This particular part of the discussion was about the suggestion, related to the change in refund rights. that there would be little impact if someone purchasing a ticket to travel in 30 minutes time was prevented from downloading their ticket immediately on purchase.
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Forthcoming changes to National Rail Conditions of Travel
- Thread starter redreni
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Apologies I did mean my comments on the delivery being queued until after the undo timeout to relate to tickets fulfilled by eTicket.
With regards starting short, they would like to stop this eventually since they would rather you spend more on the way back to go an extra distance or if the short starts saved money, they would rather have a larger fare.
With regards starting short, they would like to stop this eventually since they would rather you spend more on the way back to go an extra distance or if the short starts saved money, they would rather have a larger fare.
I like to think there are some ideas that even the DfT wouldn't dare to try. I hope killing break of journey is one of those.
That would give going by car a massive advantage. On the train you're trapped, in the car you're not.
As the NR website states the object is to reduce fraud, which I fully get with e-tickets where a ticket is used, not scanned and a refund is requested, but what if the ticket is booked to be collected at the station, if the ticket is not collected then it can’t possibly be used so why should a refund not be allowed on those tickets. If I buy goods on a website to be collected at a retailer, rather than delivered, and I then don’t go and collect them the retailer would give me my money back.
i imagine that RDG do not want different rules depending on how the tickets are delivered as that would then drive everyone back to booking refundable tickets to be collected at the station in case they want to cancel the trip, especially for business travel where meetings can change at the last minute.
i imagine that RDG do not want different rules depending on how the tickets are delivered as that would then drive everyone back to booking refundable tickets to be collected at the station in case they want to cancel the trip, especially for business travel where meetings can change at the last minute.
Adam Williams
Established Member
Yes, quite.
But apparently they don't want to skew the fulfilment method stats and cause everyone and their dog to fulfil to ToD.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There are options, e.g optionally allowing delayed download of etickets and allowing date changes (which is no more susceptible to fraud than a period return, indeed less so because you could allow only one change and block refunds entirely once changed).
But as ever the railway prefers to stuff passengers and keep the whole of an extraordinarily expensive ticket. Worse than Ryanair in a way.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
What will the B2B (business to business) rules be?
It isn't of course unusual to offer more flexible terms for businesses - Premier Inn for instance offers the nonrefundable price on a refundable basis for businesses if I remember rightly.
It isn't of course unusual to offer more flexible terms for businesses - Premier Inn for instance offers the nonrefundable price on a refundable basis for businesses if I remember rightly.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Cue an uptake in those passengers who will select TOD and 'accidently' forget to collect it in the hope of not running into a guard who has the ability/willingness to print the ticket off. Especially if the journey is between two unbarriered stations.
And after the journey that passenger claims they didn't travel and can they get the money back, although that already happens.
Exactly this. Particularly given at least one retailer currently automatically refunds uncollected TODs.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
"The Man in Seat 61" is now on it - hopefully he can kick up some decent bad publicity.
(from Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/seatsixtyone)
Unsurprisingly, IanVisits (who is in my experience always anti-customer and pro-establishment, I guess because it eases getting access to stuff for his London tours business) is touting the party line.
(from Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/seatsixtyone)
Unsurprisingly, IanVisits (who is in my experience always anti-customer and pro-establishment, I guess because it eases getting access to stuff for his London tours business) is touting the party line.
Fare dodgers targeted as train ticket refund rules are tightened
In a bid to clamp down on ticket fraud that costs the railways millions each year, the government has quietly changed the rules on claiming refunds for unused train tickets.
www.ianvisits.co.uk
In a bid to clamp down on ticket fraud that costs the railways millions each year, the government has quietly changed the rules on claiming refunds for unused train tickets.
Currently, depending on the type of ticket purchased, refunds are allowed for up to 28 days after the date of travel if the ticket remains unused.
However, this window has been open to abuse.
If a ticket is never inspected during a journey, it is possible to travel using it and then submit a refund claim afterwards, falsely stating that the ticket was never used. Once a ticket is scanned at any point on the journey, this loophole closes.
The rail industry has estimated that this type of fraud costs around £40 million a year.
To tackle the problem, the refund rules are being tightened. From 1st April 2026, passengers will only be able to claim a refund up to 23:59 on the day before the ticket becomes valid.
Rail Minister, Lord Peter Hendy, said: “Deliberate fare dodging has no place on our railways. It drains much needed revenue and undercuts the trust of passengers who play by the rules.
Changing refund rules will help stamp out fraud, keeping money in the railway – which will ensure we can deliver an improved railway with passengers at its heart.”
The changes don’t apply to Advance or Season tickets, which already have different refund rules, and some niche tickets might have their own rules as well.
It also won’t affect refunds for delays and cancellations caused by the railway, only if the passenger decides not to travel.
The change will also only apply to tickets bought after 1st April, so if you suspect you might need to cancel a trip in the future, it might make sense to buy a ticket now, as you would still be able to claim a refund if the ticket permits refunds.
Full details of the new refund rule will be in the new National Rail Conditions of Travel, which come into effect in April 2026.
