Forthcoming changes to National Rail Conditions of Travel

[Bletchleyite]

So the 28 day rule was necessary in a time of paper tickets, and it's OK to make it impractical now to refund paper tickets at short notice because only 20% of passengers use them? (In some cases, of course, not by choice).

It's probably true that it doesn't need to be 28 days on an e-ticket. But there are good reasons to want to at least change the date on it on the day of travel. Far fewer reasons to refund after the day of travel but they exist, e.g. you're hiking in the Highlands without a signal and decide to stay an extra day.

To be honest the main issue is the inability to change the date on the day of travel. I really don't think allowing this as one of the reasons for refund would cause significant fraud, particularly if to get it you weren't able to simply press a button but had to go through customer services. The reason people are doing this is because it's easy to press Refund after you've travelled if you weren't scanned, and it feels like a victimless crime where you're unlikely to be caught unless you do it loads. Such people are unlikely to, by and large, have the time/gall to message Customer Services about it. Even having to rebook and provide the reference of the new date to get the refund would be too much faff for most people if they weren't genuinely rebooking, and it would mean Advances and walk-ups had essentially the same conditions in place then.

That dichotomy is one of the big issues. Now, if you want to buy in advance but think your plans may change on the day so you need to change the day of travel, an Advance is the best ticket to choose!

 

[AdamWW]

To be honest the main issue is the inability to change the date on the day of travel. I really don't think allowing this as one of the reasons for refund would cause significant fraud, particularly if to get it you weren't able to simply press a button but had to go through customer services. The reason people are doing this is because it's easy to press Refund after you've travelled if you weren't scanned. Such people are unlikely to, by and large, have the time/gall to message Customer Services about it.

I still think (and of course could be completely wrong as I speak from near total ignorance) that a fair proportion of invalid refunds could be avoided by keeping the current rules but adding friction to the process.

No automatic refunds, no just clicking on a button.

If you had to fill in a form and provide a reason for not travelling, even if nobody (not even a computer) actually read it, I suspect that would put a lot of people off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still think (and of course could be completely wrong as I speak from near total ignorance) that a fair proportion of invalid refunds could be avoided by keeping the current rules but adding friction to the process.

No automatic refunds, no just clicking on a button.

If you had to fill in a form and provide a reason for not travelling, even if nobody (not even a computer) actually read it, I suspect that would put a lot of people off.

Totally agree. I think they should have tried that first. The other one I think they chould have done was mandated all retailers to apply the same admin fee (per booking, ideally, not per ticket) - Trainline always giving you something back due to their percentage based admin fee capped at the £5 encouraged people to press the button.

Also I think a fair few will be pressing "refund" but meaning to claim Delay Repay. The stats for that would be interesting.

For what it's worth LNER's reservation tool is an example of this friction. You have to enter a ticket number or booking reference but they have no means of validating it so you can enter anything provided it's in the correct format. For added friction, 00000 doesn't work. But I expect that means most people don't think you can use the tool to block the seat next to you* (where you booked on another site) even though in practice there's very little to prevent that if you're willing to tell a computer a little white lie.

* Obviously someone can just sit there, but you'd be preventing someone reserving it.

 

[AdamWW]

Totally agree. I think they should have tried that first. The other one I think they chould have done was mandated all retailers to apply the same admin fee (per booking, ideally, not per ticket) - Trainline always giving you something back due to their percentage based admin fee capped at the £5 encouraged people to press the button.

It does seem that there was no interest in considering anything more customer friendly and that there doesn't seem to be an effective mechanism for even people in the industry to influence changes.

What does worry me is what might come next, especially given the apparent view that it's fine to make passengers' lives harder so long as it doesn't impact 80% of journeys.

I can think of quite a few changes that could be made in the railway's favour based on that principle, and that could also be justified on the grounds that other countries do it.

I was wondering if this affects the Night Riviera. I think that now requires a walk-up ticket plus supplement. Will GWR sell you the supplement on its own so you can defer buying the ticket itself until just before travel? This will have one the longest periods between the refund window closing and the actual time of travel...

