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What routes do you think could benefit from and relatively realistically justify trains running 24 hours per day? I’m not talking about the daytime timetable continuing throughout the night, but just possibly a service in each direction running at least every 2 hours. For this to work you’d probably need at least 2 routes (or 1 route with 4 tracks) between the origin and destination to allow for overnight engineering works, as well as sizeable settlements or airports to be linked to justify traffic.
I’ll start:
Glasgow-Edinburgh
London-Birmingham
London-Manchester (possibly continuing to the airport)
Stansted Airport-London Liverpool Street
What routes do you think could benefit from and relatively realistically justify trains running 24 hours per day? I’m not talking about the daytime timetable continuing throughout the night, but just possibly a service in each direction running at least every 2 hours. For this to work you’d probably need at least 2 routes (or 1 route with 4 tracks) between the origin and destination to allow for overnight engineering works, as well as sizeable settlements or airports to be linked to justify traffic.
I’ll start:
Glasgow-Edinburgh
London-Birmingham
London-Manchester (possibly continuing to the airport)
Stansted Airport-London Liverpool Street
I doubt Birmingham would be doable, unless the intention is Stafford and reverse. You would struggle to have 805s in the right place in the morning. London Liverpool could potentially be done.
I would say that Liverpool-Manchester might have potential. Lots of routing options in the case of engineering work. And most importantly many suburban stations to offer a more attractive stopping service when local public transport from the main stations is not running. But first they should start running services on Sunday mornings.
I would say that Liverpool-Manchester might have potential. Lots of routing options in the case of engineering work. And most importantly many suburban stations to offer a more attractive stopping service when local public transport from the main stations is not running.
Liverpool-Manchester has run 24 hour on and off over the years. At least there has been very late and very early trains.
London-Birmingham-Manchester could work. The challenge is if the WCML has issues through either Coventry or Wolverhampton then the train cannot get to Birmingham New Street on electric. At least London-Manchester can go via Birmingham or Trent Valley.
There is discussion elsewhere lamenting the lack of options from Manchester Airport through the night. Airport - Preston - Blackpool is one which can be routed multiple ways.
That one has gone the other way, hasn't it. There used to be a 03xx service from Liverpool to Manchester Airport, which seems to be no longer. Same with the other early services into Manchester Airport.
As Chris Gibb pointed out with overnight services to Gatwick Airport, it is entirely reasonable to leave overnight travel to coach operators, who can better and more flexibly serve the relevant demand.
It was a bit similar to Euston-MKC with a single diagram doing Manchester-Liverpool about 1am and a return about 3am, if I recall, a bit like Euston-MKC having the 0139 off Euston and the 0315ish back south, the one unit that doesn't "go to bed". Main demand though would probably be Saturday onto Sunday, on which this doesn't run due to the Sunday blockade.
I used it once, a guy was asleep, I told the guard about him and he said he'd just be left to go back and forth until he woke up
I reckon arguably Liverpool to Manchester has more potential than Euston-MKC or Birmingham to be honest, in my experience Liverpool and Manchester are very much 24 hour cities, but the Tube and trains finishing around midnight (OK, we now have the Night Tube, but old habits die hard and it only covers a few lines) mean London very much isn't unless you're going to go to an all night club type venue - most things wind down for the last trains for both customers and staff.
To be honest for Euston to North West I'd just look at later evening services as existed pre COVID - there was a 2300 Manchester which no longer runs (the 2330 Wolves still does and is probably late enough). You could probably do something like a single unit doing Euston-Brum-Manchester-Liverpool at 2300, something like that used to run and I used it once - they put a 47 on the front at Piccadilly P14 and ran non stop via the CLC, but nowadays you'd use Chat Moss for the wires. But the majority of such demand would be on a Saturday which would hit blockades, and would likely be drinkers.
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There is discussion elsewhere lamenting the lack of options from Manchester Airport through the night. Airport - Preston - Blackpool is one which can be routed multiple ways.
There used to be an 01xx and 03xx in both directions on those. They had some slightly odd pick up/set down restrictions which were possibly intended to dissuade drinkers, e.g. Preston was I think pick up only towards Manchester and set down only the other way, thus avoiding the Blackpool drunken trade. They were advertised as "Staff train" when set down only, but clearly were not in fact that.
