Audio/visual "next stop" announcements on buses

[Russel]

Haven't read all 8 pages, but I've noticed a number of posts excusing the lack of compliance with this law on grounds of supply issues but the reality is, every operator has known about this for a few years now, if they all leave it until the last minute, of course there will be supply issues.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Haven't read all 8 pages, but I've noticed a number of posts excusing the lack of compliance with this law on grounds of supply issues but the reality is, every operator has known about this for a few years now, if they all leave it until the last minute, of course there will be supply issues.

There are supply issues, and even more so, fitting issues and programming issues. None of it is simple! (And I’m sure that 100 computer experts will now pop up and say it’s all dead easy…….)

 

[Russel]

There are supply issues, and even more so, fitting issues and programming issues. None of it is simple! (And I’m sure that 100 computer experts will now pop up and say it’s all dead easy…….)

I'm not saying it's simple, I'm saying that the operators have had years to organize it, the law hasn't appeared over night.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I'm not saying it's simple, I'm saying that the operators have had years to organize it, the law hasn't appeared over night.

2023. I think October but not certain. So not that long……

 

[contrex]

At least you can have Fran say “Next stop, Stoke parrrrk”

Or "Frenchay campUSS". She drives me mad. "This is the M1 TOO Cribbs Causeway". I mentioned how tiresome I found her Bristolianisms on a Facebook group devoted to local bus issues and practically got death threats.

 

[mattb7tl]

2023. I think October but not certain. So not that long……

Markets respond when you have real efforts. If operators had treated this as non negotiable compliance the demand would have been clear years ago and supply chains would have scaled. The on going shortages point to late and current half hearted implementation.

 

[markymark2000]

Haven't read all 8 pages, but I've noticed a number of posts excusing the lack of compliance with this law on grounds of supply issues but the reality is, every operator has known about this for a few years now, if they all leave it until the last minute, of course there will be supply issues.

The rules were announced 3 years ago (March 2023). The law came into force in October 2023, and the first wave of buses (those registered on or after 1st October 2019) due to comply was October 2024. That was a year from the law coming into force, to the first buses needing to comply.

I don't believe there was any prior warning or specific consultation on the legislation either so the industry didn't even get a heads up. It was just overnight, a random day in March 2023, Bam here is a set of rules tens of thousands of buses need this new system fitting and programming within the next 3 years. In that time, there has no only been a lot of places trying to work out what is in/out of scope, but also what it means for them. There's around 30,000 local buses, plus then you have to consider coaches for any in scope schools/colleges as well as all vehicles on rail replacement (because many train operators are misunderstanding the rules surrounding what is in/out of scope). All of which, by the book needed to comply within 3 years of the law being introduced. That's a hell of a workload for ANY industry.

Then you look at the UK supply chain for this sort of thing, and your options are basically 2 suppliers and a few random ones that no one really use. It's a hell of an overnight upscale, with no prior warning. Even if we had all of the parts, there just isn't the staff. And if NSA companies upscale, so must their suppliers. And all of this is for staff who, if they upscaled to the rate needed, would probably not be very good (mass intensive training doesn't tend to produce many high quality staff in any industry) and would be out of a job within a few years and then Hanover and Mobitech would have a lot of redundancies on their hands.

PSVAR there is no excuses, people had 20 years notice for that and still when the deadlines came, everyone acted like it was a surprise to them, especially in the coach sector. Yet far more vehicles need to comply with PSVAIR, and there is a 1-3 year timeframe to comply. With tens of thousands of buses, using only a few suppliers. I think any civil servant and politicians who drafted this legislation had their heads in the clouds in terms of the scope and the deadlines.

programming issues. None of it is simple!

Worth noting the fact that many operators are/were relying on enthusiasts to do their destination blinds for them in the first place. And while this is by no means easy, it's the easy part now compared to the rest of what needs sorting. Every variation of every route, needs it's own destination code, blind, stop list, announcements. All set up to trigger at the right times, with the right pronunciations. It takes absolutely ages to sort.

 

[duncombec]

Haven't read all 8 pages, but I've noticed a number of posts excusing the lack of compliance with this law on grounds of supply issues but the reality is, every operator has known about this for a few years now, if they all leave it until the last minute, of course there will be supply issues.

