UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Peter Sarf]

I'm saddened to hear this - but I don't think it's necessarily anything to do with electric buses.

When I drove buses back in the 90s, I remember the conversion of the garage from Metros to low floor Plaxton Presidents.

Seemingly perversely, the older passengers preferred the stepped Metros with their longitudinal front seats. When the low floor stuff came in, they would often ask me "Give me a chance to sit down love" because the first seats were so far away!

Hopefully if you specifically ask for a little extra time the driver would respect that.

I think the screen makes talking to the driver difficult (but it is needed for driver security).

I usually aim to look frailer than I (think) I am !.

The electric buses are an impressive change in power. Really I think their acceleration should be limited especially from a standing start. There is no clue the huge burst of acceleration is coming whereas on a diesel its is a more ponderous pull off and of course there is a clue as the engine note changes first. It has sent me down the stairs once when the handrail was ripped out of my reach, felt like we had been shunted by some thing big like a lorry from behind !.

It is a stupendous capability when you think people can be standing or moving around while the bus is moving. If it was a fairground ride the rules would be (are) stricter. Everyone belted in before any movement allowed. The rates of acceleration make this risk real and all it takes is some kind of limiter to avoid the risk.

For an electric car this is not an issue as everyone should be seated and belted in of course.
Though the tyre wear (meaning rubber pollution) for EVS must be higher, firstly for the weight but also if acceleration is made full use of.

 

[GusB]

I can do over 500 miles on a tank of petrol; can an EV do likewise (at an affordable price)? (And I'm not looking for comments saying you can't drive that far without a break. If I want to recharge at home for a fraction of the cost of public chargers, if I don't want to have to queue for a charger on a bank holiday, if I don't want to look for a charger that is working and is compatible, if I want to tow a caravan etc etc, then 500 miles does not sound unreasonable.)

When do you ever need to do 500 miles on a single tank of petrol? I rarely fill my tank to the brim and I'm not sure if my car can take 500 miles-worth of fuel anyway. I tend to top up little and often and generally only fill up if I'm doing a long journey or if these a significant drop in prices that makes filling up worthwhile.

This is a really silly argument and it has been de-bunked so many times in this thread.

The electric buses are an impressive change in power. Really I think their acceleration should be limited especially from a standing start. There is no clue the huge burst of acceleration is coming whereas on a diesel its is a more ponderous pull off and of course there is a clue as the engine note changes first. It has sent me down the stairs once when the handrail was ripped out of my reach, felt like we had been shunted by some thing big like a lorry from behind !.

This isn't a problem with EVs, though - it's a driver issue. People being knocked off their feet as a bus accelerates is nothing new. 15-year-old me used to love it when a driver put the boot down; 51-year-old me isn't quite so enthusiastic about it when I'm boarding with a load of shopping. I will agree that EVs have better acceleration than their diesel counterparts but even in the days when all buses were diesel powered, the smoothness of the journey was more down to the skills of the driver than anything else.

 

[Peter Sarf]

When do you ever need to do 500 miles on a single tank of petrol? I rarely fill my tank to the brim and I'm not sure if my car can take 500 miles-worth of fuel anyway. I tend to top up little and often and generally only fill up if I'm doing a long journey or if these a significant drop in prices that makes filling up worthwhile.

This is a really silly argument and it has been de-bunked so many times in this thread.

It is nice to know on a long journey that I can take a break BUT do not need to look for a charger/filling station and wait to re-charge. Just a short break. But having a 500 mile fuel range does lead to bad behaviour - keep going until the driver is obviously to tired.

This isn't a problem with EVs, though - it's a driver issue. People being knocked off their feet as a bus accelerates is nothing new. 15-year-old me used to love it when a driver put the boot down; 51-year-old me isn't quite so enthusiastic about it when I'm boarding with a load of shopping. I will agree that EVs have better acceleration than their diesel counterparts but even in the days when all buses were diesel powered, the smoothness of the journey was more down to the skills of the driver than anything else.

It is a radical change in unannounced pulling power with an EV. The drivers have not changed but the vehicle has which is why the EVs need limiting.

