Additional routes that could justify a 24hr per day train service?

[Iskra]

Any rail line with links to a major airport should have 24 hour services in my opinion.

Stansted Express with additional overnight stops in Cheshunt and Broxbourne would be incredibly useful (like the 4:40am Liverpool Street to Stansted service) at the hourly frequency offered by Thameslink to all stops between Gatwick and Luton. Would really help alleviate the night bus stopping short at Waltham Cross, while towns like Hertford and Harlow essentially enjoy a 24 hour bus service on routes like 724 and 510. St Albans gets both the train and 724 bus!

With Heathrow, the Elizabeth Line from Paddington (high level) would probably make the most sense. A handful of stopping services operate overnight to/ from Reading, so Heathrow would make sense.

Birmingham to Coventry is probably fine with its overnight bus.
Agree with Liverpool to Manchester but wondering if a service to Leeds would also make sense, especially from Manchester Airport.
Also agree with Edinburgh to Glasgow, but not sure what line would make the most sense to have night journeys. Maybe via Falkirk High?

And given the journey time of many Intercity journeys, I'd say the Cornwall and Highlands sleepers out of London is probably about right, maybe a sleeper to Holyhead to catch the early ferry to Dublin would be useful. Connections between trains and ferries to Ireland really leave a lot to be desired.

The real missed opportunity given the Eurotunnel is the lack of continental sleepers (Nightstar), which are growing in number in mainland Europe every year. Board in London, wake up in the South of France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Austria. Maybe even further afield to Spain, Sweden (via Denmark), Poland or anywhere in Eastern Europe within 1 day? The geography and infrastructure makes this possible, just needs ambition. Done the right way and a ton of shorter flights are no longer necessary. The failure to link HS1 and HS2 is a real missed opportunity too. As such journeys could've been possible from any number of cities on the WCML, ECML and other main lines with such a connection!

There is already a Manchester-Leeds-York overnight service, but otherwise a great post

 

[The Planner]

Close it for a week or two a year? Close monday/tuesday/wednesday earlier? Bi-di / single line working if services are hourly (+ run via Seven Sisters on the southern bit) - other countries manage it in various ways.

indeed - there needs to be allowances for maintenance but surely as a industry/country we can be a bit more inventive than "close both tracks every night".

And that is potentially fine under GBR, but expecting TOC/FOCs under the current position to accept that is far from easy. SLW is normally avoided as we are risk adverse.

 

[N1]

Agree however that using Glasgow Central rather than Queen Street offers a larger choice of alternative routes.

I agree Glasgow - Edinburgh should have a 24hr service, but I would have thought Queen St was better. All routes can use Queen St, but via Falkirk High cant use Central. Plus Queen St is the smaller station so probably easier to staff overnight (although you still have to staff Haymarket and Waverley). My opinion would be start with Thu, Fri & Sat nights, and try and move longer overnight possessions to Sunday night.

 

[blimmo]

WCML-wise I don't particularly care about 24hr service I just want later Saturday services. I know they need to do trackwork at some point but the last train that goes north of Northampton on a Saturday is at 2142! Even if it had to be cancelled often I would really like an attempt to run something around 2300 or so.

 

[fgwrich]

I’d suggest London Waterloo to Basingstoke, with intermediate stops at the SWML stations with four or more platforms (Vauxhall, Clapham Junction, Wimbledon*, Surbiton, Woking).

*would need the gates to the fast line platforms being unlocked.

I rather agree with this, I do have a large number of friends and colleagues who are shift workers who do unfortunately have to make use of the M3 corridor for most days of the week. Reading has also benefitted from having a near 24hr service (though surprisingly not provided by TfL / CrossRail). Even an every couple of hours stopper wouldn’t go amiss.

 

[The exile]

I agree Glasgow - Edinburgh should have a 24hr service, but I would have thought Queen St was better. All routes can use Queen St, but via Falkirk High cant use Central. Plus Queen St is the smaller station so probably easier to staff overnight (although you still have to staff Haymarket and Waverley). My opinion would be start with Thu, Fri & Sat nights, and try and move longer overnight possessions to Sunday night.

Waverley is presumably staffed nearly 24hr/day anyway thanks to the sleepers. At the Glasgow end running in to one of the low-levels might make sense. Central can clearly be accessed when the HL is closed (as now) - can Queen Street?

 

[WTT Gremlin]

And given the journey time of many Intercity journeys, I'd say the Cornwall and Highlands sleepers out of London is probably about right, maybe a sleeper to Holyhead to catch the early ferry to Dublin would be useful. Connections between trains and ferries to Ireland really leave a lot to be desired.