It was a bit similar to Euston-MKC with a single diagram doing Manchester-Liverpool about 1am and a return about 3am, if I recall, a bit like Euston-MKC having the 0139 off Euston and the 0315ish back south, the one unit that doesn't "go to bed". Main demand though would probably be Saturday onto Sunday, on which this doesn't run due to the Sunday blockade.
I used it once, a guy was asleep, I told the guard about him and he said he'd just be left to go back and forth until he woke up
I reckon arguably Liverpool to Manchester has more potential than Euston-MKC or Birmingham to be honest, in my experience Liverpool and Manchester are very much 24 hour cities, but the Tube and trains finishing around midnight (OK, we now have the Night Tube, but old habits die hard and it only covers a few lines) mean London very much isn't unless you're going to go to an all night club type venue - most things wind down for the last trains for both customers and staff.
To be honest for Euston to North West I'd just look at later evening services as existed pre COVID - there was a 2300 Manchester which no longer runs (the 2330 Wolves still does and is probably late enough). You could probably do something like a single unit doing Euston-Brum-Manchester-Liverpool at 2300, something like that used to run and I used it once - they put a 47 on the front at Piccadilly P14 and ran non stop via the CLC, but nowadays you'd use Chat Moss for the wires. But the majority of such demand would be on a Saturday which would hit blockades, and would likely be drinkers.
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There used to be an 01xx and 03xx in both directions on those. They had some slightly odd pick up/set down restrictions which were possibly intended to dissuade drinkers, e.g. Preston was I think pick up only towards Manchester and set down only the other way, thus avoiding the Blackpool drunken trade. They were advertised as "Staff train" when set down only, but clearly were not in fact that.
Ah I remember it saying "Staff Train" on the boards at Preston when I was waiting for the Manchester direction. I genuinely thought that it was actually about moving staff around.
The main challenge with those late night Manchester Airport trains was remembering to get off at Piccadilly instead of the Airport
A London-Birmingham-Manchester-Liverpool would be interesting. No doubt spark a Liverpool v Manchester debate with that suggestion though.
For this to work you’d probably need at least 2 routes (or 1 route with 4 tracks) between the origin and destination to allow for overnight engineering works
I’d suggest London Waterloo to Basingstoke, with intermediate stops at the SWML stations with four or more platforms (Vauxhall, Clapham Junction, Wimbledon*, Surbiton, Woking).
*would need the gates to the fast line platforms being unlocked.
Scotland to Plymouth via both ECML and WCML via Birmingham.
Offered at a discount it should reduce overcrowding on the XC routes.
I'm sure back in the 70's some such services existed. I've memories of arriving at Temple Meads at 4am or thereabouts
As Chris Gibb pointed out with overnight services to Gatwick Airport, it is entirely reasonable to leave overnight travel to coach operators, who can better and more flexibly serve the relevant demand.
Scotland to Plymouth via both ECML and WCML via Birmingham.
Offered at a discount it should reduce overcrowding on the XC routes.
I'm sure back in the 70's some such services existed. I've memories of arriving at Temple Meads at 4am or thereabouts
Glasgow-Edinburgh would surely have enough demand, there's plenty of 24hr buses serving this route. Maybe running 1ph from Central (to give flexibility to run either via Shotts or Lockerbie) would be the best approach.
As Chris Gibb pointed out with overnight services to Gatwick Airport, it is entirely reasonable to leave overnight travel to coach operators, who can better and more flexibly serve the relevant demand.
I think that massively ignores key potential markets, such as staff commuting which ought to be bread and butter trade for the railway. I'm sure that few people would consider commuting via coach. The existing railway services are already busy to Stansted with staff, so it's not hard to imagine that there could be further untapped demand in the small hours that may be suitable for some airport shift workers. Stansted is also a very different airport to Gatwick.
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Im certain theres a demand for even just a single Glasgow London (one up and down) that stops at more places, 2am to 6am would definitely work, ive always been so disappointed with how hopeless the stops on the sleeper are, Id quite happily get on at Preston and get into London for a nice long day trip
I think that massively ignores key potential markets, such as staff commuting which ought to be bread and butter trade for the railway. I'm sure that few people would consider commuting via coach. The existing railway services are already busy to Stansted with staff, so it's not hard to imagine that there could be further untapped demand in the small hours that may be suitable for some airport shift workers.
The existing Stansted Express service last train arrives the Airport at 0009 and departs at 0030. The first train next morning arrives at 0539 and departs at 0555. Very few workers are starting or finishing shifts between those times. There isn't a massive key potential market between 0030 and 0539 that is being ignored.