 

[Harpo]

It is a radical change in unannounced pulling power with an EV. The drivers have not changed but the vehicle has which is why the EVs need limiting.

If only there was a safety regulator for roads who was as obsessive about passenger safety as ORR.

 

[N1]

It is a radical change in unannounced pulling power with an EV. The drivers have not changed but the vehicle has which is why the EVs need limiting.

TFL Specification for New Buses has had an acceleration limit for a number of years now.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If only there was a safety regulator for roads who was as obsessive about passenger safety as ORR.

Hmm, yes. That would really be fair wouldn't it.
(fair has two meanings and I perhaps mean both).

 

[Bletchleyite]

TFL Specification for New Buses has had an acceleration limit for a number of years now.

Though it's change in acceleration that's what knocks you over. That can be rather binary. It's easy to brace against a fast but constant acceleration rate because the force it applies on your body is constant.

It's an interesting one with e-scooters. Lime ones have a near enough binary throttle, whereas Dott ones increase the rate of acceleration on a curve, which is more comfortable though isn't good if you want to get out of a junction quickly.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Though it's change in acceleration that's what knocks you over. That can be rather binary. It's easy to brace against a fast but constant acceleration rate because the force it applies on your body is constant.

It's an interesting one with e-scooters. Lime ones have a near enough binary throttle, whereas Dott ones increase the rate of acceleration on a curve, which is more comfortable though isn't good if you want to get out of a junction quickly.

Strongly agree. No warning and then all out maximum acceleration. No gentle build up.

 

[JamesT]

The electric buses in Oxford read out a little speech about remaining seated until the bus has stopped etc.

 

[3141]

except we are there now on a whole life cost basis.

Maybe we are, but my life will come to an end earlier than that, so it's not a reason for me to buy an EV. Also, I don't want to splash out on a brand new car, so I'd be buying used, and most used EVs don't have the longer range of some of the latest ones, so that's another reason for not buying one.

No doubt there are individual EVs that have a long range and/or can charge quickly, but when I buy a car I choose one that meets my particular needs, and I'm not interested in a car that I wouldn't really want but it's the one that offers outstanding EV features. In other words, buying an EV is not top of my priority list when I'm spending the sort of money that a car costs.

Additionally, while it's only a few times a year that we make longer runs where range matters and we may need to recharge on the way, I want to be able to set off on a long journey with a full tank and know that I won't need to refill until I get there. Yes, I know that we'll need to stop for a break for other reasons, but we do that when and where we choose, not because the car requires it.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The way certain world events are playing out, I'm not sure I'll be able to source or afford a tank of fossil-fuel if it becomes supply-embargoed or rationed.

 

[Mawkie]

Thankfully most of the myths surrounding EVs have been debunked repeatedly.

EVs catch fire a lot: nope.

EVs are so heavy they damage roads: nope

The charging infrastructure is poor: nope

If you can't charge at home, it's not worth it: nope

I won't be able to do long trips: nope

Are we now at a stage where the best argument is "I want to take a break when I want to, not when the car wants to'?

If so, job done I think.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thankfully most of the myths surrounding EVs have been debunked repeatedly.

EVs catch fire a lot: nope.

EVs are so heavy they damage roads: nope

The charging infrastructure is poor: nope

If you can't charge at home, it's not worth it: nope

I won't be able to do long trips: nope

Are we now at a stage where the best argument is "I want to take a break when I want to, not when the car wants to'?

If so, job done I think.

I guess one decision-swayer still holds for those of us who:
a) don't want to be tied into finance-models / loans and
b) have a smaller available budget (sub-£15k for illustrative purposes) and
c) require, for genuine viability, a D-segment sized vehicle.
1-3 year old lower mileage used EV choices seem few.

 

[N1]

I guess one decision-swayer still holds for those of us who:
a) don't want to be tied into finance-models / loans and
b) have a smaller available budget (sub-£15k for illustrative purposes) and
c) require, for genuine viability, a D-segment sized vehicle.
1-3 year old lower mileage used EV choices seem few.