As an opener, I think that is a sort I once heard described as "lobbing hand grenades and ducking". It would be a bit like me saying "I don't use buses in Lichfield, but I've seen lots of posts about it, and wouldn't it just be easier if..."

I'm not saying it's simple, I'm saying that the operators have had years to organize it, the law hasn't appeared over night.

Markets respond when you have real efforts. If operators had treated this as non negotiable compliance the demand would have been clear years ago and supply chains would have scaled. The on going shortages point to late and current half hearted implementation.

Of course, you both have ample evidence that operators sat on their hands, whistling away and turning down offers that came to their door. It couldn't possibly have been issues with the manufacturers, the manufacturers' suppliers (think small electronics coming on a boat from somewhere that kept factories closed far longer than the rest of the world), finding and training technicians, working out how to install it with umpteen different sorts of vehicle type, ticket machine type, destination blind type, wiring looms... no... none of that could possibly have had any effect, and it was all down to the operators hoping it would go away.

 

[Russel]

2023. I think October but not certain. So not that long……

That's almost 2 and a half years...

As an opener, I think that is a sort I once heard described as "lobbing hand grenades and ducking". It would be a bit like me saying "I don't use buses in Lichfield, but I've seen lots of posts about it, and wouldn't it just be easier if..."



Of course, you both have ample evidence that operators sat on their hands, whistling away and turning down offers that came to their door. It couldn't possibly have been issues with the manufacturers, the manufacturers' suppliers (think small electronics coming on a boat from somewhere that kept factories closed far longer than the rest of the world), finding and training technicians, working out how to install it with umpteen different sorts of vehicle type, ticket machine type, destination blind type, wiring looms... no... none of that could possibly have had any effect, and it was all down to the operators hoping it would go away.

I'm sure there are difficulties, but there are also a lot of excuses here, many operators have had this equipment as standard for a long time, including small independents and every bus in London, it's very telling who has sat on their hands.

 

[mattb7tl]

Of course, you both have ample evidence that operators sat on their hands, whistling away and turning down offers that came to their door. It couldn't possibly have been issues with the manufacturers, the manufacturers' suppliers (think small electronics coming on a boat from somewhere that kept factories closed far longer than the rest of the world), finding and training technicians, working out how to install it with umpteen different sorts of vehicle type, ticket machine type, destination blind type, wiring looms... no... none of that could possibly have had any effect, and it was all down to the operators hoping it would go away.

Yet to see working announcements on my route and these are four year old vehicles the sort that should not be mysteriously difficult to get right. They turned up with screens and the next stop kit fitted, then spent the best part of the first few years greeting everyone with a Windows 7 boot screen instead of, you know, actual announcements. That is not supply chains, that is neglect.

If operators treated this as non negotiable compliance, the demand signal would be real, budgets would be committed, contracts would be placed, and the industry would scale, new entrants would appear and existing suppliers would expand because they have money on the table. This is how markets work when buyers actually buy and hire. The fact it is still patchy or straight up dysfunctional years later says the urgency just is not there for a lot of operators.

Honestly, I could not care the slightest about internal excuses. It is their job to provide basic accessibility information and it has been their job for years. If you tried "it is complicated" as a reason for failing a basic requirement in most other industries you would be shown the door.

 

[Russel]

Yet to see working announcements on my route and these are four year old vehicles the sort that should not be mysteriously difficult to get right. They turned up with screens and the next stop kit fitted, then spent the best part of the first few years greeting everyone with a Windows 7 boot screen instead of, you know, actual announcements. That is not supply chains, that is neglect.

If operators treated this as non negotiable compliance, the demand signal would be real, budgets would be committed, contracts would be placed, and the industry would scale, new entrants would appear and existing suppliers would expand because they have money on the table. This is how markets work when buyers actually buy and hire. The fact it is still patchy or straight up dysfunctional years later says the urgency just is not there for a lot of operators.

Honestly, I could not care the slightest about internal excuses. It is their job to provide basic accessibility information and it has been their job for years. If you tried "it is complicated" as a reason for failing a basic requirement in most other industries you would be shown the door.

Fully agree.

