Who should be responsible for overcrowding on trains during special events?

[iamraymond]

I wish the same could be said for up north. On one occasion, leaving Manchester towards Leeds via Bradford after a Manchester United match at Old Trafford (I was travelling for other reasons), we were greeted with a 2 car 158, and no extra services were provided either. Fortunately, staff did the best thing they could’ve done with the train available and restricted football hooligans to one coach, with everyone else in the other.

How did they identify the football hooligans? I assume you carry some form of ID that entitles you to snobbery and thus have rail your way?

 

[Topological]

How did they identify the football hooligans? I assume you carry some form of ID that entitles you to snobbery and thus have rail your way?

One of those staff who thinks they can assess the cut of someone's jib no doubt.

If it really happened, then it is disgraceful.

 

[zwk500]

However, during these times, Train Operating Companies don’t usually increase the service provision to match the increased demand, as there are simply no extra trains to do so.

For many major events trains are strengthened or additional services run. I know they are for events at Premier League stadia, or the various national stadia of comparable size. Some events venues don't get increased service (Coventry, infamously) but I'd be interested to know how 'usual' or not it was.

 

[amahy]

How did they identify the football hooligans? I assume you carry some form of ID that entitles you to snobbery and thus have rail your way?

It was pretty obvious to tell who the football hooligans were, from the scarfs and shouting football chants at the top of their voices! I will refer you back to post #18. It's not unreasonable to expect the law about anti-social behaviour to be upheld!

One of those staff who thinks they can assess the cut of someone's jib no doubt.

If it really happened, then it is disgraceful.

How inconsiderate of you. There were some very young children and babies in prams on that train. It wouldn't have set a good example for them, to have to witness grown men behaving like primary school children.

 

[Topological]

It was pretty obvious to tell who the football hooligans were, from the scarfs and shouting football chants at the top of their voices! I will refer you back to post #18. It's not unreasonable to expect the law about anti-social behaviour to be upheld!

How inconsiderate of you. There were some very young children and babies in prams on that train. It wouldn't have set a good example for them, to have to witness grown men behaving like primary school children.

What on earth are you on about?

You do not know if I was on your train or not.

I don't think it sets a good example for someone to discriminate in the way you do. Tolerance is a very important lesson to teach.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Mar 2026 ==

For many major events trains are strengthened or additional services run. I know they are for events at Premier League stadia, or the various national stadia of comparable size. Some events venues don't get increased service (Coventry, infamously) but I'd be interested to know how 'usual' or not it was.

It is a few years since I went to the Ricoh (16, but I try not to think about that as it ages me), but they had an excellent bus service and that worked better with trains from Coventry station.

 

[35B]

What on earth are you on about?

You do not know if I was on your train or not.

I don't think it sets a good example for someone to discriminate in the way you do. Tolerance is a very important lesson to teach.

Indeed it is. But having endured journeys with groups of fans, their behaviour can test tolerance to its limits - a Hull Trains 180 from St Pancras to Grantham with celebrating fans was a low point with all of the behaviours that @amahy detests strongly in evidence.

Within a closed environment, the boundary between "boisterous" and "anti-social" is very fine. And "tolerance" goes both ways - I fail to see why those just wanting a quiet journey should the ones who have to be tolerant

 

[Haywain]

Within a closed environment, the boundary between "boisterous" and "anti-social" is very fine.

Yes, and it's a boundary that the OP seems not to recognise.

 

[amahy]

What on earth are you on about?

You do not know if I was on your train or not.

I don't think it sets a good example for someone to discriminate in the way you do. Tolerance is a very important lesson to teach.

I would argue that this incident was a perfect example of positive discrimination.

Northern clearly didn't have enough trains available for the volume of extra passengers leaving the match at Old Trafford, so the BTP and other train staff made the best of a bad situation. The football fans in question were clearly drunk, jumping around all over the place and shouting and singing at the top of their voices, clear signs of anti-social behaviour. There was a healthy BTP presence at Manchester Victoria to guide football fans into the rear coach, and other passengers into the front coach. A group of BTP officers were on the train throughout the journey. This made it safer for all passengers, by eliminating the risk of conflict between football fans, and regular passengers, that would've all been annoyed if they had to put up with an hour and a half of "United is the best" at 100+ decibels.

