Audio/visual "next stop" announcements on buses

[mattb7tl]

Have you looked at the accounts of many bus companies on the Companies House website lately? And then weighed up the profits (where they exist) against capital expenditure?

Yes. My local operations are more than equipped. Firstbus has absolutely no excuse considering they have decimated their own networks so their operations can run at a margin of 10%, completely unrealistic post-COVID. Companies have always played the poverty act even in the times where it was normal for margins as high as 10-20%. Transdev has almost never made much of a profit (Blazefield wide), and yet when they install next stop announcements, they work.

I could say the same for BODS compliance, but everyone is seemingly has been happy for that to be brushed under the carpet and ignored. And that is using data and systems that 90% of operators already have fitted. If operators can't do data entry properly for their own timetables, what hope do you think there is for fitting and fully programming up next stop systems, which rely on the same level of quality (if not more in some cases) of attention?

Completely agree.

 

[py_megapixel]

So what about all the manufacturers who sold buses since then, including dealer stock, where none of the equipment had been supplied aside from the standard destination displays outside?

Some of the blame has to go there as well. Had that been done then the likelihood is some operators would have at least had a better head start on all of this.

Manufacturers build what their customers specify. I would probably expect them to sanity-check the spec but ultimately they have no responsibility for whether the customer specifies correctly. If a customer ordered a bus without seatbelts without considering that their services would soon require them, we wouldn't blame the manufacturer for that!

I do think they should have been including the equipment in their stock spec, which would have allowed independents to be equipped sooner. But that's not relevant to the likes of First Group, Stagecoach etc. who don't order the stock spec anyway

 

[markymark2000]

Manufacturers build what their customers specify. I would probably expect them to sanity-check the spec but ultimately they have no responsibility for whether the customer specifies correctly. If a customer ordered a bus without seatbelts without considering that their services would soon require them, we wouldn't blame the manufacturer for that!

I do think they should have been including the equipment in their stock spec, which would have allowed independents to be equipped sooner. But that's not relevant to the likes of First Group, Stagecoach etc. who don't order the stock spec anyway

Manufacturers built what was specified at the time of order. And in the case of stock buses, some of these will have been built a while ago.

It's worth noting that there does seem to be an increase in the stock buses offering these systems as standard. But as I keep saying, this is only half of the issue. Finding someone with the system, time and patience to programme it all up, is very difficult.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Manufacturers built what was specified at the time of order. And in the case of stock buses, some of these will have been built a while ago.

It's worth noting that there does seem to be an increase in the stock buses offering these systems as standard. But as I keep saying, this is only half of the issue. Finding someone with the system, time and patience to programme it all up, is very difficult.

And of course there are several different systems, with the programming challenges multiplied by the number used. So if a stock vehicle comes with system A, whilst the rest of your fleet is system B, your problems are doubled!

 

[geoffk]

Or "Frenchay campUSS". She drives me mad. "This is the M1 TOO Cribbs Causeway". I mentioned how tiresome I found her Bristolianisms on a Facebook group devoted to local bus issues and practically got death threats.

Does she also say Bartnil, Snans and Annum? (and I've not lived in Bristol since 1973!)

 

[ACBest]

And of course there are several different systems, with the programming challenges multiplied by the number used. So if a stock vehicle comes with system A, whilst the rest of your fleet is system B, your problems are doubled!

A problem I’m now facing, having spent 18 months getting the first system set up, I now have about another 9 months ahead of me getting the second one going!

 

[Cesarcollie]

A problem I’m now facing, having spent 18 months getting the first system set up, I now have about another 9 months ahead of me getting the second one going!

Someone will pop up shortly and say you should have it sorted already, you’ve known since 2017

 

[Deerfold]

I assume you are aware that not so long ago, batch after batch of new London buses were delayed for iBus fittings? It still wouldn't surprise me if electrification delays were assisting with hiding any issues with supplies there as well. Had you also considered that by virtue of being the largest single customer by far with long-term procurement agreements, that TfL may be coming at the top of the tree to the detriment of everyone else?

When were these delays? TfL have had buses with iBus fitted by the manufacturers before delivery since 2009.

TfL account for around 9,000 of the 30,000 local buses in service. Several other operators have had systems in place for years - there's no sudden need for 30,000 new systems.

 

[contrex]

Does she also say Bartnil, Snans and Annum? (and I've not lived in Bristol since 1973!)

I hope I don't sound too snooty when I say I don't often use buses that go to those places. Based on what I have heard, I would say she tends to over-pronounce but rhotically so Barrrrton Hill, Saint ANNES, and 'Hannnum'. She doesn't say 'Kensham', I noticed, as a former colleague from there did. The annoying thing is partly that she doesn't so much say the names conversationally, as call them out. My wife and I still talk about Bald-WIN Street after a previous voicer, a posh bloke.