And there are MG5s available that just about fall into this category, 2023 reg, <20,000 miles and are sitting around £15k.

 

[Sun Chariot]

And there are MG5s available that just about fall into this category, 2023 reg, <20,000 miles and are sitting around £15k.

I tried one after it was recommended upthread. The driving seat position didn't fit my 6'6" frame and my 6+' son couldn't sit in rear comfortably

 

[Bletchleyite]

I tried one after it was recommended upthread. The driving seat position didn't fit my 6'6" frame and my 6+' son couldn't sit in rear comfortably

The MG4 is a far, far better vehicle, it's just such a shame they dropped the planned estate version.

Skoda Enyaq might be worth a look but it's a bit more expensive.

The MG5 is basically (near enough) an older model Vauxhall Astra and shares the "lack of space for driver" problem those have.

 

[MotCO]

And there are MG5s available that just about fall into this category, 2023 reg, <20,000 miles and are sitting around £15k.

But it is using technology that is already 3 years out of date. EV technology is improving in leaps and bounds. If I want to buy an EV with my hard-earned cash, I don't want to find when I come to sell the car that the technology has moved on so much that the car has depreciated so much that I get hardly anything for it - certainly not enough to put a deposit down for a new car.

 

[Noddy]

I guess one decision-swayer still holds for those of us who:
a) don't want to be tied into finance-models / loans and
b) have a smaller available budget (sub-£15k for illustrative purposes) and
c) require, for genuine viability, a D-segment sized vehicle.
1-3 year old lower mileage used EV choices seem few.

I’d interested to know how many ICE vehicles would actually meet all that criteria? Just searching Autotrader for ‘family cars’, petrol/diesel/hybrid, max 15k, 2022-2024 years reduces it from circa 440 000 to 2350 results and that’s before you’ve filtered for ‘low mileage’ and D-segment. I suspect most D-segment cars would fall in the ‘family XL’ category of which there are far fewer even before you apply the other filters.

 

[N1]

I tried one after it was recommended upthread. The driving seat position didn't fit my 6'6" frame and my 6+' son couldn't sit in rear comfortably

Fair enough, although you don't get many options in petrol or diesel for the same criteria anymore either.

But it is using technology that is already 3 years out of date. EV technology is improving in leaps and bounds. If I want to buy an EV with my hard-earned cash, I don't want to find when I come to sell the car that the technology has moved on so much that the car has depreciated so much that I get hardly anything for it - certainly not enough to put a deposit down for a new car.

Was answering a specific question about what is on the market up to 3 years old. Depreciation figures stack up favourably to EVs at the moment compared to petrol, diesel and hybrids, before you factor in lower running costs. If you are buying a new car it will depreciate heavily, whatever the fuel. Although smaller EVs tend to depreciate more than up-market electric saloons / SUVs.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Fair enough, although you don't get many options in petrol or diesel for the same criteria anymore either.

Was answering a specific question about what is on the market up to 3 years old. Depreciation figures stack up favourably to EVs at the moment compared to petrol, diesel and hybrids, before you factor in lower running costs. If you are buying a new car it will depreciate heavily, whatever the fuel. Although smaller EVs tend to depreciate more than up-market electric saloons / SUVs.

That is interesting. I used to find big ICE cars I wanted depreciated faster than small ICE cars. I relied on the theory that anyone that could afford a big car often could afford a new one and so the demand for big cars secondhand was rather poor, but those cars usually had a good spec and had been well maintained. That often made a secondhand bigger car cheaper for me as my annual mileage was quite low so fuel costs were not a significant factor. I was originally led towards big cars because I am just over 6 foot tall exacerbated by my long legs and arms. I am talking about cars 10+ years old.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But it is using technology that is already 3 years out of date. EV technology is improving in leaps and bounds. If I want to buy an EV with my hard-earned cash, I don't want to find when I come to sell the car that the technology has moved on so much that the car has depreciated so much that I get hardly anything for it - certainly not enough to put a deposit down for a new car.