Arriva invested in a fleet of Enviro400s for a route local to me in 2014, they came factory fitted with next stop announcements and screens, they were all switched off after a couple of years and haven't been used since, this is just another example of an operator just not taking this kind of thing seriously.

 

[Simon75]

Fully agree.

Arriva invested in a fleet of Enviro400s for a route local to me in 2014, they came factory fitted with next stop announcements and screens, they were all switched off after a couple of years and haven't been used since, this is just another example of an operator just not taking this kind of thing seriously.

I know Arriva used them on 'Sapphire ' branded buses (not 100% on Max branded), but then as you said after a fews years turned them off, especially when they were debranded.
I guess it was due to cost in running them ?

 

[Cesarcollie]

Markets respond when you have real efforts. If operators had treated this as non negotiable compliance the demand would have been clear years ago and supply chains would have scaled. The on going shortages point to late and current half hearted implementation.

whatever. I’m sure the business you run would have had it all sorted the day the regulations were made.

 

[mattb7tl]

whatever. I’m sure the business you run would have had it all sorted the day the regulations were made.

No. I would have it sorted by the deadline, which is literally the whole point. Not one person is asking for the day the regulations were made

And just to check we are talking human years, right? Because it has been three of them. Not dog years, not goldfish years, human. If basic accessibility info still is not reliably working after that, then yeah, maybe the people in charge of the operators still falling behind should consider a different line of work.

 

[duncombec]

I'm sure there are difficulties, but there are also a lot of excuses here, many operators have had this equipment as standard for a long time, including small independents and every bus in London, it's very telling who has sat on their hands.

I assume you are aware that not so long ago, batch after batch of new London buses were delayed for iBus fittings? It still wouldn't surprise me if electrification delays were assisting with hiding any issues with supplies there as well. Had you also considered that by virtue of being the largest single customer by far with long-term procurement agreements, that TfL may be coming at the top of the tree to the detriment of everyone else?

Yet to see working announcements on my route and these are four year old vehicles the sort that should not be mysteriously difficult to get right. They turned up with screens and the next stop kit fitted, then spent the best part of the first few years greeting everyone with a Windows 7 boot screen instead of, you know, actual announcements. That is not supply chains, that is neglect.

If operators treated this as non negotiable compliance, the demand signal would be real, budgets would be committed, contracts would be placed, and the industry would scale, new entrants would appear and existing suppliers would expand because they have money on the table. This is how markets work when buyers actually buy and hire. The fact it is still patchy or straight up dysfunctional years later says the urgency just is not there for a lot of operators.

Honestly, I could not care the slightest about internal excuses. It is their job to provide basic accessibility information and it has been their job for years. If you tried "it is complicated" as a reason for failing a basic requirement in most other industries you would be shown the door.

No. I would have it sorted by the deadline, which is literally the whole point. Not one person is asking for the day the regulations were made

And just to check we are talking human years, right? Because it has been three of them. Not dog years, not goldfish years, human. If basic accessibility info still is not reliably working after that, then yeah, maybe the people in charge of the operators still falling behind should consider a different line of work.

I think, once you remove the dripping sarcasm, what you're showing here is that you have very little understanding as to how large-scale procurement works. I'm no expert either (there are certainly those here who have more experience than I do), but I do know how long it takes, for example, the landlord of my building to procure and contract services (it's a two-stage process for every contract under Section 20... in theory they have to do that every time a single item comes to more than £250, but largely work on framework contracts in the millions). It can take over a year between first notice and agreement.

As for other industries, may I suggest you look at the energy sector? Or large-scale public works? South-East Water says hello.

This is a deadline that was plucked out of thin air by Whitehall, with little to no idea of what would actually be required to make it happen.

 

[mattb7tl]

I think, once you remove the dripping sarcasm, what you're showing here is that you have very little understanding as to how large-scale procurement works. I'm no expert either (there are certainly those here who have more experience than I do), but I do know how long it takes, for example, the landlord of my building to procure and contract services (it's a two-stage process for every contract under Section 20... in theory they have to do that every time a single item comes to more than £250, but largely work on framework contracts in the millions). It can take over a year between first notice and agreement.

As for other industries, may I suggest you look at the energy sector? Or large-scale public works? South-East Water says hello.

This is a deadline that was plucked out of thin air by Whitehall, with little to no idea of what would actually be required to make it happen.