The real missed opportunity given the Eurotunnel is the lack of continental sleepers (Nightstar), which are growing in number in mainland Europe every year. Board in London, wake up in the South of France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Austria. Maybe even further afield to Spain, Sweden (via Denmark), Poland or anywhere in Eastern Europe within 1 day? The geography and infrastructure makes this possible, just needs ambition. Done the right way and a ton of shorter flights are no longer necessary. The failure to link HS1 and HS2 is a real missed opportunity too. As such journeys could've been possible from any number of cities on the WCML, ECML and other main lines with such a connection!

Ferry connections are poor because there wasn't/isn't the demand to make them worth while.

Comparing something on the continent to using the Channel Tunnel is a false equivalence due to the safety requirements of the tunnel meaning that specific rolling stock would be required for the purpose, that will get used at most for 2 journeys/day. HS1 to HS2 link would be completely pointless for passenger services to/from the continent, for the same reason why further than London international passengers services won't happen, being the well known issue of having border controls and segregated 'rail side' facilities. This wasn't a practical proposition when the Eurostar was shinny and new (hence neither the Regional Eurostar or Nightstar starting), and major stations haven't got less busy in the ~30 years since so there is even less space available.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2026 ==

For a WTT 24hr service to operate without fundamentally changing how engineering access & maintenance is planned (note that the these planning timescales make WTT planning appear short notice), there would have to be at least 2 routes available (FL/SL on the WCML would count for this). These services would only call at stations which are on, or have a direct equivalent on all routings, and the trains would be planned in the WTT for the slowest route.

This is why when the Fast Lines between Euston and Milton Keynes are open during the Section 4 timings for a 2 track railway, you can get services arriving ~10 early and just sitting there until the booked departure time.

 

[William3000]

I don't agree. Stansted has many many flights leaving at 6am. Budget airlines are not especially convenient in that regard. Luton and Gatwick have services too, this makes sense.

I would combine it with a Cambridge service to provide 24h service to a few places on the line, eg..

Liverpool St - Tottenham Hale (24h Vic line Fri/Sat helps this) - Cheshunt - Harlow - BS - Stansted - Cambridge S / C (- Ely)

I agree there could be demand especially for the early flights and given Stansted Airport passenger numbers are set to increase. A class 755 might be sufficient for a half-hourly service south to London and an hourly service north to Cambridge calling at London Liverpool St, Tottenham Hale, Cheshunt, Broxbourne, Harlow Town, Bishop’s Stortford, Stansted Airport, Audley End, Whittlesford Parkway, Cambridge South, Cambridge.

 

[BeijingDave]

Some of these short distance proposals would just attract loads of late night revellers, which may be why they are not done.

Birmingham-Coventry being an obvious example. When I lived in Coventry, New Street at 4.40am on a Saturday morning used to be a horrendous mess of Coventry-bound late night revellers waiting for Sbarro to open and the first train home.

A Manchester-Liverpool 2/3am train would be a black eye and vomit express if it stopped at Warrington and Widnes, as it would just encourage late night drinking in the 'big city' for Warringtonians.

 

[WTT Gremlin]

Some of these short distance proposals would just attract loads of late night revellers, which may be why they are not done.

Birmingham-Coventry being an obvious example. When I lived in Coventry, New Street at 4.40am on a Saturday morning used to be a horrendous mess of Coventry-bound late night revellers waiting for Sbarro to open and the first train home.

A Manchester-Liverpool 2/3am train would be a black eye and vomit express if it stopped at Warrington and Widnes, as it would just encourage late night drinking in the 'big city' for Warringtonians.

Providing people on a night out trains home sounds like an exceedingly good idea… especially as currently there are many evening leisure activities (that don’t necessarily involving drinking) which finish late enough to make using the railway either not feasible or practical.

And even in cases where people may wish to drink alcohol, convenient rail services provides another transport option… and over a distant that it might be the difference between someone choosing to chance it behind the wheel of a car… or not…

 

[Bletchleyite]

A Manchester-Liverpool 2/3am train would be a black eye and vomit express if it stopped at Warrington and Widnes, as it would just encourage late night drinking in the 'big city' for Warringtonians.

On a Saturday it probably would, but on other nights much less so. The 0139 Euston-MKC is generally pretty quiet, and the one time I did use that Liverpool-Manchester one that was quiet too.

 

[blimmo]

Some of these short distance proposals would just attract loads of late night revellers, which may be why they are not done.

