HS2 Class 895s (Hitachi Alstom High-Speed)

[AM9]

Would the 895s have a HV bus, like the 390s? If so, could the new design allow reconfiguration in the future? Just as some of the 390s were extended from 9 to 11 cars, an ability to do similar might allow creating a balanced fleet of 8, 11/12 and 16 car units from an initial all 11/12 car fleet. After all, many 3rd rail classes have been varied in length during their working life, as have the class 22x DEMUs.

 

[Snow1964]

Would the 895s have a HV bus, like the 390s? If so, could the new design allow reconfiguration in the future? Just as some of the 390s were extended from 9 to 11 cars, an ability to do similar might allow creating a balanced fleet of 8, 11/12 and 16 car units from an initial all 11/12 car fleet. After all, many 3rd rail classes have been varied in length during their working life, as have the class 22x DEMUs.

Not easy to reconfigure if only some vehicles have motors, and the transformer was sized for certain number of motors.

Either end up changing power-weight ratio (and thus acceleration rate), or end up carrying excessive weight around because equipment is upsized for longest configuration even if never used.

The 22x have a motor and power source per vehicle, so same power per vehicle whatever the number of vehicles.

 

[Nottingham59]

Whatever they do, reconfiguring to a different train length will be expensive. From the HS2 Train Technical Specification:

5.2 The nominal length of the Unit shall be 200m. It has been determined that all Units should be the same length, with no requirement for a Unit to be capable of being lengthened or shortened. This supports the overall HS2 business case.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They should have went with New Pendolino or whatever it is called instead of those Azumas IMO!

I don't quite know what Azumas you are referring to, but the HS2 design is based on the Frecciarossa 1000 (originally Bombardier/Ansaldo).
Nothing to do with the Hitachi AT300 design, though doubtless they will have Hitachi electrics and apparently Alstom (ex-Bombardier) bogies.

 

[superkev]

May have missed it but what is the proposed coach length.
Reading various bits in Modern Railways over the years the opinion seems to be that the 26m like the IEP was not a good idea for the uk loading gauge due to ride and tapered ends.
K

 

[Bletchleyite]

May have missed it but what is the proposed coach length.
Reading various bits in Modern Railways over the years the opinion seems to be that the 26m like the IEP was not a good idea due to ride and tapered ends.
K

I believe it's around 25m, so a 200m unit would be 8 car. For comparison, Pendolinos are about 25m end vehicles and 24m intermediates, ish.

 

[Snow1964]

Whatever they do, reconfiguring to a different train length will be expensive. From the HS2 Train Technical Specification:

Yes because HS2 specifically said 200m and no variation of lengths it might be cheaper to buy a new fleet for about third of the order and redeploy the spare trains to other lines.

Yes, they would be excessively fast for something like Paddington-Cardiff, or Birmingham-Glasgow, but the potential cascades (and I won't speculate on fleet cascades in this thread) could be cheaper overall than very expensive variations, especially if there is need for extra trains elsewhere.

In blunt economics if the variation cost is high, then alternative of something like buy new 270m trains, move third of fleet, free up some bi-modes, move the bi-modes to XC etc might be better value overall. But it's a bit of an unknown if HS2, DFT and the fledgling GBR can all work together to minimise overall cost, and optimise fleet nationally.

 

[Nottingham59]

May have missed it but what is the proposed coach length.
Reading various bits in Modern Railways over the years the opinion seems to be that the 26m like the IEP was not a good idea due to ride and tapered ends.
K

HS2 didn't specify a coach length, presumably to allow manufacturers to propose articulated units like the Talgo Avril, and units with Jacobs bogies between cars, like the original Eurostar, which had 18.7m intermediate trailers.

I don't know what Hitachi-Alstom have proposed, but I imagine it will be based on the Zefiro car body lengths of between 24-27m. Wikipedia says the Zefiro 380 has end cars of 26.39m and intermediate cars 24.775m, which makes 201.4m for an 8-car unit.

 

[AM9]

Not easy to reconfigure if only some vehicles have motors, and the transformer was sized for certain number of motors.