That's the wrong approach for buying used. When you buy used a few years old (unless a very premium marque) you are expecting the car to depreciate to very little by the time you sell, anything left is a bonus. That's true of ICE too.

The best way to buy used (given a decent credit rating) is with a personal loan. You don't need any deposit then. PCPs and HP make more sense for new.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I’d interested to know how many ICE vehicles would actually meet all that criteria? Just searching Autotrader for ‘family cars’, petrol/diesel/hybrid, max 15k, 2022-2024 years reduces it from circa 440 000 to 2350 results and that’s before you’ve filtered for ‘low mileage’ and D-segment.

Yes, my post 6133 quoted £15k for illustrative purposes - but it shows how much the market prices have increased, in the past 5+ years.
My current D-segment diesel was bought in cash £14k, as an 11 month old dealer demonstator with the gadgets I'd sought (its cooled seats and heated steering-wheel have proven more useful than I'd perceived). That was nearly 8 years ago and I have put 90k miles onto it.
I'd like to keep below £18k cash for the car which replaces it. Home charging sadly not an option so, for any EV, I'll be using subscription based charging 100% of the time.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Thankfully most of the myths surrounding EVs have been debunked repeatedly.

EVs catch fire a lot: nope.

EVs are so heavy they damage roads: nope

The charging infrastructure is poor: nope

If you can't charge at home, it's not worth it: nope

I won't be able to do long trips: nope

Are we now at a stage where the best argument is "I want to take a break when I want to, not when the car wants to'?

If so, job done I think.

EVs are still too expensive compared to a 10-15 year old ICE car with decent history.

...and you'll have to prise the keys to a car with a manual transmission from my cold, dead hands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

EVs are still too expensive compared to a 10-15 year old ICE car with decent history.

...and you'll have to prise the keys to a car with a manual transmission from my cold, dead hands.

EVs indeed don't make sense for those practicing "bangernomics", though I suspect once they get there they will be more reliable, not less, due to no moving parts. Though the battery life might be reduced, most purchasers of cars of that sort of age are just using them as a second urban runaround, not for very long trips.

You can buy a Nissan Leaf fitting that description for a very good price but only with a 50-100 mile range, fine for an urban runaround if you can charge at home. But others will get there too and will have better range because of having active battery management which the early Leafs lack.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

EVs indeed don't make sense for those practicing "bangernomics", though I suspect once they get there they will be more reliable, not less, due to no moving parts. Though the battery life might be reduced, most purchasers of cars of that sort of age are just using them as a second urban runaround, not for very long trips.

You can buy a Nissan Leaf fitting that description for a very good price but only with a 50-100 mile range, fine for an urban runaround if you can charge at home. But others will get there too and will have better range because of having active battery management which the early Leafs lack.

The "fewer moving parts" thing is a bit of a myth to be honest. I know what I'm doing with minor repairs and maintenance, and can do most things myself. For those I can't do myself I have a local garage that I trust with decades of experience. Newer cars (whether EV or ICE) need a laptop and a bank loan to change a defective bulb. (I'm being a bit hyperbolic there, but you get the point).
I don't do long journeys that often, but I need my car to be capable of doing so on those occasions that I do. I live alone so I need one car that will do everything I need, I live in a flat so can't charge at home.

But again, the key factor for me is the enjoyment and engagement of driving a car with a manual transmission. I've no interest in an automatic, let alone an EV.

Going back to the summary list posted further up this page, the fire issue isn't that "EVs catch fire more" it's that when they do catch fire, it's often more severe. This has also been pointed out multiple times.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

You can buy a Nissan Leaf fitting that description for a very good price but only with a 50-100 mile range, fine for an urban runaround if you can charge at home. But others will get there too and will have better range because of having active battery management which the early Leafs lack.

If I needed a car (which fortunately, I don't), I would probably have something exactly like that.
Unless completely unavoidable I will do all my travel by train.

Pulling up autotrader (not for any specific reason, they were just the top of the list when I searched for "car"), I can see a 2013 Nissan Leaf for ~£1.4k (literally the cheapest EV on the site) with a claimed range of 50-70miles.