BRX
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His advice is going to catch a lot of people out isn't it? Because the TOCs now do the thing of pretending a train is "sold out" for walk-up fares, people may see that a walk-up fare is available for their journey when they look a couple of weeks in advance, then find they can't buy it online on the day.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's very rare (certainly I've never seen it) for every train that day to be "sold out" - you just pick a different one and use it on the train of your choice. And LNER specifically say (when you tap on a sold out train on their app) that booking offices will still sell a walk-up fare in those circumstances.
BRX
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Most people won't know this.
That's no use if you are planning to buy online, which is how most people buy these days.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It is, it's a fallback for the incredibly unlikely event of there being no more valid trains that day.
Can any of our resident LNER people confirm if LNER's ticket machines override "sold out" as well as booking offices? I half recall they do but I'm not sure.
Plus it's only Avanti/TPE WCML, LNER, Lumo, Hull and Grand Central (and occasionally EMR in ECML closures) that do this nonsense. Plenty of people will only ever travel with TOCs that don't do it. It's basically just ECML and WCML. GWR don't for instance.
Mainline421
Member
I don't see the logic there, you will have to be present at the station in order to board the train, you don't have to buy online.
I very strongly disagree with fake "sold out" existing as a concept but that doesn't make even worse than it already is, if they replaced it with a clearer "No online tickets, pay at station but you may need to stand for part or all of the journey" that would fix many problems
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That's pretty much exactly what the LNER app says if you try to tap on a "sold out" journey.
OK, I am interested in views on my particular circumstances.Refund changes have been announced on NRE this morning.
Refunds Change | National Rail
From 1 April 2026 the refund conditions for some National Rail train tickets including Anytime tickets, Off-Peak tickets and Day Travelcards are changing.www.nationalrail.co.uk
I have a health condition (that is covered by the Disability Discrimination Act) that means I don't know if I'll be fit enough to travel until the day of travel itself. On the Saturday just gone I had to abandon my travel plans, for this very reason, and put in for a refund via the Forum's ticketing site.
I tend to purchase my tickets a day or two in advance, so that I can secure a reserved seat, and it seems that, under the new rules on refunds, I am going to be penalised for my disability.
Indeed so. For what it's worth, in this instance a 'please reserve me seats on x train, I plan on getting this ticket but can't until the day due to my disability' to the TrainSplit support team from next month would be entirely understandable (and I'm sure they'd have no issue reserving you seats)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Or, if seat selection isn't important, they can still be done on the GWR site (web only) under the Account section. I thought they had removed it as part of the move to SilverRail but it's still there.
If travelling with LNER you can also do it on their site/app with seat selection, just enter a random 5 digit number for the ticket number (though 00000 no longer works).
Wallsendmag
Established Member
They can't overrride but there is a way round the reservation
BRX
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You'll have to be at the station earlier than you usually would, in case there's a queue at the booking office or ticket machine.
If your station has no booking office then you'll have to rely on a ticket machine. If you are used to buying online, the process is going to be different from what you're familiar with, because ticket machined aren't generally itinerary based so you're going to have to understand what fare options are valid for your journey.
And you may only find out you're going to have to do all this 15 minutes beforehand, when you look on your normal ticket buying app whilst on the way to yhe ststion. Normally you'd have bought your ticket a couple of days prior but you've been advised not to do that and buy at the last minute instead.
Mainline421
Member
All of those are invented problems. I've never in my life factored in extra time to purchase an ordinary single or return in the UK, and I very often arrive at the station <5 minutes before departure without feeling rushed.
Buying tickets at the time of travel has always been best practice (and what I always do), even now refunds still incur a fee.
BRX
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As long as you, your preferences, your familiarity with ticketing rules, your travel habits, and your local station's facilities and level of usage are typical of all UK rail passengers it'll all be fine then.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Then you've been very lucky. My experiences at Newcastle and at Manchester Airport are very different. I know what I'm doing but I still have to wait behind all the people who don't.
WelshBluebird
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It very much is not an invented problem. Try doing that at a busy station at 8am and see how long it takes you.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Most people going to stations at 7-8am (commuters, largely) aren't buying tickets to travel on trains with fake compulsory reservations, which are the only ones where you may need to do that. Even fewer are now since LNER packed in carrying commuters at the south end.
Mainline421
Member
No, very much not the case (and for the avoidance of doubt your sarcasm is noted).
Indeed, the only times I've queued for TVMs in recent years is at smaller stations, there's usually at least one free at major stations
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Very London centric, but one thing I noticed yesterday, walking from St Pancras down to the Tube, was that I walked the ticket machine side of the barrier after I'd gone down the stairs because the corridor side was heaving and literally *nobody* was using the long bank of Tube ticket machines. Not one person.
Sure, the Tube isn't the mainline, but it highlights how people mostly just aren't buying tickets at stations any more where they can avoid it, so doing so if you do need to is not much of a barrier.
I would argue there is little equivalence here. Buying from a TVM on National Rail will offer the same price as an app (setting aside splits), and the apps are comparatively difficult to use for some people.
On the Tube buying a paper ticket is far more expensive in most cases. Whereas using contactless or Oyster is far easier than using a TVM, obviously just needing to tap. There are plenty who still use the TVMs, be it tourists buying tickets or people topping up Oyster, but the it just isn’t every journey.