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does seem that there was no interest in considering anything more customer friendly and that there doesn't seem to be an effective mechanism for even people in the industry to influence changes.

It's a very clear "something must be done, this is something, therefore we must do this", with evidence sought solely to back up their position.

What does worry me is what might come next, especially given the apparent view that it's fine to make passengers' lives harder so long as it doesn't impact 80% of journeys.

I can think of quite a few changes that could be made in the railway's favour based on that principle, and that could also be justified on the grounds that other countries do it

<cough> LNER trial </cough>

I agree, there are loads I can think of too, though perhaps we should refrain from having a thread giving them more ideas than they have themselves

 

[mmh]

Heretical solution: on the day refunds given at ticket offices. Easy verification that a ticket wasn't used - you're at the origin not the destination. Involves humans though, so would never be considered.

 

[MrJeeves]

Easy verification that a ticket wasn't used - you're at the origin not the destination.

For all anyone knows, the gates were open and you are refunding your return ticket the day after you get home.

 

[AdamWW]

Heretical solution: on the day refunds given at ticket offices. Easy verification that a ticket wasn't used - you're at the origin not the destination. Involves humans though, so would never be considered.

Or you're back from what has now become a nice cheap day out?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Heretical solution: on the day refunds given at ticket offices. Easy verification that a ticket wasn't used - you're at the origin not the destination. Involves humans though, so would never be considered.

For all anyone knows, the gates were open and you are refunding your return ticket the day after you get home.

Or you're back from what has now become a nice cheap day out?

This would provide some of the friction noted - even fewer people will directly lie to a human than will lie to a computer. That's probably why it wasn't a massive problem in paper ticket days. Coupled with the fact a lot of people didn't know tickets were refundable back then as it wasn't printed on them.

 

[Haywain]

Or you're back from what has now become a nice cheap day out?

Or it's just 15 minutes after the departure of the first train your ticket was valid for. And still you're treated as someone trying to commit fraud.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2026 ==

That's probably why it wasn't a massive problem in paper ticket days.

It was certainly a problem in paper ticket days. I used to authorise the refunds at a major London terminal, and after a short time was able to recognise the names of repeat offenders and to identify a lot of dodgy claims. They would generally get a letter asking for more information and, strangely, most wouldn't reply. I know a couple of those repeat claimants got visits from our fraud team before they stopped.

 

[AdamWW]

Or it's just 15 minutes after the departure of the first train your ticket was valid for. And still you're treated as someone trying to commit fraud.

For the record, I am not in favour of these changes.

But that's an interesting point.

Would it do harm if retailers were permitted (but not required) to implement logic that allowed a ticket to be refunded at any point before it could legitimately used, rather than a blanket 23:59 the night before?

Maybe the argument is that since the railway can't be relied upon to check tickets someone could get away with using a ticket before it's even valid and then refunding it.

 

[mmh]

Maybe the argument is that since the railway can't be relied upon to check tickets someone could get away with using a ticket before it's even valid and then refunding it.

Why would someone bother buying a ticket that wasn't valid, at least deliberately? Accidentally, sure - the ticketing system almost seems designed to encourage that!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe the argument is that since the railway can't be relied upon to check tickets someone could get away with using a ticket before it's even valid and then refunding it.

Or just not bothering with a ticket at all...I suppose though that that means a hefty punishment if actually caught.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why would someone bother buying a ticket that wasn't valid, at least deliberately? Accidentally, sure - the ticketing system almost seems designed to encourage that!

He means before it becomes valid, like buying a ticket for tomorrow today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

He means before it becomes valid, like buying a ticket for tomorrow today.

Though if you're going to do that you might as well just not buy one at all, because the effect is the same.

The advantage (!) of the refund scam was similar to the old Merseytravel Saveaway scam - if you get caught you just lose what you should have paid to start with.