Birmingham-Coventry being an obvious example. When I lived in Coventry, New Street at 4.40am on a Saturday morning used to be a horrendous mess of Coventry-bound late night revellers waiting for Sbarro to open and the first train home.

A Manchester-Liverpool 2/3am train would be a black eye and vomit express if it stopped at Warrington and Widnes, as it would just encourage late night drinking in the 'big city' for Warringtonians.

I'm not sure the idea that we should not offer a train service *because* of the potential demand really agrees with the principle of the railway as a public service.

 

[Djgr]

A Manchester-Liverpool 2/3am train would be a black eye and vomit express if it stopped at Warrington and Widnes, as it would just encourage late night drinking in the 'big city' for Warringtonians.

Not sure that much encouragement is required!

But probably best not to commit to stops between the cities, to provide flexibility to use either route.

As stated above, the obviously useful 24 hour services are those to major airports.

 

[fwsmVor]

Guildford-Gatwick. Heathrow gets the RailAir 24hrs, so Guildford people are a proven market for all-night airport services.

 

[BeijingDave]

I'm not sure the idea that we should not offer a train service *because* of the potential demand really agrees with the principle of the railway as a public service.

I agree, but if the crowd is reckless and intimidating to other customers and staff, it is unfortunately a major disincentive to run it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, but if the crowd is reckless and intimidating to other customers and staff, it is unfortunately a major disincentive to run it.

And also if it means that unit is likely to be covered in vomit and so cannot be used for service in the morning.

I would very much not recommend using the 0330 MKC-EUS on a Saturday morning, as it's the unit that worked the Friday 0139 down...that one doesn't go to bed.

 

[notspy]

0018 LIV-MCV becomes 0018 LIV-MIA via MAN arriving into the airport at 0107 from the May timetable so will be interesting to see what the demand for late night/early morning airport travellers is. May be used by people for very early morning flights.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

London-Oxford
Two possible routes, (Paddington via Reading or Marylebone via High Wycombe) with little overlap means that if one route is closed, the other could still remain open.

The Oxford Tube coach service between London and Oxford runs all night, so there's obviously some demand on this route.
There did used to be a ticket which would let you take the train one way and coach the other, but don't know if it still exists.

Ideally you'd run London-Birmingham overnight as well via either Chiltern or WCML.
However, as it stands, both routes shut much earlier on a Saturday, the one night there would probably be the most demand!

 

[cle]

London-Oxford
Two possible routes, (Paddington via Reading or Marylebone via High Wycombe) with little overlap means that if one route is closed, the other could still remain open.

The Oxford Tube coach service between London and Oxford runs all night, so there's obviously some demand on this route.
There did used to be a ticket which would let you take the train one way and coach the other, but don't know if it still exists.

Ideally you'd run London-Birmingham overnight as well via either Chiltern or WCML.
However, as it stands, both routes shut much earlier on a Saturday, the one night there would probably be the most demand!

You could always do London - Wycombe - Bicester - Oxford - reverse - Banbury... Birmingham at night, kill a few birds... (similar to the London-Stansted-Cambridge idea - a bit lengthier!)

 

[higthomas]

Guildford-Gatwick. Heathrow gets the RailAir 24hrs, so Guildford people are a proven market for all-night airport services.

Well this one they're actually trialling!

GWR planning overnight Reading-Gatwick Airport trains

Great Western Railway has applied for a four-month trial of overnight services on the North Downs Line.

www.railmagazine.com

 

[WTT Gremlin]

Services ending earlier on Saturday is partially due to this traditionally having been a relatively quieter time, and largely due to the maintenance opportunity enabled by lower demand on a Sunday morning. The problem with changing from Sat-Sun is that there is no overnight period where demand is lower both the evening before and morning after. Due to the effectively fixed time cost to take/give up a possession, extending Saturday evening services equals a direct loss in time available for work to be undertaken.

 

[dk1]

Close it for a week or two a year? Close monday/tuesday/wednesday earlier? Bi-di / single line working if services are hourly (+ run via Seven Sisters on the southern bit) - other countries manage it in various ways.

In the UK we no longer permit SLW whilst engineering work takes place on the adjacent running line. Was something commonplace in my early railway career but certainly not for the last 10-15 years.

 

[aron2smith]

I agree there could be demand especially for the early flights and given Stansted Airport passenger numbers are set to increase. A class 755 might be sufficient for a half-hourly service south to London and an hourly service north to Cambridge calling at London Liverpool St, Tottenham Hale, Cheshunt, Broxbourne, Harlow Town, Bishop’s Stortford, Stansted Airport, Audley End, Whittlesford Parkway, Cambridge South, Cambridge.

