Trivia: Defunct TOC names still used by passengers / media

[Pigeon]

When some brand consultants decide that XYZ Rail should become XYZ Trains (or the reverse), why should the travelling public take notice or care? They'll just refer to it as XYZ anyway.

I travel on Northern all the time, but I don't know if the official name is Northern Trains, Northern Rail, Northern Railway or just plain Northern.

This, exactly. Who cares? It changes so often anyway and it doesn't make any difference, so the only notice I take of it is to despair at the amount of money wasted fiddling around with such trivial rubbish.

Every now and then I see "Northern Rail" used in the media or by passengers, occasionally I see the #NorthernFail on X (previously Twitter) as well even though the Northern Rail brand hasn't been used for nearly 10 years now.
........
It is Northern however the "Northern Rail" name hasn't been used since the Serco-Abellio franchise expired in 2016 and was replaced by Northern by Arriva which in turn was replaced by the Northern brand we have today.

It's all one to me. It would never occur to me to register "Northern Rail" as in any way "wrong". If anything I'd consider it more correct, since it has "Rail" in it. Just plain "Northern" on its own could be Northern anything, and "Northern by Arriva" is nauseatingly stupid.

Anecdotally speaking, South West Trains is still used by normals to describe the current South Western Railway operations. Better still, the two names are often combined to become "South Western Trains" or "South West Rail".

Yep. All of those are the same thing as far as I'm concerned.

I still sometimes hear the Virgin Trains name used by passengers as well as London Midland, East Coast and for a while Virgin Trains being used to talk about CrossCountry after 2007.

I still call them Virgin because the essential features associated with them being called that in the first place are still the same: Pendolinos, Voyagers, overcrowding and eye-watering fares.

 

[BeijingDave]

When some brand consultants decide that XYZ Rail should become XYZ Trains (or the reverse), why should the travelling public take notice or care? They'll just refer to it as XYZ anyway.

I travel on Northern all the time, but I don't know if the official name is Northern Trains, Northern Rail, Northern Railway or just plain Northern.

Exactly this, and why should the public be expected to keep up with the whims of the corporate world?

Everyone I know is still calling the high street newsagent 'WH Smith' and it took a long time for Snickers to replace Marathon in everyday use

 

[xotGD]

So it turns out that I commute on Northern trains, but not on Northern Trains.

Back in the day, Northern was the bus company in Gateshead.

 

[Belperpete]

I still call them Virgin because the essential features associated with them being called that in the first place are still the same: Pendolinos, Voyagers, overcrowding and eye-watering fares.

And the train numbers displayed on the side of the coaches are still VT.......

 

[yorkie]

Many people seem to get West Midlands Trains "LNR" brand wrong, erroneously referring to it as "LNW" or "LNWR"; it's perhaps best just to refer to the TOC as WMT, to avoid confusion.

Occasionally, some people refer to the defunct TOC "LOROL", which was the operator of London Overground until 2015. But not by the 'general public', because it was not a customer-facing brand name.

 

[nw1]

Many people seem to get West Midlands Trains "LNR" brand wrong, erroneously referring to it as "LNW" or "LNWR"; it's perhaps best just to refer to the TOC as WMT, to avoid confusion.

Occasionally, some people refer to the defunct TOC "LOROL", which was the operator of London Overground until 2015. But not by the 'general public', because it was not a customer-facing brand name.

I'm one of those I have to admit, I think of it as LNWR !

 

[Lemmy282]

Slightly off trains, the bus service between Worksop and Sheffield was a joint undertaking between the rail company and Sheffield transport. My aunts still used to call this service the "LNER bus" even in the early 1970's

 

[43096]

Many people seem to get West Midlands Trains "LNR" brand wrong, erroneously referring to it as "LNW" or "LNWR"; it's perhaps best just to refer to the TOC as WMT, to avoid confusion.

If we're honest, LNR is a pretty dumb way of abbreviating London Northwestern Railway; even more so when the company logo highlights the 'W'. If they really wanted to avoid confusion with the maintenance organisation at Crewe, then choose another name!

