g/kwh for HC, 9.2g/kwh NOx, 0.54g/kwh PM, so the voyager engines could have dirty emissions.

If the engines were new today would be subject to stage V (five) which was introduced in 2021 and for railcars is 3.5g/kwh for CO, 0.19g/kwh for HC, 2.0g/kwh for NOx, 0.015g/kwh for PM, 1x10^12g/kw PN (particle number, or ultrafine particles).

In blunt terms a new train to current standards would only be allowed less than 7% of the emissions that was allowed when voyager diesel engines were built.
Or to put it another way, about 35 modern 2car DMUs have similar emissions to a single 5car voyager.

 

[duffield]

It’s beyond time that these filthy, noisy, shuddering abominations were sent for recycling.
...

Given the attitude of successive governments to Cross Country I fully expect we will be stuck with the Voyager fleet until they literally fall apart.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the attitude of successive governments to Cross Country I fully expect we will be stuck with the Voyager fleet until they literally fall apart.

Particularly as the wretched things are just being refurbished. An order should have been placed for new bi-modes and a very light (Avanti level) refresh should have been done to tide them over another 5 years or so while that fleet arrives.

Mind you, SWR have been good at heavily refurbishing units then binning them off...

 

[Magdalia]

Still better these days than it used to be.

When the station was rebuilt (1960s) they took care to ensure all the stationary loco positions were in the open to avoid exhaust fumes.

In the 1970s and 1980s the locos were not the pollution issue, it was the first generation DMUs. It got much worse when the Cross City service started (1960s New Street was not designed for that), especially as Tyseley got some fairly ropey cast offs from other regions to increase the size of their fleet. The Etches Park Swindon cross country units were fairly gruesome too.

 

[dk1]

In the 1970s and 1980s the locos were not the pollution issue, it was the first generation DMUs. It got much worse when the Cross City service started (1960s New Street was not designed for that), especially as Tyseley got some fairly ropey cast offs from other regions to increase the size of their fleet. The Etches Park Swindon cross country units were fairly gruesome too.

Tell me about. Some fantastically impressive exhaust emissions if first gen DMUs had been idling which they often did for hours incase they wouldn’t restart.

 

[MalaiseForever]

We spend a fortune at New Street on extractor fans and air filtration/purification and the like. But it’s all sticking plasters until no diesels run through.

 

[duffield]

Given my expectation that the Voyagers will be flogged to death for another 15 years or more, I wonder if they could be fitted with (in an existing space) a tiny low power battery capability just enough to tow the unit into and out of the platforms at New Street and power the lights etc. while at platform, with the diesel engines all shut down? Or is that an absurd idea?

 

[dk1]

Given my expectation that the Voyagers will be flogged to death for another 15 years or more, I wonder if they could be fitted with (in an existing space) with a tiny low power battery capability just enough to tow the unit into and out of the platforms at New Street and power the lights etc. while at platform, with the diesel engines all shut down? Or is that an absurd idea?

That’s what Was proposed a couple or so years back but wasn’t taken forward.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Given my expectation that the Voyagers will be flogged to death for another 15 years or more, I wonder if they could be fitted with (in an existing space) a tiny low power battery capability just enough to tow the unit into and out of the platforms at New Street and power the lights etc. while at platform, with the diesel engines all shut down? Or is that an absurd idea?

Or do something similar to what I posted earlier in this thread- Setup the 220/221s so they only have one engine running per 4/5 car in the New Street area, then once clear of the Station, fire up all of the turned off engines.

 

[duffield]

That’s what Was proposed a couple or so years back but wasn’t taken forward.

So I assume the DfT effectively vetoed it as "not value for money"?

 

[dk1]

So I assume the DfT effectively vetoed it as "not value for money"?

I suppose so. Same with Project Thor several years earlier. Needs to be cost effective.

 

[WTT Gremlin]

Given my expectation that the Voyagers will be flogged to death for another 15 years or more, I wonder if they could be fitted with (in an existing space) a tiny low power battery capability just enough to tow the unit into and out of the platforms at New Street and power the lights etc. while at platform, with the diesel engines all shut down? Or is that an absurd idea?

Or do something similar to what I posted earlier in this thread- Setup the 220/221s so they only have one engine running per 4/5 car in the New Street area, then once clear of the Station, fire up all of the turned off engines.

Beyond any cost implication, both of these possible ideas would come with performance risks both in terms of reduced power levels during acceleration, and increased load/wear on drivetrain components from stop-start.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Beyond any cost implication, both of these possible ideas would come with performance risks both in terms of reduced power levels during acceleration, and increased load/wear on drivetrain components from stop-start.

You're right. I wonder how much fuel the Eco Mode system which Class 185s use saves them. Could something similar to this be fitted to 220/221s which automatically turns all but one engine off whilst it's at New Street/exiting the Station?

 

[WTT Gremlin]

You're right. I wonder how much fuel the Eco Mode system which Class 185s use saves them. Could something similar to this be fitted to 220/221s which automatically turns all but one engine off whilst it's at New Street/exiting the Station?

Over the right ground/with long enough gaps between savings can become of sufficient value. But it requires factors such as the route, calling pattern, timetable and technical choices, to work together.

Acceleration and rising gradients are when you want/need the power, whilst constant speed on the flat takes significantly less power and therefore is where the most savings can be realised. The longer that lower power demand sections is, the bigger the saving, hence why calling pattern also makes a difference. And bear in mind that a comparable EMU will accelerate significantly better than DMU, so loosing acceleration performance will hit the ability to maintain timings, or even require them to be slackened.

Any system would need to be properly engineered into the drivetrain, rather than being just an add on, otherwise things like engines being out due to starter motors not designed for the use case conking out.

Things such as heat cycling and heat sink can have interesting effects on various bits of the drivetrain, whilst not having a mechanical linkage between ICE and wheel means cannot even just bump start them.

 

[AlastairFraser]

We spend a fortune at New Street on extractor fans and air filtration/purification and the like. But it’s all sticking plasters until no diesels run through.

Perhaps something could be done with stopping positions?
A lot of the eastern ends of platforms seem to be outside, so perhaps Voyager stopping positions could be modified to locate at least part of the train outside as far as possible during scheduled stops.

 

[limer]

What needs to be done at Birmingham new street to improve the air quality?

Build the Bordesley Chords and move the NE-SW XC Voyager services to Moor Street.

Kings Norton and Water Orton both need to be remodelled as part of the Midlands Rail Hub, and that remodelling will happen before more OHLE goes up over the rails. So we should be able to divert the Voyagers away from New Street and into Moor Street many years before we've finished building OHLE from Leeds to Bristol and ordered new EMUs/BEMUs for the XC routes.

 

[Harpo]

Getting to causes, the (supposed) second city has 8 significant radial routes* without electrification from its main stations. The fully electrified route(s) to Wolverhampton has 5 diesel services per hour.

The answer to the problem is not ‘wait until Voyagers die’ or ‘switch off some engines’. (DMUs won’t be able to leave on one engine.)

* Derby, Leicester, Leamington, Cheltenham, Worcester/Hereford, Shrewsbury, plus Stratford and Stourbridge.