I'd also like to add that both halves of the train were full and standing, so it wasn't a great situation for anyone. But mixing drunk football fans with mothers and babies would've been a recipe for disaster. So no, the segregation of football fans and everyone else was not "disgraceful".

And in regards to "tolerance", I'd like to remind you that both parties in these type of incidents are fare paying passengers, so both parties expect a pleasant journey. Many people would think twice about using the railways again, if they had an experience like @35B described.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Mar 2026 ==

Yes, and it's a boundary that the OP seems not to recognise.

Where do you think that the boundary is then? In my opinion, shouting at the top of your voice and stomping up and down definitely crosses into the realm of anti-social behaviour, and breaking the law.

To further evidence my point, I'll quote relevant sections of Railway Byelaws 6 and 7:

"No person shall behave in a disorderly, indecent or offensive manner on the
railway."

"Except with written permission from an Operator no person on the railway
shall, to the annoyance of any person:
(i) sing; or..."

 

[Topological]

You want to pay the necessary tax to police and charge anyone who sings on a train? Feel free, but please do not expect mass take-up of the financial liability for that one.

Criminal damage, yes we need to do something about that. A bit of volume...

Try joining in, might be therapeutic (though note United are not the best )

I actually believe that the expression of tribalism through sport and the associated mutually tolerated sense of identity is much better than some of the harmful forms that we are seeing growing on social media since sport got clamped down upon.

Genuinely, just avoid sporting fixture times if noise is a problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While singing is also counter to Bylaw 7 I find it much less annoying than playing stuff out loud on phones.

Unfortunately, that offence is also very commonly committed by football louts. And traincrew will usually not feel safe to challenge them.

 

[yorksrob]

GWML electrification only assists flows towards London currently, where suburban EMUs can operate. It does nothing for Swansea and West Wales where, for internationals in BR days, London commuter sets enabled uplifts such as the loco-hauling of most Milfords and their extension to/from Cardiff with the displaced DMUs assisting the Valleys.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Mar 2026 ==


Ah football! Wrong shaped balls. (Sportswise.)

I'm sure I read something about them sending middle distance EMU's as far as Cardiff for this purpose.

 

[The exile]

I'm sure I read something about them sending middle distance EMU's as far as Cardiff for this purpose.

Happens daily anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

387s can be pressed into service to Cardiff now, which is some progress. Shame that they can't go to Bristol.

Indeed. This is the sort of arrangement we should be aiming for.

 

[NCT]

There are two separate issues - volume and behaviour.

Volume - crowds are easiest to mop up when there are metro-frequency big trains. For stadiums on the tube network the normal service level is sufficient (albeit trains need to be crush loaded), but you do need crowd control in place. With a bit of incremental improvement Manchester Metrolink should be able to deal with a decent proportion of Etihad and Old Traffic volumes - they are sufficiently close to Manchester city centre that the other sizeable proportion can be encouraged to walk. Where the base service level or capacity has no hope of accommodating the volumes then closure is inevitable - like Holloway Road and Drayton Park, and until recently Coventry Park was closed on match days. In city centre locations you hope punters would disappear into pubs first so their boarding rail services is staggered.

Behaviour - there seems to be a tendency on this forum to expect all behaviours to be policed, and that the railway (an industry among many) is somehow capable of resolving social issues with complex deep rooted causes, or that it should enforce a very specific set of social preferences, and certain individuals are quite happy to advocate blatantly discriminatory practices.

 

[Harpo]

you hope punters would disappear into pubs first so their boarding rail services is staggered.

With the ‘disappearing’ and staggering usually in proportion to each other.

 

[Haywain]

With a bit of incremental improvement Manchester Metrolink should be able to deal with a decent proportion of Etihad and Old Traffic volumes - they are sufficiently close to Manchester city centre that the other sizeable proportion can be encouraged to walk.