You do not need to be a procurement officer to criticise a basic failure in accessibility. "It is complicated" does not magically turn into "it is acceptable." This is a customer facing requirement, and we have plenty of real world examples where it is delivered properly, and where faults get fixed in a sensible timeframe. London does it. Transdev does it. Reading does it. Nottingham does it. And the Bee Network is at least moving in the right direction (not perfect, but visibly improving).

The point is that, years in, too many operators still treat it as optional until someone forces their hand. If as an extreme example, we had a meaningful financial penalty every time a bus went out with non functional announcements, you would see "procurement complexity" evaporate overnight. The only way to get a private operator to do literally anything beyond bare minimum effort is to light a fire under their backside, and suddenly you will see the "cannot be done" excuses start turning into delivery planning.

 

[dgl]

Seems the next stop announcements have now been enabled on at least one First Wessex Streetlite, though the screen was saying "Update Successful, After beeps, remove USB stick".
Another Streetlite I have been on recently seemed to have it's dot matrix screen in the middle at the front not in use (but with some dots in the bottom left corner so it must be powered) and an extra one has been installed to the side for some reason.

Also they do remind passengers to stay seated until the bus has come to a complete stop, though it gets played when the doors open, generally when the bus has stopped!

 

[CyrusWuff]

Another Streetlite I have been on recently seemed to have it's dot matrix screen in the middle at the front not in use (but with some dots in the bottom left corner so it must be powered) and an extra one has been installed to the side for some reason.

Could it be an ex-London vehicle that still has the iBus display fitted but has had the controller removed?

 

[py_megapixel]

2023. I think October but not certain. So not that long……

Nope. There was a consultation about it in 2017, and it was in response to the feedback from that consultation that the deadlines were chosen.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/bus-services-act-2017-accessible-information

We will also amend the implementation timescales as follows:

• vehicles first used on or after 1 October 2019 must comply by 1 October 2024
• vehicles first used between 1 October 2014 and 30 September 2019 must comply by 1 October 2025
• vehicles first used between 1 January 1973 and 30 September 2014, must comply by 1 October 2026

So the operators have actually had about 7 years' warning that this was going to happen.

There are enough examples of operators that have it across all their services, that I struggle to have much sympathy for the ones that claim for whatever reason that 7 years wasn't long enough to roll it out!

 

[computerSaysNo]

I'm quite surprised that it doesn't seem to be working on Ember coaches which are almost all brand new and have screens fitted from factory.

 

[I'm here now]

It's now working on GCB services - I was on the 14 the other day. Stark change from the duff screens before!

 

[Bikeman78]

Also they do remind passengers to stay seated until the bus has come to a complete stop, though it gets played when the doors open, generally when the bus has stopped!

If this becomes the norm then my already limited bus use will drop to zero. More pointless noise pollution. And it will increase journey times.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Nope. There was a consultation about it in 2017, and it was in response to the feedback from that consultation that the deadlines were chosen.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/bus-services-act-2017-accessible-information



So the operators have actually had about 7 years' warning that this was going to happen.

There are enough examples of operators that have it across all their services, that I struggle to have much sympathy for the ones that claim for whatever reason that 7 years wasn't long enough to roll it out!

A consultation in 2017 then six years of silence. Who was to know what the outcome of the consultation would prescribe?

 

[43055]

Fully agree.

Arriva invested in a fleet of Enviro400s for a route local to me in 2014, they came factory fitted with next stop announcements and screens, they were all switched off after a couple of years and haven't been used since, this is just another example of an operator just not taking this kind of thing seriously.

Sounds just like Diamond in Burton. Midland Classic installed announcments and screens but since Diamond took over i think they just show the destination like '401 to Uttoxeter' for example and just adverts for tickets etc with no announcments.

 

[RT4038]

You do not need to be a procurement officer to criticise a basic failure in accessibility. "It is complicated" does not magically turn into "it is acceptable." This is a customer facing requirement, and we have plenty of real world examples where it is delivered properly, and where faults get fixed in a sensible timeframe. London does it. Transdev does it. Reading does it. Nottingham does it. And the Bee Network is at least moving in the right direction (not perfect, but visibly improving).

