Forthcoming changes to National Rail Conditions of Travel

[redreni]

Wasn't the old reading elsewhere tantamount to you can get out but you can't come back in?

As I know too well with your constant drive to get TfL to sort themselves out, not what was going on the ground with the crossrail.

That being said I can't see them moaning about the 'terminii' of the crossrail core. It is one of those things where no answer will be definitive. I mean that in the sense you or someone makes the claim and they pay out is no 100% confirmation of the clause or validty, gate staff will make their mind up on the prevailing wind and anyone in an office will bareface lie to you for 12 months whilst FOIing them

I'm just weighing up whether to claim just for the delayed leg of my journey (50% DR on a £35 ticket) or for the whole journey (50% DR on a combination of tickets worth £40). There's no difference in the length of the delay whether you consider the whole journey or just the delayed segment. The split ticket involves ending short on the £5 ticket at Paddington, Stratford or Abbey Wood, changing trains there and then continuing on an Advance Single from that station.

It is the operator of the longer segment covered by the Advance, not TfL, that caused the delay and will have to consider the delay repay claim. It can be a struggle, at the best of times, to get them to recognise that they need to pay on the through journey not just their own segment, and to understand it's a valid split even though there's some overlapping validity. I'm happy to go back and forth with them if necessary until they understand that, but I would like to be sure the split doesn't fall foul of 16.5 as that could invalidate the whole claim.

I guess "between place A and place B" is inherently ambiguous, and I didn't write it, so ambiguity should not go against me.

For the sake of £2.50 I might leave it. I definitely wouldn't want the ticket in question to go up in price.

 

[sot]

I suppose it is your prerogative either way.

Depending how hot on that TOC is with regards London transfers, for example I have always have had no end of trouble with GTR brands with the website messing up OSI and normal tube transfers, having to chase up ad infinitum to try and get them to pay.

Whereas WMT and Avanti have never had any issues, sometimes even paying out on obviously makeable, but not actually meeting MCT cross London journeys.

 

[walkingsophie]

I have had a penalty fare appeal accepted for a ticket using 13.1.2 that was not valid via the routeing guide. There's definitely some potential for abuse there

 

[unsatisfied]

I have had a penalty fare appeal accepted for a ticket using 13.1.2 that was not valid via the routeing guide. There's definitely some potential for abuse there

In addition to travelling on the route specified by the journey planner, did you use the exact services listed? Was the itinerary generated in conjunction with a ticket purchase, and if not, where was it generated?
I find following itineraries much simpler than using the Routeing Guide. It removes an element of uncertainty (have I entered the correct route code, have I missed a negative easement?)
Did you show your itinerary to a SWR RPO and have it rejected? If so, I hope they are reminded of the new rules.
Edit: I've found your thread in which you explain

 

[MrJeeves]

Refund changes have been announced on NRE this morning.

Refunds Change | National Rail

From 1 April 2026 the refund conditions for some National Rail train tickets including Anytime tickets, Off-Peak tickets and Day Travelcards are changing.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

What are the changes?

• Anytime tickets
• Off-Peak tickets
• Day Travelcards
• Rover tickets
• Ranger tickets

From 1 April 2026, if you have one of the above tickets and decide not to use it, you will have until 23:59 the day before it becomes valid to request a refund from the retailer who sold it to you. After that you will only be able to claim a refund if your train service has been delayed or cancelled.

We will be ending the practice of accepting refund claims up to 28 days after the date of travel.

 

[OscarH]

Refund changes have been announced on NRE this morning.

Refunds Change | National Rail

From 1 April 2026 the refund conditions for some National Rail train tickets including Anytime tickets, Off-Peak tickets and Day Travelcards are changing.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Based on that list, I'm glad my Evening Out tickets are still refundable :P

 

[Sonic1234]

Saw a poster at Shoreham-by-Sea station about these changes.

For walk up tickets, why wouldn't you buy them just before travel when you know you are going to make the journey and the train is running? Only case to buy them in advance is when they complete a journey being made with an Advance.

 

[OscarH]

Saw a poster at Shoreham-by-Sea station about these changes.

For walk up tickets, why wouldn't you buy them just before travel when you know you are going to make the journey and the train is running? Only case to buy them in advance is when they complete a journey being made with an Advance.

If you're travelling on an intercity service with reserved seats you might want to make sure you can get a good seat (yes you can get a separate reservation, but it's a right faff). You might also just not want the hassle of finding the right ticket on the day, if you've got things planned and it's going to be busy

 

[WelshBluebird]

Saw a poster at Shoreham-by-Sea station about these changes.