I would say both are far enough out that there is a less concentrated rush at the city centre stations than if they were closer.

With the ‘disappearing’ and staggering usually in proportion to each other.

No, a high proportion of pub users are capable of having a beer or two and not staggering.

 

[The exile]

and certain individuals are quite happy to advocate blatantly discriminatory practices.

While others seem blind to the fact that one person’s “boisterous behaviour” is another’s intimidating and threatening situation. The “Truth”, as usual, probably lies somewhere in between.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

I wish the same could be said for up north. On one occasion, leaving Manchester towards Leeds via Bradford after a Manchester United match at Old Trafford (I was travelling for other reasons), we were greeted with a 2 car 158, and no extra services were provided either. Fortunately, staff did the best thing they could’ve done with the train available and restricted football hooligans to one coach, with everyone else in the other.

Ive had a lot of experiences like this, while Thameslink run 8 and 12 carriage trains, the best we get is 6 cars on 2 lines, hope these new trains resolve these issues. As it feels we are currently stuck in a BR Era.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ive had a lot of experiences like this, while Thameslink run 8 and 12 carriage trains, the best we get is 6 cars on 2 lines, hope these new trains resolve these issues. As it feels we are currently stuck in a BR Era.

To be fair in capacity terms 6x24 is about the same as 8x20.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Ultimately, both are good for post-match train services (Twickenham is excellent) and they keep cars away from major centres.

Agree that Twickenham station is very well optimised and people are generally very well behaved. The difference is that SWR is blessed with a network and fleet that is designed to deliver the highest possible people-moving volume. Most places that host big events aren't.

However, the number of people can lead to long queues for London-bound trains at Twickenham after the match. I have personally walked to Richmond and Hounslow East in the past - they are both about 2 miles and doable for those with no mobility issues and probably similar time, depending on where you are headed and whether you mind a scenic route. Have yet to try Hounslow.

Would also note the ripple effect that events can have - e.g. Twickenham matchdays does ratchet up overcrowding on Saturday morning EMR IC services, which are often full south of Leicester at this time from other demand.

387s can be pressed into service to Cardiff now, which is some progress. Shame that they can't go to Bristol.

If MMLE had not been cancelled again paused, then I could imagine 360s also doing this type of thing. This type of thing is a good idea to make services more flexible and responsive to short-term abnormal demand (whether it's an external event or "self-inflicted" by engineering work). There is usually some abnormal demand somewhere! That it's usually handled quite badly from a passenger perspective is unfortunate, but as others have noted, fragmented optimisation of individual routes to try to squeeze more and more capacity on "normal" days means there isn't much resilience to anything "abnormal".

 

[Mikey C]

Volume - crowds are easiest to mop up when there are metro-frequency big trains. For stadiums on the tube network the normal service level is sufficient (albeit trains need to be crush loaded), but you do need crowd control in place. With a bit of incremental improvement Manchester Metrolink should be able to deal with a decent proportion of Etihad and Old Traffic volumes - they are sufficiently close to Manchester city centre that the other sizeable proportion can be encouraged to walk. Where the base service level or capacity has no hope of accommodating the volumes then closure is inevitable - like Holloway Road and Drayton Park, and until recently Coventry Park was closed on match days. In city centre locations you hope punters would disappear into pubs first so their boarding rail services is staggered.

The Etihad is on one line only, but is perhaps a little bit closer to the centre. I'm not sure there's much around it in terms of pubs though, unlike Old Trafford which has the historic football and cricket grounds.

Old Trafford has several branches of the Metrolink near it, which will help spread the load. On a visit 3 years ago, I walked to Firswood for example.

 

[6Gman]

As always, there are differences of experience. But I would argue that 500 men jumping up and down and shouting football chants at the top of their voices definitely counts as anti-social behaviour! This is what I witnessed a few years ago on a Northern 319 at Manchester Piccadilly on a matchday, to the point that you could see the whole train shaking while at a stand (although fortunately, that wasn't my train).

