December 2025 East Coast Timetable

[Bald Rick]

Further, short of adding more time to the northern service and moving it (at most) 2 minutes earlier (if a path out of Leeds is available), how do you propose improving the situation? Its not as though there's buckets of capacity at either end of the route.

To quote the late, great Adrian Shooter “…. have you thought about running it on time?”

 

[D1537]

To quote the late, great Adrian Shooter “…. have you thought about running it on time?”

Not only do the 333s regularly lose time on that route, the other problem is that they only have 10 minutes to turn round at Leeds as well, so any late running coming north gets translated into a late departure south as well.

Even a quick look at RTT shows that the late running xx20 delayed the LNER at least five times yesterday, from 5 to 10 minutes late off Doncaster.

 

[driverd]

To quote the late, great Adrian Shooter “…. have you thought about running it on time?”

Yes, but if the SRTs aren't correct, and there's no flex in the timetable, you won't be able to run it on time...

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, but if the SRTs aren't correct, and there's no flex in the timetable, you won't be able to run it on time...

By chance I happen to have seen a review of the SRTs and dwells on the 2Bxx, and their likelihood of being achieved. It seems that they are achieved by many trains. Which suggests it’s not the SRTs or dwells that are the issue. In other words, it can be done, and is done frequently, but not by every train.

 

[D6130]

By chance I happen to have seen a review of the SRTs and dwells on the 2Bxx, and their likelihood of being achieved. It seems that they are achieved by many trains. Which suggests it’s not the SRTs or dwells that are the issue. In other words, it can be done, and is done frequently, but not by every train.

Are the SRTs for Leeds-Doncaster services still timed for 331s?

 

[Bald Rick]

Are the SRTs for Leeds-Doncaster services still timed for 331s?

That I don’t know.

 

[hexagon789]

Are the SRTs for Leeds-Doncaster services still timed for 331s?

That I don’t know.

Seems to be timed as 333s.

 

[Manutd1999]

By chance I happen to have seen a review of the SRTs and dwells on the 2Bxx, and their likelihood of being achieved. It seems that they are achieved by many trains. Which suggests it’s not the SRTs or dwells that are the issue. In other words, it can be done, and is done frequently, but not by every train.

Do these reviews look at the likelihood of achieving the end-to-end journey time, or just the probability of achieving individual dwells?

I'm not familiar with this service in particular, but it seems that the chance of losing time at any given station along these types of route is essentially random (e.g. due to wheelchairs). To mitigate this, planning could use average (or even optimistic) dwells everywhere, then add ~2 minutes at the last stop before reaching mainlines or major stations (i.e. Bentley or Adwick in this case) to allow for any accumulated delays. This doesn't seem to be how it's done in practice, so it'd be interesting to hear how it's supposed to work.

 

[D1537]

Do these reviews look at the likelihood of achieving the end-to-end journey time, or just the probability of achieving individual dwells?

I'm not familiar with this service in particular, but it seems that the chance of losing time at any given station along these types of route is essentially random (e.g. due to wheelchairs). To mitigate this, planning could use average (or even optimistic) dwells everywhere, then add ~2 minutes at the last stop before reaching mainlines or major stations (i.e. Bentley or Adwick in this case) to allow for any accumulated delays. This doesn't seem to be how it's done in practice, so it'd be interesting to hear how it's supposed to work.

The southbound trains do have 2 minutes allowance after Bentley but that's obviously not a huge amount of use if they're 10 minutes late already.

 

[Bayum]

Even in the evening, services depart at 20:04, 20:30, 20:58, 21:02, 21:58, 21:59, 22:24, 22:41. There's that one awkward gap but nothing runs south at all in it, so its not like Durham is being skipped.

I know this is an old post but I can’t find these trains on RTT?

 

[D1537]

I know this is an old post but I can’t find these trains on RTT?

Those are the southbound departure times from Newcastle, not Durham.

 

[The Planner]

Do these reviews look at the likelihood of achieving the end-to-end journey time, or just the probability of achieving individual dwells?