For walk up tickets, why wouldn't you buy them just before travel when you know you are going to make the journey and the train is running? Only case to buy them in advance is when they complete a journey being made with an Advance.

You may be booking through a work / corporate portal that requires someone to approve it beforehand.

You may want to ensure you get a seat reservation.

You may want need a ticket to complete a longer journey (essentially what you said).

You may want to avoid the fake sold out rubbish that some ToCs do.

You may be travelling very early and so want to make sure you sort tickets out beforehand.

You may be making a journey that isnt enabled for etickets but are not able to get to your origin station with enough time to sort buying tickets before the train is due.

You may want to ensure you have your ticket before the dsy of travel so the ToC cant try to pull a "well you knew about the disruption / do not travel warnings when you bought your ticket so we wont help you".

Or you may just want to be organised and get tickets sorted before the day.

 

[Haywain]

So, with this change what happens if you buy a ticket on the day and manage to buy the wrong ticket? And what about buying a ticket on your way to the station and then your bus getting delayed so that you miss your train and need to buy a different ticket? The latter happened to me yesterday, and I then found out that the retailer insists on waiting 24 hours before you can request a refund.

 

[Mike395]

So, with this change what happens if you buy a ticket on the day and manage to buy the wrong ticket? And what about buying a ticket on your way to the station and then your bus getting delayed so that you miss your train and need to buy a different ticket? The latter happened to me yesterday, and I then found out that the retailer insists on waiting 24 hours before you can request a refund.

The rules allow for a small same-day refund period of no more than 15 minutes if the ticket is unused. After that, you're stuck with it.

 

[Haywain]

The rules allow for a small same-day refund period of no more than 15 minutes if the ticket is unused. After that, you're stuck with it.

15 minutes is ridiculously tight.

 

[MrJeeves]

Based on that list, I'm glad my Evening Out tickets are still refundable :P

Don't forget your Super Off-Peaks too!

 

[blimmo]

The rules allow for a small same-day refund period of no more than 15 minutes if the ticket is unused. After that, you're stuck with it.

Excellent, as long as the journey is short enough they haven't even managed to remove the fraud risk!

(Yes this reduces it but there are other, less customer unfriendly ways to do that)

 

[yorkie]

So, with this change what happens if you buy a ticket on the day and manage to buy the wrong ticket? And what about buying a ticket on your way to the station and then your bus getting delayed so that you miss your train and need to buy a different ticket? The latter happened to me yesterday, and I then found out that the retailer insists on waiting 24 hours before you can request a refund.
.

Based on my understanding, the rail industry do not have any provision for this and consider it to be a case of "tough luck".

As far as I know, the only exceptions to the rule will be:

• For on-the-day purchases, industry rules will allow retailers to provide a refund within 15 minutes of purchase - but not every retailer will choose to offer this. I imagine it might become a point of differentiation for some retailers?
• If there are 'exceptional circumstances' justifying a refund. No public guidance has been provided on what this means, so you can be sure that there will be arguments about what constitutes 'exceptional circumstances'. The intention is to make this similar to what would justify a refund on an Advance, i.e. medical emergencies etc.
• Service disruption, as now. This will obviously become the easiest ground for requesting a refund - since a decent proportion of multi-connection journeys will have at least one delayed or cancelled train during the course of the day, and it's not always possible to prove or disprove which train someone intended to take.

The waiting period is common to all retailers if you bought an eTicket, at least in terms of when a refund gets processed. Industry standards require them to wait until the day after travel to allow any delayed scan events to be communicated to the industry eTVDs (electronic ticket validation databases).

 

[Haywain]

For on-the-day purchases, industry rules will allow retailers to provide a refund within 15 minutes of purchase - but not every retailer will choose to offer this. I imagine it might become a point of differentiation for some retailers?

Some retailers currently allow up to an hour for correcting errors, so I wonder if that is going to change. I think there is certainly a potential benefit for retailers in how they handle such matters.

The waiting period is common to all retailers if you bought an eTicket, at least in terms of when a refund gets processed. Industry standards require them to wait until the day after travel to allow any delayed scan events to be communicated to the industry eTVDs (electronic ticket validation databases).

The problem there is that if you can only request a refund within 15 minutes, but than you can't request it for 24 hours, we can see how that is going to be handled. It's effectively saying that refunds won't be allowed even if near enough immediately.