Stay away from Grand National Day on Merseyrail then!

These events happen. They will continue to happen.

If they cause you distress then I don't see any better solution than making your travel plans carefully.

 

[Haywain]

Stay away from Grand National Day on Merseyrail then!

Isn't "Ladies Day" the one to avoid?

 

[amahy]

Stay away from Grand National Day on Merseyrail then!

These events happen. They will continue to happen.

If they cause you distress then I don't see any better solution than making your travel plans carefully.

I do generally try to avoid travelling when such events are taking place, but occasionally, I don’t have much choice. Especially as I don’t own or drive a car.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

To be fair in capacity terms 6x24 is about the same as 8x20.

This still doesn’t excuse 2 car units pulling up most of the time.

 

[Falcon1200]

For many, many years, as well as the normal service, additional trains have run between Glasgow Central and Mount Florida for major events at Hampden Park stadium. However a queuing system at Central meant that once a train was full it was despatched, and if you were travelling on a train going beyond Mount Florida but were still in the queue.... Tough, you missed your train! Nowadays I simply avoid travelling at such times, having the luxury of being able to do so.

 

[AF91]

Having planned for special events at a few places on the network, the first thing I'd say is that the need for occasional strengthening needs to be taken into consideration when planning fleet allocations. I'm not talking about a vast amount of extra units but just a few extra units available for routes to be able to stregthen the odd train or run one or two additional services when required.

I had wondered whether GBR could set up its own charter operation with a number of suitable train sets that could get put into action where most required week on week. It wouldn't be able to cover everything but could at least take some pressure off normal services somewhere on the network on a regular basis. You'd think with all the various events across the country throughout the year as well as all the engineering work, there would be suitable work for the charter sets most weeks.

 

[35B]

Having planned for special events at a few places on the network, the first thing I'd say is that the need for occasional strengthening needs to be taken into consideration when planning fleet allocations. I'm not talking about a vast amount of extra units but just a few extra units available for routes to be able to stregthen the odd train or run one or two additional services when required.

I had wondered whether GBR could set up its own charter operation with a number of suitable train sets that could get put into action where most required week on week. It wouldn't be able to cover everything but could at least take some pressure off normal services somewhere on the network on a regular basis. You'd think with all the various events across the country throughout the year as well as all the engineering work, there would be suitable work for the charter sets most weeks.

The immediate question is “operated by whom?”. Traction knowledge is quite diverse, and not easily ported, so that national fleet would raise significant practical questions about crew knowledge.

If lowest cost weren’t the driving factor so often, I’d suggest you’re more right in your first paragraph - better by far to have fleets with a little more capacity so trains can be strengthened and/or reliefs run within the existing structure.

 

[JonathanH]

Just to prove that the railway does sometimes make good provision for events, there are two late 12-car trains from Southampton back to Waterloo this evening at 2325 and 2355 - arrival times at 0121 and 0156.

Realtime Trains | 1B96 2325 Southampton Central to London Waterloo | 04/04/2026

Real-time train running information for 1B96 2325 departure from Southampton Central to London Waterloo on 04/04/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1B98 2355 Southampton Central to London Waterloo | 04/04/2026

Real-time train running information for 1B98 2355 departure from Southampton Central to London Waterloo on 04/04/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Engineering work means these go via Guildford.

 

[JohnofWessex]

May I suggest.........

Firstly as far as I can see stadiums etc seem to have a blanket permit to put on what they like, unlike 'one offs' eg Glastonbury Festival

So I suggest that all major events should be licensed. While football violence is much diminished it would mean that clubs that have a poor reputation for supporters behaviour would have a strong incentive to address it.

Then there is the issue of 'intoxication' which has been discussed on other threads but should intoxicated/abusive people be allowed onto stations?

Finally if we have a National Public Transport system it needs to be able to handle major public events as part of its remit. Clearly the good old 47 & a rake of MK1's that most drivers sign and can go almost anywhere has a lot to be said for it. The Stock for lines approach that happens these days clearly has some serious limitations.