I'm not familiar with this service in particular, but it seems that the chance of losing time at any given station along these types of route is essentially random (e.g. due to wheelchairs). To mitigate this, planning could use average (or even optimistic) dwells everywhere, then add ~2 minutes at the last stop before reaching mainlines or major stations (i.e. Bentley or Adwick in this case) to allow for any accumulated delays. This doesn't seem to be how it's done in practice, so it'd be interesting to hear how it's supposed to work.

When dwells and SRTs are looked at, you take multiple runs and work out the appropriate value.

 

[driverd]

By chance I happen to have seen a review of the SRTs and dwells on the 2Bxx, and their likelihood of being achieved. It seems that they are achieved by many trains. Which suggests it’s not the SRTs or dwells that are the issue. In other words, it can be done, and is done frequently, but not by every train.

A random dip sample on RTT seems to suggest they're acheived about 50% of the time. I know the 333s are new to the route, so it may well be a driver/guard familiarity thing. It may also be that only when driven "hard" are the timings achievable.

Either way, the overly simplistic solution of "just run them to time", doesn't quite cut the mustard...

 

[Bald Rick]

Do these reviews look at the likelihood of achieving the end-to-end journey time, or just the probability of achieving individual dwells?

Yes!

 

[MboroFC]

Any chance of the IC225s return to Newcastle still which has been floating about for a little while?

 

[D1537]

Any chance of the IC225s return to Newcastle still which has been floating about for a little while?

Planned to start on 30 March.

M-F: 1N09 1433 Kings X-Newcastle, 1Y20 1827 Newcastle-Kings X
Sat/Sun: 1N07 1233 Kings X-Newcastle, 1Y18 1627 Newcastle-Kings X

 

[MboroFC]

When was the last date an Intercity 225 was at Newcastle for passenger service?

 

[D1537]

When was the last date an Intercity 225 was at Newcastle for passenger service?

24 September 2020, according to an answer on another thread.

 

[Manutd1999]

The southbound trains do have 2 minutes allowance after Bentley but that's obviously not a huge amount of use if they're 10 minutes late already.

Timetabling can't be expected to cover for 10 min delays to be fair, there must be something more serious causing that kind of delay rather than just extended dwells

 

[northernchris]

Not only do the 333s regularly lose time on that route, the other problem is that they only have 10 minutes to turn round at Leeds as well, so any late running coming north gets translated into a late departure south as well.

Even a quick look at RTT shows that the late running xx20 delayed the LNER at least five times yesterday, from 5 to 10 minutes late off Doncaster.

I've noticed most of the delays in the Leeds direction are due to a late start off Doncaster due to the LNER running late, but as you mention with a short turnaround at Leeds this is then often transferring the delay on to the southbound journey. The 333s aren't as quick as the 331s either, the dispatch process seems to take longer at each station which can easily add a couple of minutes to the journey.

 

[WTT Gremlin]

To mitigate this, planning could use average (or even optimistic) dwells everywhere, then add ~2 minutes at the last stop before reaching mainlines or major stations (i.e. Bentley or Adwick in this case) to allow for any accumulated delays. This doesn't seem to be how it's done in practice, so it'd be interesting to hear how it's supposed to work.

Whilst that approach may mitigate the problem, it would require a number of very uncomfortable decisions to be made due to the reduction in available capacity, caused (directly or indirectly) by the increased running time.

Those uncomfortable decisions would include some/all of the following:
Do all services have increased overall running time? And if not, which services will/will not be impacted?
Which services could no longer be accommodated in the timetable?
Of the current services which could be only partially accommodated: Which services would have there frequency reduced? and/or; Which services would station calls taken out?
Who would pick up the tab for increased operational costs where turnround times are broken but the capacity exists to maintain current service level?

Not to mention the vast scale of work reviewing and reworking the complete timetable planning rules, the timetable, rolling stock diagrams, & train crew diagrams.

 

[YorksLad12]

I've noticed most of the delays in the Leeds direction are due to a late start off Doncaster due to the LNER running late, but as you mention with a short turnaround at Leeds this is then often transferring the delay on to the southbound journey. The 333s aren't as quick as the 331s either, the dispatch process seems to take longer at each station which can easily add a couple of minutes to the journey.

How busy are the stoppers? Could we reduce the sets back to three carriages, as delivered, to speed up running times? I mean, they did it for the 225s...