Either end up changing power-weight ratio (and thus acceleration rate), or end up carrying excessive weight around because equipment is upsized for longest configuration even if never used.

The 22x have a motor and power source per vehicle, so same power per vehicle whatever the number of vehicles.

I understand that but don't the 801/1 &801/2 units have different numbers of motor cars, with each of them carrying their own transformers connected to the 25kV bus line? That was my line of thought.

 

[Sorcerer]

If the coach lengths are to be the same (roughly 25m) then I expect any design modifications will be the number of coaches and sub-fleets which will be better suited to the scaled back project over a uniform fleet of 200m units with provisions to be coupled up to create 400m long double sets. I expect 250m 10-coach sets and 275m 11-coach sets because of platform limitations while also enabling more seating capacity than existing 265m 11-coach Pendolino sets.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Maybe a silly question, but from a technical perspective is it not relatively easy to add on an extra two coaches to the 200m train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe a silly question, but from a technical perspective is it not relatively easy to add on an extra two coaches to the 200m train?

I'm sure it will be - but contracts are contracts, and it's certain Hitachi/Alstom will try to get their bit!

 

[Peter Sarf]

If the coach lengths are to be the same (roughly 25m) then I expect any design modifications will be the number of coaches and sub-fleets which will be better suited to the scaled back project over a uniform fleet of 200m units with provisions to be coupled up to create 400m long double sets. I expect 250m 10-coach sets and 275m 11-coach sets because of platform limitations while also enabling more seating capacity than existing 265m 11-coach Pendolino sets.

I would assume (hope) that Birmingham services will get 2x 200m units as that route is 100& 400m capable. Manchester will be the difficulty. Other destinatons could be serviced by 2 x 200m trains splitting if Crewe can handle that ?.

Maybe a silly question, but from a technical perspective is it not relatively easy to add on an extra two coaches to the 200m train?

If the two coaches are trailers then that could be reducing the performance, it is adding 25% more weight to an 8car 200m unit (assuming 8 x 25m standard).
Making one of the coaches a power car might not be easy if the equipment needs to be spread over more than 2 cars !.

Then, one hope would be that units could be re-formed at a later date into 200m units by buying the extra vehicles required and using them as more of HS2 gets built.

Reality is the options to do ant re-forms later will be wanted long after the manufacturer has dispensed with the ability to make such coaches. If ever !.

It is another aspect of HS2 where requirement changes will be driving up costs. The rot set in over the developments that led to the government bottling it over phase 2 to Manchester.

 

[Sorcerer]

I would assume (hope) that Birmingham services will get 2x 200m units as that route is 100& 400m capable. Manchester will be the difficulty. Other destinatons could be serviced by 2 x 200m trains splitting if Crewe can handle that ?.

If the route to Crewe is built and the station is remodelled to allow 400m long formations then Liverpool and Lancaster services could very well split there. But if splitting doesn't happen or the route to Crewe isn't built then it gets a fair bit trickier. Presently Liverpool gets 2tph with 182m long 807s and 217/265m long 390s, so I don't know how well 2tph with 200m long sets would manage by comparison. Manchester needs at least 275m at a minimum though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the route to Crewe is built and the station is remodelled to allow 400m long formations then Liverpool and Lancaster services could very well split there. But if splitting doesn't happen or the route to Crewe isn't built then it gets a fair bit trickier. Presently Liverpool gets 2tph with 182m long 807s and 217/265m long 390s, so I don't know how well 2tph with 200m long sets would manage by comparison.

Given that the HS2 units have a more efficient interior layout than Pendolinos then I suspect 2x200 to Liverpool would be fine. I expect what runs now averages out to about that anyway.

For Manchester 3x200 absolutely would not be fine, though I suppose it will be 4 as every HS2 plan I've seen involves keeping 1tph Euston-Manchester on the classic line in addition to 3 HS2 trains. Better to try to get a capacity uplift.

Manchester needs at least 275m at a minimum though.