 

[robertleic]

Centrebus in Leicester have a few busses that are older than 1st October 2014

we will find out in October 2026 if next stop announcements are added

 

[ACBest]

Centrebus in Leicester have a few busses that are older than 1st October 2014

we will find out in October 2026 if next stop announcements are added

You’ll find out before then!

 

[Numpt33]

Most of the equipment is crap to be honest, which is likely why so few buses used it before. Most bus operators dont have the in-house knowledge to fix it themselves, so it needs a technician callout with subsequent charges. those handful of suppliers are raking it in with fitting out 7,000 buses in 2 years (19 buses each day).

The Electro-Magnetic Interference on electric buses is a nightmare to work around as it fries components while in service. It isnt actually possible to see it is working properly during a first use check so naturally they will go out broken.

Absolute nightmare gold-plated pish Regulations! Just another gizmo to break

 

[Bikeman78]

Most of the equipment is crap to be honest, which is likely why so few buses used it before. Most bus operators dont have the in-house knowledge to fix it themselves, so it needs a technician callout with subsequent charges. those handful of suppliers are raking it in with fitting out 7,000 buses in 2 years (19 buses each day).

The Electro-Magnetic Interference on electric buses is a nightmare to work around as it fries components while in service. It isnt actually possible to see it is working properly during a first use check so naturally they will go out broken.

Absolute nightmare gold-plated pish Regulations! Just another gizmo to break

I'd be interested to know how many people use buses since the auto announcers but didn't feel confident to do so before. If I'm going somewhere unfamiliar, I research beforehand and use the map on my phone to work out when I need to get off. I wouldn't trust the auto announcers.

 

[ACBest]

It isnt actually possible to see it is working properly during a first use check so naturally they will go out

Depends which equipment an operator is using - for example, Mobitec ICU602 controllers have test functions and an indicator in the corner to show whether the GPS is working or not.

 

[jon0844]

The point is that, years in, too many operators still treat it as optional until someone forces their hand. If as an extreme example, we had a meaningful financial penalty every time a bus went out with non functional announcements, you would see "procurement complexity" evaporate overnight. The only way to get a private operator to do literally anything beyond bare minimum effort is to light a fire under their backside, and suddenly you will see the "cannot be done" excuses start turning into delivery planning.

Too many companies seem to work like (some) students before an exam. You may know when the exam takes place months or years in advance, but you only start revision the night before.

And then you have people who don't personally, at least not at the time, have a need for something and so think it's fine to not have it. They are happy to ignore the needs of others who do need information to help them get about and live normal lives.

 

[Numpt33]

Too many companies seem to work like (some) students before an exam. You may know when the exam takes place months or years in advance, but you only start revision the night before.

And then you have people who don't personally, at least not at the time, have a need for something and so think it's fine to not have it. They are happy to ignore the needs of others who do need information to help them get about and live normal lives.

When it comes to government Regulations, you have to have certainty on what those Regulations are. Whitehall have been lazy and just copied TfL's ibus standard, which requires every interchange stop to be announced. So when your bus runs parallel with another route for 4 miles, it has to be listed and announced each and every time according to the regulations "because bruv datz ow eet works in London m8". Some city centres might have 40 routes along one street - those all have to be announced?

Buses also have to be fitted with a telecoil loop, which means taking the interior to pieces, often wasting interior panelling. It isn't really feasible to test this without specialist equipment (hearing aids cost £500 a pop, telecoils are an old technology likely to be replaced).

That last one is a massive cause of delay as buses are a volume industry, you have to do the same thing hundreds or thousands of times.

There isn't a list of approved suppliers which means the government hasn't done any work whatsoever to define a standard to help suppliers, or even understand what is and isn't necessary (or possible), or how London's needs are nothing like "the provinces". It has chucked operators into the deep end, added an unreasonable time limit (3 years for 7,000 buses) and has left enough room to change their mind to drive a bus through at a later date because of the vagueness of the rules. Only when the Regulations are on the statute books can any work actually begin as they can't change the wording, but they'll change the context if they can knowing Whitehall.

It brings to mind this scene

 

[markymark2000]

So when your bus runs parallel with another route for 4 miles, it has to be listed and announced each and every time according to the regulations "because it works in London m8".

I hadn't seen that bit in the regulations. Which part is that mentioned?

 

[py_megapixel]

When it comes to government Regulations, you have to have certainty on what those Regulations are. Whitehall have been lazy and just copied TfL's ibus standard, which requires every interchange stop to be announced. So when your bus runs parallel with another route for 4 miles, it has to be listed and announced each and every time according to the regulations "because bruv datz ow eet works in London m8". Some city centres might have 40 routes along one street - those all have to be announced?