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

How busy are the stoppers? Could we reduce the sets back to three carriages, as delivered, to speed up running times? I mean, they did it for the 225s...

Wasn’t the whole point of bringing in the 333’s to better balance capacity though? I’m not disagreeing with your logic, I’m just not sure that would necessarily work in all ways.

 

[xotGD]

How busy are the stoppers? Could we reduce the sets back to three carriages, as delivered, to speed up running times? I mean, they did it for the 225s...

All of them? So capacity on Airedale and Wharfedale services would be cut because of too much faffing about on Doncaster services.

 

[Twingo37175]

Wasn’t the whole point of bringing in the 333’s to better balance capacity though? I’m not disagreeing with your logic, I’m just not sure that would necessarily work in all ways.

Yes - especially services around 8 in a morning and in the afternoon around 5 would be very much full to capacity, on 331's (including standing). At a guess, you go back to 331's, then you would lose the acceleration benefit back to extended dwells at stations.

 

[northernchris]

Perhaps another option would be to not hold the stopper back at Doncaster for as long if the preceding Harrogate/Bradford LNER is late. As has already been mentioned, these have very long layovers unlike the Northern service so adding a few extra minutes delay on to these may reduce the number of late trains overall.

 

[Twingo37175]

Perhaps another option would be to not hold the stopper back at Doncaster for as long if the preceding Harrogate/Bradford LNER is late. As has already been mentioned, these have very long layovers unlike the Northern service so adding a few extra minutes delay on to these may reduce the number of late trains overall.

Plus, I would add similar for the Cross Country at South Kirkby junction. I recognise the regulation to try and ensure any late running Cross Country can claw its slot back at Leeds, but sometimes it feels like the Northern would have been in Leeds before the late Cross Country, again impacting the return journey.

 

[Starmill]

There’s an easy way to avoid that…

"easy"?

Having just travelled, can I just say how excellent it is to have 1930 and 2003 departures from Kings Cross to Edinburgh. Makes all the difference not to have to rush quite so much at the end of a full working day in London.

I always said that a train in this slot would harm demand for the Lowlander sleeper to Edinburgh (certainly it does for me) - will be interested to see if there is any impact.

The 2030 from London has been permanent since May 2022, so I suspect that any impact on the Edinburgh portion of the lowland was felt then, rather than now. Also the 1930 already went to Edinburgh on Fridays, but Wednesday and Thursday nights may well have had an effect as you say.

Extending the 1930 Wednesday and Thursday nights (for simplicity just running it SX as it now does makes the most sense here), and having it skip Peterborough, Newark Northgate and Doncaster, was actually one of the biggest benefits of the new timetable I anticipated.

But that is timetabled. If the xx40 is missing it’s path, then the xx20 stopper must be late. So that needs sorting.

One one similar Northern line I'm familiar with the dwell times are rather sharper on Sundays than they are the rest of the week, despite the trains being busier owing to the very thin Northern services on so many routes on Sundays. Far be it from me to suggest there is a wider pattern, but there is a clear piece of evidence in that one case that it has a lot less to do with how it's planned and a lot more to do with which conductor is pressing the buttons.

 

[Bald Rick]

Far be it from me to suggest there is a wider pattern, but there is a clear piece of evidence in that one case that it has a lot less to do with how it's planned and a lot more to do with which conductor is pressing the buttons.

and which driver is in seat 1A

 

[Starmill]

Do these reviews look at the likelihood of achieving the end-to-end journey time, or just the probability of achieving individual dwells?

I'm not familiar with this service in particular, but it seems that the chance of losing time at any given station along these types of route is essentially random (e.g. due to wheelchairs). To mitigate this, planning could use average (or even optimistic) dwells everywhere, then add ~2 minutes at the last stop before reaching mainlines or major stations (i.e. Bentley or Adwick in this case) to allow for any accumulated delays. This doesn't seem to be how it's done in practice, so it'd be interesting to hear how it's supposed to work.

Worth being aware that most operators are now looking at T-3 punctuality, that is to say at every station, not the traditional PPM measure that was mostly about the arrival times at the ends of the schedule.