Here we have a Mechanically sound nissan leaf visia. In white.
Advisory free mot until oct 2026.

10 of 12 bars giving a range of 50-70miles depending on driving style and conditions.

Link example:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202602280289264?sort=price-asc&searchId=c4414ff3-96ae-4c52-9a26-2f6325f5745f&fuel-type=Electric&make=&page=1&postcode=M46+9AA&year-to=2020&advertising-location=at_cars&fromsra=&backLinkQueryParams=channel%3Dcars%26fuel-type%3DElectric%26make%3D%26postcode%3DM46%25209AA%26sort%3Dprice-asc%26year-to%3D2020%26flrfc%3D1&calc-deposit=140&calc-term=48&calc-mileage=10000

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If I needed a car (which fortunately, I don't), I would probably have something exactly like that.
Unless completely unavoidable I will do all my travel by train.

Pulling up autotrader (not for any specific reason, they were just the top of the list when I searched for "car"), I can see a 2013 Nissan Leaf for ~£1.4k (literally the cheapest EV on the site) with a claimed range of 50-70miles.


Link example:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202602280289264?sort=price-asc&searchId=c4414ff3-96ae-4c52-9a26-2f6325f5745f&fuel-type=Electric&make=&page=1&postcode=M46+9AA&year-to=2020&advertising-location=at_cars&fromsra=&backLinkQueryParams=channel%3Dcars%26fuel-type%3DElectric%26make%3D%26postcode%3DM46%25209AA%26sort%3Dprice-asc%26year-to%3D2020%26flrfc%3D1&calc-deposit=140&calc-term=48&calc-mileage=10000

Even if you only do short local trips, that sort of range is pretty much useless for those who can't charge at home. Even with just local trips a few times a week, the miles quickly add up. That car is basically scrap, it's an oversized mobility scooter.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Even if you only do short local trips, that sort of range is pretty much useless for those who can't charge at home. Even with just local trips a few times a week, the miles quickly add up. That car is basically scrap, it's an oversized mobility scooter.

A significantly large amount of people (including myself) have access to a driveway/front garden for parking, are we still continuing with this argument? My post was very clearly "If I needed a car", not a theoretical person.

I could just charge it from the house power supply, I wouldn't need it to be any fast.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A significantly large amount of people (including myself) have access to a driveway/front garden for parking, are we still continuing with this argument? My post was very clearly "If I needed a car", not a theoretical person.

I could just charge it from the house power supply, I wouldn't need it to be any fast.

I live in a flat in a converted mill building with no dedicated parking. I'm on the ground floor but at the rear of the building. My neighbour at the front couldn't run a cable out of his window, across the pavement and several metres up the road to beyond the parking restrictions to charge an EV, so I certainly couldn't. The "bangernomics" approach doesn't work for EVs precisely because the compromises you'd be making on range are exactly the things that make "bangernomics" impractical. If I had that Nissan Leaf mentioned a couple of posts back, I'd have to make trips to charge elsewhere. When you're talking about a 70-90 mile range, you have to think about every single trip- this isn't the case with an ICE car that does 400 miles (so at the lower end) on a full tank.

If you have a driveway you're in a position of privilege.

 

[mmh]

Thankfully most of the myths surrounding EVs have been debunked repeatedly.

EVs catch fire a lot: nope.

EVs are so heavy they damage roads: nope

The charging infrastructure is poor: nope

If you can't charge at home, it's not worth it: nope

I won't be able to do long trips: nope

Are we now at a stage where the best argument is "I want to take a break when I want to, not when the car wants to'?

If so, job done I think.

Blimey, pretty much all of those are true!

(by the way, you've missed out what happens when someone inadvertently runs out of power)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2026 ==

Pulling up autotrader (not for any specific reason, they were just the top of the list when I searched for "car"), I can see a 2013 Nissan Leaf for ~£1.4k (literally the cheapest EV on the site) with a claimed range of 50-70miles.

A car with a 50 mile range is a dangerous hazard in waiting and should be scrapped.