 

[Sonic1234]

What does worry me is what might come next, especially given the apparent view that it's fine to make passengers' lives harder so long as it doesn't impact 80% of journeys.

Customer service standards are low on the railway and getting worse. Tried making a complaint to a TOC recently? You get a response like "sorry to hear that, but that's the way it is". Cost cutting and an attitude of you're only on the train because the other options are even worse has permeated throughout the industry. And with capacity limited and population growing, they're not worried if you don't ever use the train again because someone else will take your seat.

 

[AdamWW]

He means before it becomes valid, like buying a ticket for tomorrow today.

Well I was wondering why the new rules couldn't permit a ticket to be refunded before it could be legitimately used (e.g. an off peak ticket which isn't valid until 9:30), rather than the previous midnight.

The only argument I can think of is that someone could try to use it before it was valid and then refund if not scanned, since the worst that should happen if caught with the invalid ticket is paying the difference to a peak fare.

This doesn't seem a very strong argument to me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2026 ==

And with capacity limited and population growing, they're not worried if you don't ever use the train again because someone else will take your seat.

I presume that LNER and GWR don't take that approach, given the amount of advertising I'm subjected to for both of them.

 

[Starmill]

Well I was wondering why the new rules couldn't permit a ticket to be refunded before it could be legitimately used (e.g. an off peak ticket which isn't valid until 9:30), rather than the previous midnight.

The only argument I can think of is that someone could try to use it before it was valid and then refund if not scanned, since the worst that should happen if caught with the invalid ticket is paying the difference to a peak fare.

This doesn't seem a very strong argument to me.

I think you're overthinking it. I think it's because they couldn't be bothered to attempt to write that down. No doubt they would make a hash of it like they have with essentially every section of the NRCoT...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2026 ==

Customer service standards are low on the railway and getting worse. Tried making a complaint to a TOC recently? You get a response like "sorry to hear that, but that's the way it is". Cost cutting and an attitude of you're only on the train because the other options are even worse has permeated throughout the industry. And with capacity limited and population growing, they're not worried if you don't ever use the train again because someone else will take your seat.

It's great business. Charge someone for an Anytime ticket, and then when they can't travel and need to amend the date they get to keep all of the money and not have to actually do anything in return...

 

[sheff1]

Also I think a fair few will be pressing "refund" but meaning to claim Delay Repay.

Especially as some on train staff announce something along the lines of "because of the delay you can claim a refund on your ticket"

For all anyone knows, the gates were open and you are refunding your return ticket the day after you get home.

The suggestion was "on the day" refunds.

 

[MrJeeves]

The suggestion was "on the day" refunds.

For all anyone knows, the gates were open and you are refunding your return ticket later in the day after you get home.

 

[Adam Williams]

Would it do harm if retailers were permitted (but not required) to implement logic that allowed a ticket to be refunded at any point before it could legitimately used, rather than a blanket 23:59 the night before?

This was indeed something that was suggested.

Particularly because the NRCoT wording I've seen I think used the phrase "becomes first valid for use" or similar (which of course for an super off-peak ticket the first train might be quite late in the day).

Clearly, it would've been more passenger friendly and it's difficult to see the downsides from a revenue protection perspective.

Edit: @Watershed has covered this far better than I could have. I found the whole process rather frustrating and fairly disheartening, to be honest. Very little appreciation for the paying customer; very little appreciation/understanding of technology or online retail from some of those involved as well.

 

[NARobertson]

Apparently, according to the Cross-Country website, a refund will be considered on the day in exceptional circumstances of which only one example is given, that of a medical emergency. But even in such a case the customer is in the position of a supplicant. This situation basically arises because the railways have a monopoly and it would be interesting to know if any other countries that have this policy are also nationalised systems and therefore monopolies. An alternative solution is travel insurance but here too you might pay a premium but have a claim rejected.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

A bit of disingenuous messaging from Chiltern here:

Refund information | Chiltern Railways

Season ticket refundTo qualify for a refund, Season Tickets valid for one month or more must have at least seven days’ remaining validity. Please note that Annual season tickets generally have no refund value if there is less than seven weeks of validity remaining. Any refund to which you are...

www.chilternrailways.co.uk

However, if you choose not to travel as a result of disruption caused by the rail industry, we will be able to apply for your refund up until 28 days after the tickets expiry date

(My emphasis).