I made the mistake of using a late flight (9pm) from Dublin using Ryanair last year, it was over 2 hours late for a flight that should've taken an hour! Just missing the last train that connected with a service that stops at Cheshunt. The taxi was £81! Luckily could share with someone going the same way, but overnight trains would've been really appreciated and useful and far more affordable. Especially as Harlow gets overnight buses and Stratford gets overnight coaches from both Flixbus and National Express. The railway should offer at least a basic hourly service by comparison.

On that flight, a group of people had to get back to Norwich from Stansted, I dread to think what they paid for a taxi!...
So overnight to Cambridge may be the right call.

In general, I don't understand why Greater Anglia don't run later trains on the WAML.

Last Liverpool Street train to Bishop's Stortford/ Cambridge is just before Midnight.
Neighbouring lines last departures -
Weaver Line to Chingford - 1:03am
Greater Anglia to Southend - 12:50am
Greater Anglia to Colchester - 12:46am

Kings Cross to Hertford North calling at Cuffley - 1:10am. Used this service a few times, always a good 10 to 15 people get off in Cuffley every time I used it despite it being a village!

Euston seems to have some very late early hours departures as far north as Milton Keynes and even Northampton on occasion too.

These all reach their end destinations between 1:30am and 2am.

Given the busyness of the line and the airport, it's need a better more suitable timetable and should be top priority if they are serious about increasing the usage of Stansted by 20 million passengers a year on top of today's ridership.

 

[WTT Gremlin]

I made the mistake of using a late flight (9pm) from Dublin using Ryanair last year, it was over 2 hours late for a flight that should've taken an hour! Just missing the last train that connected with a service that stops at Cheshunt. The taxi was £81! Luckily could share with someone going the same way, but overnight trains would've been really appreciated and useful and far more affordable. Especially as Harlow gets overnight buses and Stratford gets overnight coaches from both Flixbus and National Express. The railway should offer at least a basic hourly service by comparison.

On that flight, a group of people had to get back to Norwich from Stansted, I dread to think what they paid for a taxi!...
So overnight to Cambridge may be the right call.

In general, I don't understand why Greater Anglia don't run later trains on the WAML.

Last Liverpool Street train to Bishop's Stortford/ Cambridge is just before Midnight.
Neighbouring lines last departures -
Weaver Line to Chingford - 1:03am
Greater Anglia to Southend - 12:50am
Greater Anglia to Colchester - 12:46am

Kings Cross to Hertford North calling at Cuffley - 1:10am. Used this service a few times, always a good 10 to 15 people get off in Cuffley every time I used it despite it being a village!

Euston seems to have some very late early hours departures as far north as Milton Keynes and even Northampton on occasion too.

These all reach their end destinations between 1:30am and 2am.

Given the busyness of the line and the airport, it's need a better more suitable timetable and should be top priority if they are serious about increasing the usage of Stansted by 20 million passengers a year on top of today's ridership.

As per most instances because of overnight engineering access windows.

Comparing the WCML or ECML south of Huntingdon to the WAML isn't like for like, as the WAML is only a 2 track railway north of Cheshunt.

So given the tunnel is only a single track, it would need either an extension from Braintree to the Airport or quad-tracking Cheshunt to between the airport junctions, doubling the tunnel and having the ability to reverse and run via the north curve.

Cambridge would be more practical in that it would 'only' need the linking of cyclical maintenance between East Coast and Anglia routes, if the quad-track arrangement between Shepreth Branch Jn and Cambridge option had been progressed.

 

[aron2smith]

As per most instances because of overnight engineering access windows.

Comparing the WCML or ECML south of Huntingdon to the WAML isn't like for like, as the WAML is only a 2 track railway north of Cheshunt.

So given the tunnel is only a single track, it would need either an extension from Braintree to the Airport or quad-tracking Cheshunt to between the airport junctions, doubling the tunnel and having the ability to reverse and run via the north curve.

Cambridge would be more practical in that it would 'only' need the linking of cyclical maintenance between East Coast and Anglia routes, if the quad-track arrangement between Shepreth Branch Jn and Cambridge option had been progressed.

You are talking about a different section to me. Cuffley is on the Hertford Loop Line, most services go from Moorgate, but the very early and very late journeys go to/ from King's Cross. After Alexandra Palace, it's not on the mainline.

I was pretty much saying Greater Anglia should treat services to Bishops Stortford/ Stansted, the same way as it does the others, by running later trains. Although Stansted definitely justifies 24 hour operation. Unsure beyond that.