The London operators have had TfL (i.e taxpayers) to pay for it. Reading and Nottingham will have had their municipal shareholders to pay for it in one way or another (i.e. taxpayers). The private bus companies have had to work out how to get the customers to pay (or the Government (i.e. taxpayers) through increased re-imbursements) or Local Authorities (i.e. taxpayers) (through increased contract payments in one way or another). One thing is for sure - the owners of the private companies are not going to pay through reduced profits - after all, accessibility does not measurably increase revenue to bus operators to pay for it.

If Government doesn't have an upfront plan as to how they are going to pay, then you get the sort of implementation (or not) as we have seen.

 

[mattb7tl]

The London operators have had TfL (i.e taxpayers) to pay for it. Reading and Nottingham will have had their municipal shareholders to pay for it in one way or another (i.e. taxpayers). The private bus companies have had to work out how to get the customers to pay (or the Government (i.e. taxpayers) through increased re-imbursements) or Local Authorities (i.e. taxpayers) (through increased contract payments in one way or another). One thing is for sure - the owners of the private companies are not going to pay through reduced profits - after all, accessibility does not measurably increase revenue to bus operators to pay for it.

If Government doesn't have an upfront plan as to how they are going to pay, then you get the sort of implementation (or not) as we have seen.

A majority of networks already have enough public money in the system to introduce announcements. On average half of the revenue private companies make is from the taxpayer but as you say they simply will not accept the reduced profits. This is why the franchising argument is so strong because to meaningfully improve a deregulated bus network the government would have to unnecessarily subsidise features the bus network (via farebox revenue & public funding) can already afford.

 

[markymark2000]

Nope. There was a consultation about it in 2017, and it was in response to the feedback from that consultation that the deadlines were chosen.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/bus-services-act-2017-accessible-information

My apologies.

I echo Cesarcollie's comments though. Many years of silence and going through 3 changes of prime ministers and gone through a global pandemic. Given government policies and the lack of mentioning it between the consultation and the announcement that the policy was to be enacted, operators would understandably have thought that this consultation was leading to nothing.

A majority of networks already have enough public money in the system to introduce announcements. On average half of the revenue private companies make is from the taxpayer but as you say they simply will not accept the reduced profits. This is why the franchising argument is so strong because to meaningfully improve a deregulated bus network the government would have to unnecessarily subsidise features the bus network (via farebox revenue & public funding) can already afford.

I could say the same for BODS compliance, but everyone is seemingly has been happy for that to be brushed under the carpet and ignored. And that is using data and systems that 90% of operators already have fitted. If operators can't do data entry properly for their own timetables, what hope do you think there is for fitting and fully programming up next stop systems, which rely on the same level of quality (if not more in some cases) of attention?

 

[scottishtrains]

I'm quite surprised that it doesn't seem to be working on Ember coaches which are almost all brand new and have screens fitted from factory.

I’ve heard the person who previously coded the announcements on them were awful, and it all had to be rewritten however I have no idea how true this is or isn’t, so take it with a pinch of salt

 

[Cesarcollie]

A majority of networks already have enough public money in the system to introduce announcements. On average half of the revenue private companies make is from the taxpayer but as you say they simply will not accept the reduced profits. This is why the franchising argument is so strong because to meaningfully improve a deregulated bus network the government would have to unnecessarily subsidise features the bus network (via farebox revenue & public funding) can already afford.

Have you looked at the accounts of many bus companies on the Companies House website lately? And then weighed up the profits (where they exist) against capital expenditure?

 

[Observer]

Nope. There was a consultation about it in 2017, and it was in response to the feedback from that consultation that the deadlines were chosen.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/bus-services-act-2017-accessible-information



So the operators have actually had about 7 years' warning that this was going to happen.

There are enough examples of operators that have it across all their services, that I struggle to have much sympathy for the ones that claim for whatever reason that 7 years wasn't long enough to roll it out!

So what about all the manufacturers who sold buses since then, including dealer stock, where none of the equipment had been supplied aside from the standard destination displays outside?

Some of the blame has to go there as well. Had that been done then the likelihood is some operators would have at least had a better head start on all of this.

There probably is a market for new manufacturers to provide these services too if the current ones are struggling to supply those who want to comply.