Where is that from? TfL buses don't announce interchanges, and the regulations contain no such requirement.

There isn't a list of approved suppliers which means the government hasn't done any work whatsoever to define a standard to help suppliers, or even understand what is and isn't necessary (or possible),

If they had defined a list of approved suppliers there would be people here saying operators were suffering because of the restricted competition. They can't win.

how London's needs are nothing like "the provinces

London's needs are probably different to a little rural minibus but how exactly does a high-frequency local service in, say, Sheffield, need information provision that is "nothing like" a high-frequency local service in, say, Croydon?
Or indeed the tram service along the same road?

 

[BuhSnarf]

I'd be interested to know how many people use buses since the auto announcers but didn't feel confident to do so before. If I'm going somewhere unfamiliar, I research beforehand and use the map on my phone to work out when I need to get off. I wouldn't trust the auto announcers.

I did a video on the mess of Onboard announcements a few months back on my channel and spoke with quite a number of people both in the comments and in subsequent conversations who were partially sighted who are very much in favour of these announcements and gave the following reasons:

1) For some it allows them to no longer have to require a chaperone when travelling, gives them a massive amount of independence.
2) For some they said that when the announcements aren't on a bus what they'd have to do is ask the driver or a fellow passenger if they're going to X stop (because they might get off before then or driver change!) and then rely on them to let them know when it was there stop.

I also spoke with a couple who suffer with autism and social anxiety as well as a personal friend who suffers with autism and they now all feel much more confident using the bus. In fact in the case of one they are now using the bus to get to college every morning whereas previously they were reliant on a family member to drive them there as it is two buses and they were always worried they'd got on the wrong bus.

Of course, this is all anecdotal but certainly from those I spoke to the addition of this makes the journeys much more viable and especially in the case of allowing them independence to catch a bus without a chaperone can be game changing.

 

[robertleic]

this screen looks good, found it on a YouTube video

 

[BuhSnarf]

That's the excel bus from Peterborough to Norwich.

 

[sytransport]

this screen looks good, found it on a YouTube video

Shame it’s not very readable unless you’re sat close…

 

[BuhSnarf]

Shame it’s not very readable unless you’re sat close…

I've found it's not too bad to be honest, but I think it could do with alternating the "map" display of 3/4 next stops with a larger font that shows the destination and next stop. It could alternate between this every x seconds or minutes as there's usually a large gap between most of the key stops.

I will say, though, from an accessibility perspective the excel always has properly working and audible next stop announcements so even if you can't see the screen properly you can definitlely hear where you are.

 

[DanielTheEMid]

I've found it's not too bad to be honest, but I think it could do with alternating the "map" display of 3/4 next stops with a larger font that shows the destination and next stop. It could alternate between this every x seconds or minutes as there's usually a large gap between most of the key stops.

I will say, though, from an accessibility perspective the excel always has properly working and audible next stop announcements so even if you can't see the screen properly you can definitlely hear where you are.

In Lincs we have some grammatical errors, and some stops don’t even match the NAPTAN at all, Caistor according to the bus is “Casitor”

 

[E B]

Nuneaton’s E200s are now being fitted with Next Stop displays, oddly I saw a KX60 plated bus with a screen installed but 62/63/14 plated buses without them. Surely stagecoach would prioritise installing screens in the newer buses which will be affected by the legislation first?

 

[py_megapixel]

Nuneaton’s E200s are now being fitted with Next Stop displays, oddly I saw a KX60 plated bus with a screen installed but 62/63/14 plated buses without them. Surely stagecoach would prioritise installing screens in the newer buses which will be affected by the legislation first?

Doesn't make any difference now as everything built before 2014 will come into scope at the same time.

 

[E B]

Doesn't make any difference now as everything built before 2014 will come into scope at the same time.

Ah, I wasn’t sure of the exact years that are affected when. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[py_megapixel]

Ah, I wasn’t sure of the exact years that are affected when. Thanks for clarifying.

No worries.
If you'd like some more information you can read the government guidance at https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ormation-onboard-local-bus-and-coach-services
(Also contains a link to the full text of the regulations)

 

[DanielTheEMid]

this screen looks good, found it on a YouTube video

Shame Transdev don't make the screens like this anymore. If i was designing them, here is what I would do.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Yes, I believe that Harrogate 36 now uses a similar style to the iBus version 2 in TfLand. Navaho is the company behind them.

I do like your graphics though, they look really good and I think they look much better than the current ones. I put some examples of various screens in a video I did on this subject a few months back (apologies for the self promotion!)

One issue with the screens on the Excel are that for some reason they look to be pointing backwards in the direction of travel which is incredibly odd and once you see it, it's hard not to!