 

[Strathclyder]

ScotRail as a brand name is one that's stuck since 1983 when BR introduced it, even with all the changes in TOCs/logos/branding. Out of those induvidual TOCs though, I've very rarely heard 'First ScotRail' since 2015, let alone 'Abellio ScotRail'

I've not heard it myself, but I wonder how many Glaswegians still refer to the Subway as The Underground. SPT only reverted the name back to 'Glasgow Subway' in 2003 so I suspect it may still be somewhat common, especially amongst those of a certain age-group/generation.

 

[Plagiomnium]

I'm one of those I have to admit, I think of it as LNWR !

I do think it's confusing that London Northwestern Railway isn't LNWR when London North Eastern Railway is LNER. They ought to match!

I recently had to correct someone at work who was going to refer to 'second class' rail travel in the guidance section of an expenses claim form. This led to a discussion of how long it's been 'standard class' for...

 

[317 forever]

So it turns out that I commute on Northern trains, but not on Northern Trains.

Back in the day, Northern was the bus company in Gateshead.

In 1999 I remember someone pointing out about the Northern depot there, even though it was Go-Ahead Gateshead by then.

 

[SargeNpton]

I recently had to correct someone at work who was going to refer to 'second class' rail travel in the guidance section of an expenses claim form. This led to a discussion of how long it's been 'standard class' for...

Mid to late 80s I think.

 

[nw1]

Mid to late 80s I think.

Yes, definitely round then sometime. Remember it changed over while I was commuting to school so it would have been that kind of period. Started school as a second-class commuter, finished as a standard-class commuter!

One thing I do remember is how the GBPTT switched over from [2] symbols (second class only) earlier in the 80s to [1] symbols (first class available) by 1987. If I had to guess, I'd say May 1987 as I am fairly sure that was the first timetable with the [1] symbol.

I don't think there was a phase where [ S] was used to indicate standard class only, but may be wrong. I seem to remember [ S] was used to indicate non-compulsory reservations, prior to the diamond symbol.

 

[Watershed]

I seem to remember [ S] was used to indicate non-compulsory reservations, prior to the diamond symbol.

It is still used as the character denoting 'reservations available' in train schedules today.

 

[KevinTurvey]

Regarding the 'S' symbol in the timetables was this not to denote a 'Sprinter' service. I found this note quite handy in helping to avoid them at the time.

Looking through some old tickets I have September 1987 (Aptis style) still being printed with '2nd' later tickets have 'std' - I too thought it was May 1987 that they changed this, but maybe it took a while to reprogram the ticket machines.

 

[nw1]

Regarding the 'S' symbol in the timetables was this not to denote a 'Sprinter' service. I found this note quite handy in helping to avoid them at the time.

I seem to remember the 'Sprinter' symbol was italic [ S] with a white background and black text, while the 'reservations' symbol was a regular [ S] with black background and white text.

 

[185143]

Many people seem to get West Midlands Trains "LNR" brand wrong, erroneously referring to it as "LNW" or "LNWR"; it's perhaps best just to refer to the TOC as WMT, to avoid confusion.

Occasionally, some people refer to the defunct TOC "LOROL", which was the operator of London Overground until 2015. But not by the 'general public', because it was not a customer-facing brand name.

Admittedly I thought it was LNWR too.
But I always call it WMT anyway.

This one is debatable admittedlly as it has never publicly operated under this name. But I absolutely  insist on referring to the TOC that runs purple trains between Reading/Heathrow and Shenfield/Abbey Wood as CrossRail.

 

[xotGD]

How can "N" stand for North West?

Daft.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes, definitely round then sometime. Remember it changed over while I was commuting to school so it would have been that kind of period. Started school as a second-class commuter, finished as a standard-class commuter!

One thing I do remember is how the GBPTT switched over from [2] symbols (second class only) earlier in the 80s to [1] symbols (first class available) by 1987. If I had to guess, I'd say May 1987 as I am fairly sure that was the first timetable with the [1] symbol.

I don't think there was a phase where [ S] was used to indicate standard class only, but may be wrong. I seem to remember [ S] was used to indicate non-compulsory reservations, prior to the diamond symbol.

May 87 indeed seems the on line consensus. Funny as I thought I recalled it a year or two before that.

 

[yorksrob]

Every now and then I see "Northern Rail" used in the media or by passengers, occasionally I see the #NorthernFail on X (previously Twitter) as well even though the Northern Rail brand hasn't been used for nearly 10 years now.