I would very much like to see Stansted's line expanded eastwards, whether to Braintree or elsewhere.

 

[WTT Gremlin]

You are talking about a different section to me. Cuffley is on the Hertford Loop Line, most services go from Moorgate, but the very early and very late journeys go to/ from King's Cross. After Alexandra Palace, it's not on the mainline.

I was pretty much saying Greater Anglia should treat services to Bishops Stortford/ Stansted, the same way as it does the others, by running later trains. Although Stansted definitely justifies 24 hour operation. Unsure beyond that.

I would very much like to see Stansted's line expanded eastwards, whether to Braintree or elsewhere.

The Hertford Loop functionally (and operationally) is just a set of Slow Lines for the ECML especially considering Digswell-Woolmer Green, in just the same way that between Hanslope Jn and Hillmorton Jn the WCML is still a quad-track formation FL via Weedon SL via Northampton.

Having a quick look for Southend and Stansted at the Section 4 times for the current timetable:

Mid-week
Bishops Stortford (excluded) to Stansted North Jn Down is blocked from 0025 Mon/Tues/Weds night and 0100 Thurs/Fri nights
Hockley and Southend Victoria (London End) Down is blocked from 0200 Mon/Weds/Thurs/Fri Night and 0020 Weds night with SIMBIDS over the Up line until 0200.

So Stansted would require a 1 hour reduction in the possible working time as the time to take/give up the possession would be very similar.

Stansted could have a 'theoretical' 24-hour service if the cyclical patterns meant that a route would always be available, but it would just be Liverpool Street to Stansted with the only intermediate call at Finsbury Park/Seven Sister/Tottenham Hale for Victoria Line interchange when night tube is running. It would be timed per the slowest routing which means when the WAML is open it could be sitting at either Seven Sisters or Tottenham Hale for quite a lot time to account for going via an RM at Shepreth Branch Jn and SL + Hertford Loop.

 

[Magdalia]

The Hertford Loop functionally (and operationally) is just a set of Slow Lines for the ECML especially considering Digswell-Woolmer Green

Late evening GN services are via Hertford North next week. The last train at Welwyn North is the 2306 from Kings Cross.

Kings Cross to Hertford North calling at Cuffley - 1:10am. Used this service a few times, always a good 10 to 15 people get off in Cuffley every time I used it despite it being a village!

The following week the Hertford loop has early close and the last train is the 2245 from Moorgate.

Both the GN and West Anglia have operated this way for at least 20 years. In the days when I was commuting the closures started much earlier and I remember having to remember which weeks had last train to Cambridge at 2115 from Kings Cross.

In the UK we no longer permit SLW whilst engineering work takes place on the adjacent running line. Was something commonplace in my early railway career but certainly not for the last 10-15 years.

A class 755 might be sufficient for a half-hourly service south to London

These early closes are usually on a 6 week cycle and are essential, particularly for adjusting OHL tensions. Single line working would require a safe way of working for that. It is an interesting question on whether an overnight Stansted service could be run safely using single line working and class 755s running on diesel power.

I don't see any prospect of 24 hour running to/from Cambridge until after East West Rail is completed.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't see any prospect of 24 hour running to/from Cambridge until after East West Rail is completed.

Nor after. I'm not sure that Cambridge still supports much in the way of overnight coaches, although there do seem to be some to Luton / Heathrow / Birmingham airports.

 

[Iskra]

Interestingly, GWR are trialling an overnight Reading-Gatwick service.

 

[stadler]

Brighton Main Line on the section South of Three Bridges could definitely justify a 24/7 service. It is a very busy line with people coming back from London and going to and from Gatwick Airport for work or early or late flights. I think an all night London to Brighton and vice versa service would definitely see a lot of use.

It is a shame that it was never four tracked South of Three Bridges as otherwise it would probably have a 24/7 service. The double track line and the need for engineering work is probably one obstacle. The lines between Three Bridges and Gatwick Airport to London and between Bedford to London runs a 24/7 service.

Brighton to Lewes could probably also justify a 24/7 service. It is only Brighton to Moulsecoomb and Falmer that would need a 24/7 service but they would have to continue to Lewes to turn around. This corridor from Brighton to Moulsecoomb and Falmer has one of the most well used and frequent night bus routes in the country running every ten minutes all night. Mousecoomb and Falmer are both next university residences and lots of student housing and the area gets very busy with students even at night. I doubt it will ever happen but i think a 24/7 service would be very well used.