Agree.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One constraint is of course that DfT awarded the HS2 contract to Hitachi-Alstom JV.
So they can only negotiate modifications to that design.
H-A will already have spent a lot of design and supply chain effort since the contract was awarded, and will want revenue to match their investment.
Like HS2 itself, some of that effort might be thrown away by government decisions.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If the route to Crewe is built and the station is remodelled to allow 400m long formations then Liverpool and Lancaster services could very well split there. But if splitting doesn't happen or the route to Crewe isn't built then it gets a fair bit trickier. Presently Liverpool gets 2tph with 182m long 807s and 217/265m long 390s, so I don't know how well 2tph with 200m long sets would manage by comparison. Manchester needs at least 275m at a minimum though.

Something to be said for just building enough 200m sets for Birmingham and maybe a subset of the services to Liverpool etc. Build more when the 390s are ready to drop or HS2 gets to Manchester.

It all reminds me of the UKs approach to electrification - stop - start( - stop).

 

[Krokodil]

Other destinatons could be serviced by 2 x 200m trains splitting if Crewe can handle that ?

Only one platform at Crewe is currently long enough, which would be too restrictive operationally.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Something to be said for just building enough 200m sets for Birmingham and maybe a subset of the services to Liverpool etc. Build more when the 390s are ready to drop or HS2 gets to Manchester.

There were actually serious suggestions from figures in the industry who knew what they were talking about to use 390s on HS2 for that exact reason, I'll see if I can find the thread on it (as it's probably a better place for some of this discussion anyway), one sec.

It's here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...al-new-new-rolling-stock.288022/#post-7335310 (not open for postings though)

 

[Sorcerer]

For Manchester 3x200 absolutely would not be fine, though I suppose it will be 4 as every HS2 plan I've seen involves keeping 1tph Euston-Manchester on the classic line in addition to 3 HS2 trains. Better to try to get a capacity uplift.

I actually keep forgetting about the classic line service every time the subject comes up and just default to the current 3tph being moved to HS2. Though given the delay to the project will reach beyond the Pendolino's lifespan, I am now lead to wonder which trains will fill the void for a single classic WCML service. Only the four 11-coach units from 2011-2012 will still be within their service life and that's still not enough.

Something to be said for just building enough 200m sets for Birmingham and maybe a subset of the services to Liverpool etc. Build more when the 390s are ready to drop or HS2 gets to Manchester.

I think that the delivery of the 895s and the retirement of the 390s will probably end up overlapping at this rate, so it'll probably just end up being all done at once.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I actually keep forgetting about the classic line service every time the subject comes up and just default to the current 3tph being moved to HS2. Though given the delay to the project will reach beyond the Pendolino's lifespan, I am now lead to wonder which trains will fill the void for a single classic WCML service. Only the four 11-coach units from 2011-2012 will still be within their service life and that's still not enough.

I've thrown in a speculative thread for that: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...or-the-wcml-classic-services-post-hs2.299572/

 

[Peter Sarf]

There were actually serious suggestions from figures in the industry who knew what they were talking about to use 390s on HS2 for that exact reason, I'll see if I can find the thread on it (as it's probably a better place for some of this discussion anyway), one sec.

It's here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...al-new-new-rolling-stock.288022/#post-7335310 (not open for postings though)

Might be worth getting that thread re-opened.

 

[Krokodil]

Something to be said for just building enough 200m sets for Birmingham and maybe a subset of the services to Liverpool etc. Build more when the 390s are ready to drop or HS2 gets to Manchester.

So 200m on London-Birmingham (pairs)/Macclesfield/Liverpool and Birmingham-Manchester/Scotland. 250m(ish) on London-Manchester/Glasgow.

I haven't counted up but I imagine that these two fleets will be fairly equal in size. Then if a future government pulls its fingers out and completes the project, the extra vehicles can be removed from the 250m sets and incorporated into new 200m units built to provide a second unit for use on Manchester/Edinburgh/Lancaster services.

If someone does the maths and finds that there's a surplus then put some units on Manchester-Scotland, where the 397s aren't long enough for the work as it is.

 

[Peter Sarf]

So 200m on London-Birmingham (pairs)/Macclesfield/Liverpool and Birmingham-Manchester/Scotland. 250m(ish) on London-Manchester/Glasgow.