It made me wonder what other defunct railway brands just won't disappear. I suppose the most obvious one is British Rail who haven't operated trains since 1997. I still sometimes hear the Virgin Trains name used by passengers as well as London Midland, East Coast and for a while Virgin Trains being used to talk about CrossCountry after 2007. Strangely I never hear anyone use the name Connex but I think we know why.

It shows how out of touch I am about some other parts of the country... I still think of the local TOC in the north as Northern!

I think it's because the frequency of my visits to Northern England had dropped off significantly in recent years, for various reasons the last time I visited the north was pre-Covid. On the other hand I went up there frequently around 10 years ago.

South West Trains would surely be one, as they operated the railways in this area for many years.

Not a TOC, but Network SouthEast of course.

InterCity in a sense, except that "inter-city" or "IC" can also be used in a generic way.

But Northern is still Northern. I got a shiny new ticket wallet with it on this morning.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2026 ==

Many people seem to get West Midlands Trains "LNR" brand wrong, erroneously referring to it as "LNW" or "LNWR"; it's perhaps best just to refer to the TOC as WMT, to avoid confusion.

I've still not worked out what they'supposed to be called. I just know them as the ones with the reasonably priced walk on fares.

 

[Falcon1200]

Not just in the Railtrack era but Network Rail too, we (Control) occasionally got calls asking 'is that British Rail?', sometimes from the Emergency services!

 

[Taunton]

I've not heard it myself, but I wonder how many Glaswegians still refer to the Subway as The Underground. SPT only reverted the name back to 'Glasgow Subway' in 2003 so I suspect it may still be somewhat common, especially amongst those of a certain age-group/generation.

That name has gone back and forth over time, and there were periods in the past when you could find both in use on official signs, or in the media, simultaneously.

 

[Joshua_Harman]

When announcing ticket acceptance over the IBUS System, TFL Staff often ask us to accept ticket holders from "South West Trains"

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The rail service between Manchester and Liverpool via Warrington Central is still referred to as the Cheshire Lines route, despite the CLC ceasing to exist in 1948.
That's despite being butchered at each end to remove the original CLC termini at Manchester Central and Liverpool Central (high level).

 

[WTT Gremlin]

The rail service between Manchester and Liverpool via Warrington Central is still referred to as the Cheshire Lines route, despite the CLC ceasing to exist in 1948.
That's despite being butchered at each end to remove the original CLC termini at Manchester Central and Liverpool Central (high level).

On the topic of route rather TOC names the list is exceedingly long. Not helped by routes having different 'names' depending on reference/perspective.

In the realm of major railway organisations Network Rail being referred to as National Rail is very common.

This one is debatable admittedlly as it has never publicly operated under this name. But I absolutely  insist on referring to the TOC that runs purple trains between Reading/Heathrow and Shenfield/Abbey Wood as CrossRail.

TfL Rail (sort of) and MTREL have been the TOC names, as far as memory serves, though I do think that like Thameslink the name CrossRail should have been kept due to recognition developed over the development and construction.

 

[Ashley Hill]

When announcing ticket acceptance over the IBUS System, TFL Staff often ask us to accept ticket holders from "South West Trains"

SWT was a very strong brand and will take time to die out. Similarly with Virgin Trains.

 

[185143]

SWT was a very strong brand and will take time to die out. Similarly with Virgin Trains.

I've definitely heard "South West Trains" mentioned in tube station announcements during disruption.

 

[NaZzAtAzEr]

Not seen it mentioned yet but GTR will retain its letters when it comes under public ownership in a few months. It will stand for Greater Thameslink Railway. We were told last Friday in an internal network rail bulletin. Nice to know thameslink will continue going

 

[frankmoh]

Not seen it mentioned yet but GTR will retain its letters when it comes under public ownership in a few months. It will stand for Greater Thameslink Railway. We were told last Friday in an internal network rail bulletin. Nice to know thameslink will continue going

Thameslink itself comes from the 1988 NSE route name. Did people still call it Thameslink during the First Capital Connect days?

 

[Zugaga]

Not seen it mentioned yet but GTR will retain its letters when it comes under public ownership in a few months. It will stand for Greater Thameslink Railway. We were told last Friday in an internal network rail bulletin. Nice to know thameslink will continue going

When the punters find out (or anyway those that notice) I would expect them to say something like "well, it couldn't be much lesser".