 

[Adam Williams]

Some retailers currently allow up to an hour for correcting errors, so I wonder if that is going to change

I've been told categorically we can't maintain the hour long grace period and it's going to have to reduce to 15 minutes.

15 minutes is ridiculously tight.

Yes, it's worse for people with disabilities or perhaps people less confident with technology too. If they're waiting for an email to come through, reading through the details, cross-checking dates... that can easily take longer than 15 minutes.

In theory they can still write in and it can be considered using discretion but the 1hr self-service "undo" period was used by many older customers and those using a Disabled Persons Railcard. Particularly if mistakes were made out of support hours. This will delay refunds undoubtedly, and some customers won't have access to credit.

I did tell RDG this and raised the discrimination concern, but they weren't remotely interested so we are where we are.

 

[Haywain]

If they're waiting for an email to come through, reading through the details, cross-checking dates... that can easily take longer than 15 minutes.

To say nothing of wading through all the nonsense on a website to find out how to actually request a refund.

 

[Adam Williams]

To say nothing of wading through all the nonsense on a website to find out how to actually request a refund.

Yup....

Though this is at least something we can actually try and help address:





It's far from ideal but better than doing nothing, I think.

 

[Haywain]

It's far from ideal but better than doing nothing, I think.

Yes, you're setting a standard that others should follow. If the 'rules' have to be so restrictive it should at least be set up to enable customers to have the best chance of correcting an error in a hassle free way.

 

[sot]

I presume this is queued to send out the ticket after the delay expires? Not allowing viewing or emailing it prior to the undo delay?

 

[py_megapixel]

I presume this is queued to send out the ticket after the delay expires? Not allowing viewing or emailing it prior to the undo delay?

That would prevent passengers from travelling if their train was in the next few minutes.

Personally I probably wouldn't buy a ticket from an app in that case (as I'd already have to be in the station, so it'd be easier to just use a ticket machine) but I imagine some people would want to for various reasons, particularly if they live very close to a station.

 

[Adam Williams]

I presume this is queued to send out the ticket after the delay expires? Not allowing viewing or emailing it prior to the undo delay?

No.

 

[Haywain]

Personally I probably wouldn't buy a ticket from an app in that case (as I'd already have to be in the station, so it'd be easier to just use a ticket machine)

Maybe you're sitting on a bus that should just arrive with enough time for you to get a train at a barriered station but won't allow enough time to buy a ticket at a TVM or ticket office - what then?

 

[sot]

That would prevent passengers from travelling if their train was in the next few minutes.

Personally I probably wouldn't buy a ticket from an app in that case (as I'd already have to be in the station, so it'd be easier to just use a ticket machine) but I imagine some people would want to for various reasons, particularly if they live very close to a station.

I would imagine in a case whereby the train isn't due to leave in say the next 30 minutes delay putting a delay on wouldn't be too much of a bother and then do not do the delay if it is too close

 

[MrJeeves]

I would imagine in a case whereby the train isn't due to leave in say the next 30 minutes delay putting a delay on wouldn't be too much of a bother and then do not do the delay if it is too close

Not very helpful for people starting a journey short.

 

[AdamWW]

Not very helpful for people starting a journey short.

Or someone living near a station who likes to print tickets out to remove the risk of being prosecuted for the crime of having a phone which dies at an inopportune time.

 

[Haywain]

to remove the risk of being prosecuted for the crime of having a phone which dies at an inopportune time.

For goodness sake, does this have to be dragged into every discussion about tickets?

 

[mmh]

For goodness sake, does this have to be dragged into every discussion about tickets?

I note you partially quoted here.

The post you were replying to actually said:

"Or someone living near a station who likes to print tickets out to remove the risk of being prosecuted for the crime of having a phone which dies at an inopportune time."

I think it's rather rude to quote an incomplete sentence and remove the context of someone's comment.

Back on topic, there are many people who print out their e-tickets. I've not come across any retailer that doesn't state that the passenger needs to be able to show it electronically or have a printed copy, so people are actually being encouraged to print them.

 

[Haywain]

I note you partially quoted here.

The post you were replying to actually said:

"Or someone living near a station who likes to print tickets out to remove the risk of being prosecuted for the crime of having a phone which dies at an inopportune time."

I think it's rather rude to quote an incomplete sentence and remove the context of someone's comment.

Back on topic, there are many people who print out their e-tickets. I've not come across any retailer that doesn't state that the passenger needs to be able to show it electronically or have a printed copy, so people are actually being encouraged to print them.

The discussion is about refund rights, not about the perceived disbenefits of eTickets. And that eTickets can be printed does not alter that.