Not closing a 2 track railway overnight is more than an inconvenience because there is no other opportunity for essential engineering work, except by closing the railway at other busier times instead.
I think you mean Carstairs rather than Lockerbie, which would be a long way round! Agree however that using Glasgow Central rather than Queen Street offers a larger choice of alternative routes.
The existing Stansted Express service last train arrives the Airport at 0009 and departs at 0030. The first train next morning arrives at 0539 and departs at 0555. Very few workers are starting or finishing shifts between those times. There isn't a massive key potential market between 0030 and 0539 that is being ignored.
Not closing a 2 track railway overnight is more than an inconvenience because there is no other opportunity for essential engineering work, except by closing the railway at other busier times instead.
I don't agree. Stansted has many many flights leaving at 6am. Budget airlines are not especially convenient in that regard. Luton and Gatwick have services too, this makes sense.
I would combine it with a Cambridge service to provide 24h service to a few places on the line, eg..
Liverpool St - Tottenham Hale (24h Vic line Fri/Sat helps this) - Cheshunt - Harlow - BS - Stansted - Cambridge S / C (- Ely)
I don't agree. Stansted has many many flights leaving at 6am. Budget airlines are not especially convenient in that regard. Luton and Gatwick have services too, this makes sense.
I would combine it with a Cambridge service to provide 24h service to a few places on the line, eg..
Liverpool St - Tottenham Hale (24h Vic line Fri/Sat helps this) - Cheshunt - Harlow - BS - Stansted - Cambridge S / C (- Ely)
To me the important thing in terms of service provision to a rail-served airport would be that there is a 24 hour service on which rail tickets are valid. That needn’t always be a train, though - indeed, as long as I’ve got a seat, a longer journey in the small hours may well not be a disadvantage.
Certainly no need for it all through all the night.
However defo see the demand for later last services than right now (as especially on a Saturday the last Cardiff to Bristol being around half 10 is insane and its always busy). Maybe a midnight service?
And could also see the potential for something towards Bristol in time for the early morning flights out of Bristol airport - probably around 2 or 3am.
Given the first morning service is currently 5am (with a change at parkway), if you had midnight, 2.30am and 5am services, is that then a 247 service haha?
Close it for a week or two a year? Close monday/tuesday/wednesday earlier? Bi-di / single line working if services are hourly (+ run via Seven Sisters on the southern bit) - other countries manage it in various ways.
indeed - there needs to be allowances for maintenance but surely as a industry/country we can be a bit more inventive than "close both tracks every night".
Any rail line with links to a major airport should have 24 hour services in my opinion.
Stansted Express with additional overnight stops in Cheshunt and Broxbourne would be incredibly useful (like the 4:40am Liverpool Street to Stansted service) at the hourly frequency offered by Thameslink to all stops between Gatwick and Luton. Would really help alleviate the night bus stopping short at Waltham Cross, while towns like Hertford and Harlow essentially enjoy a 24 hour bus service on routes like 724 and 510. St Albans gets both the train and 724 bus!
With Heathrow, the Elizabeth Line from Paddington (high level) would probably make the most sense. A handful of stopping services operate overnight to/ from Reading, so Heathrow would make sense.
Birmingham to Coventry is probably fine with its overnight bus.
Agree with Liverpool to Manchester but wondering if a service to Leeds would also make sense, especially from Manchester Airport.
Also agree with Edinburgh to Glasgow, but not sure what line would make the most sense to have night journeys. Maybe via Falkirk High?
And given the journey time of many Intercity journeys, I'd say the Cornwall and Highlands sleepers out of London is probably about right, maybe a sleeper to Holyhead to catch the early ferry to Dublin would be useful. Connections between trains and ferries to Ireland really leave a lot to be desired.
The real missed opportunity given the Eurotunnel is the lack of continental sleepers (Nightstar), which are growing in number in mainland Europe every year. Board in London, wake up in the South of France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Austria. Maybe even further afield to Spain, Sweden (via Denmark), Poland or anywhere in Eastern Europe within 1 day? The geography and infrastructure makes this possible, just needs ambition. Done the right way and a ton of shorter flights are no longer necessary. The failure to link HS1 and HS2 is a real missed opportunity too. As such journeys could've been possible from any number of cities on the WCML, ECML and other main lines with such a connection!
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