This doesn't accurately reflect the NRCoT, which allows a refund due to any kind of disruption, regardless of the cause!

 

[OscarH]

Very little appreciation for the paying customer; very little appreciation/understanding of technology or online retail from some of those involved as well.

Understatements of the century to describe some of those involved, it really was an experience

 

[yorksrob]

Can we look forwards to them looking at areas were Britain's rules are harsher than most other countries so that they can be relaxed to bring us into line? Or does it not work like that?

Of course not. In this country we only copy ideas that make things worse/more expensive for passengers.

Don't expect a bahn card or some such to be introduced any time soon.

 

[AdamWW]

A bit of disingenuous messaging from Chiltern here:

However, if you choose not to travel as a result of disruption caused by the rail industry, we will be able to apply for your refund up until 28 days after the tickets expiry date

(My emphasis).

This doesn't accurately reflect the NRCoT, which allows a refund due to any kind of disruption, regardless of the cause!

I suspect that this is badly written, and what they mean is that for example you can get a refund if you turn up to the station and the train you wanted to catch is late, but not if you miss the train because the bus to the station was late.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect that this is badly written, and what they mean is that for example you can get a refund if you turn up to the station and the train you wanted to catch is late, but not if you miss the train because the bus to the station was late.

"As a result of your train service being disrupted and you choosing not to travel or returning to your origin without reaching your destination as a consequence of this" would probably be the correct way of putting it, but the industry does seem to be incapable of writing simple English at times.

This element of it isn't complex (much as I don't support it), it just brings walk-ups into line with Advances in this regard.

 

[hawk1911]

OK, I am interested in views on my particular circumstances.

I have a health condition (that is covered by the Disability Discrimination Act) that means I don't know if I'll be fit enough to travel until the day of travel itself. On the Saturday just gone I had to abandon my travel plans, for this very reason, and put in for a refund via the Forum's ticketing site.

I tend to purchase my tickets a day or two in advance, so that I can secure a reserved seat, and it seems that, under the new rules on refunds, I am going to be penalised for my disability.

I have now submitted a formal complaint to National Rail on the basis that the forthcoming changes to refunds discriminate against disabled people, by putting them at a substantial disadvantage in comparison with persons who are not disabled, and are, therefore, in breach of the Equalities Act 2010 and, in particular, Section 19 of the Act.

A copy of my complaint has also gone to my MP, with a request that it is raised with the relevant Minister.

 

[redreni]

I have now submitted a formal complaint to National Rail on the basis that the forthcoming changes to refunds discriminate against disabled people, by putting them at a substantial disadvantage in comparison with persons who are not disabled, and are, therefore, in breach of the Equalities Act 2010 and, in particular, Section 19 of the Act.

A copy of my complaint has also gone to my MP, with a request that it is raised with the relevant Minister.

I'm sure they'll have done a thorough Equality Impact Assessment that gives really sound reasons for not adopting any of the many mitigations that were put forward by people inside and inside the rail industry, all of which they'll have taken seriously and given anxious scrutiny.

It'll might be worth asking to see it, though, just to make sure it's as robust as you'd expect it to be...

 

[AlterEgo]

I have now submitted a formal complaint to National Rail on the basis that the forthcoming changes to refunds discriminate against disabled people, by putting them at a substantial disadvantage in comparison with persons who are not disabled, and are, therefore, in breach of the Equalities Act 2010 and, in particular, Section 19 of the Act.

A copy of my complaint has also gone to my MP, with a request that it is raised with the relevant Minister.

On what grounds is this discrimination, when compared to, say any other service which is refundable up to a point?