I haven't counted up but I imagine that these two fleets will be fairly equal in size. Then if a future government pulls its fingers out and completes the project, the extra vehicles can be removed from the 250m sets and incorporated into new 200m units built to provide a second unit for use on Manchester/Edinburgh/Lancaster services.

If someone does the maths and finds that there's a surplus then put some units on Manchester-Scotland, where the 397s aren't long enough for the work as it is.

Yep, hopefully all before the ability (jigs) to make the things disappears.

 

[Snow1964]

There were actually serious suggestions from figures in the industry who knew what they were talking about to use 390s on HS2 for that exact reason, I'll see if I can find the thread on it (as it's probably a better place for some of this discussion anyway), one sec.

It's here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...al-new-new-rolling-stock.288022/#post-7335310 (not open for postings though)

And of course, IETs were designed to operate at 140mph, so could operate too. Assuming they are fitted with cab signalling (which is likely to be required on some lines by early 2030s anyway)

 

[Energy]

There were actually serious suggestions from figures in the industry who knew what they were talking about to use 390s on HS2 for that exact reason, I'll see if I can find the thread on it (as it's probably a better place for some of this discussion anyway), one sec.

It's here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...al-new-new-rolling-stock.288022/#post-7335310 (not open for postings though)

Additionally, there was a thread a while ago that proposed fitting 400m platforms into Picadilly. The design below extends platforms 4 & 5 to 400m while only using the space NR currently uses for portakabins and parking.

Description: Lines on OpenRailwayMaps detailing an option for 400m platforms at Picadilly.
Credit: @Nottingham59

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I actually keep forgetting about the classic line service every time the subject comes up and just default to the current 3tph being moved to HS2. Though given the delay to the project will reach beyond the Pendolino's lifespan, I am now lead to wonder which trains will fill the void for a single classic WCML service. Only the four 11-coach units from 2011-2012 will still be within their service life and that's still not enough.

They're incredibly well built and reliable trains, and if things like the HST and IC225 can make it to the age they have done, the 390s can definitely get to 2040 I'm sure.

 

[Elecman]

Additionally, there was a thread a while ago that proposed fitting 400m platforms into Picadilly. The design below extends platforms 4 & 5 to 400m while only using the space NR currently uses for portakabins and parking.

Description: Lines on OpenRailwayMaps detailing an option for 400m platforms at Picadilly.
Credit: @Nottingham59

Bit more than just parking there is operational equipment located there

 

[Cowley]

There’s a new thread regarding possibly using the 390s on HS2 here:

Could the class 390s be used on HS2 at 140mph?

mods note - split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hs2-class-895s-hitachi-alstom-high-speed.290126/ They're incredibly well built and reliable trains, and if things like the HST and IC225 can make it to the age they have done, the 390s can definitely get to 2040 I'm sure. Would be...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Snow1964]

Green Signals has done a video, which includes debate about potentially re-writing / amending the HS2 trains contract

Is the £2bn contract for 54 HS2 trains about to be rewritten?

And is it true that HS2 is going to ‘end in a field’, as was reported last week?

Plus, we preview some very exciting upcoming videos, including an interview with Chair of the Transport Select Committee Ruth Cadbury MP, and a Class 66 cab ride on East West Rail.

**Link to download the TicketyBoo app: https://myticketyboo.com/app_download/
Link to TicketyBoo website: https://myticketyboo.com/
Use code GREENSIGNALS5 at checkout to get £5 off your first booking**

In this episode:

00:00 Intro
00:30 HS2 rolling stock order
26:08 Will HS2 ‘end in a field’?
32:30 Ruth Cadbury MP interview teaser
36:29 Thanks to Supporters
38:06 Railway News Round-up
38:09 Glasgow Central station closed after fire
39:49 Gloucester to Hereford branch line restoration proposal
42:47 Labour MP calls for Robin Hood Line extension
43:55 RMT members vote for strike action on the Tube
46:21 WSMR charter train
48:17 Avanti West Coast to run on Settle-Carlisle Line again
50:03 East West Rail cab ride teaser
52:22 The Quiz
55:48 LNER celebrates International Women’s Day