Who should be responsible for overcrowding on trains during special events?

[amahy]

Quite frequently on this forum, I have seen posts and threads dedicated to overcrowding incidents caused by special events, mostly sporting events and concerts. However, during these times, Train Operating Companies don’t usually increase the service provision to match the increased demand, as there are simply no extra trains to do so.

It is also unfair on regular passengers. Take Cardiff rugby events as an example, where a queue system is put in place. Why should regular travellers have to put up with mobs of out-of-control drunks that only use the train so they can drink? I realise that I may be coming across as a snob here, but this kind of thing has ruined many journeys for me.

Given that this has been a regular problem for decades now, what could be done to resolve the issue? From time to time, football specials are organised by charter operators, but these are few and far between, and usually only organised for the biggest events in London. Could more special events trains be organised? And who should be responsible for organising said trains? The rail industry itself, or the event organisers?

 

[Sun Chariot]

In decades past, hundreds (literally) of railway carriages would sit idle much of the calendar year; and used only for the adhoc passenger demand - seasonal / holidaying traffic, sporting / cultural / religious events, excursions.
The rest of the calendar year, all those depreciating financial assets sat earning no revenue but they still consumed costs: cleaning, repair / maintenance, pre-heating (if used in winter); the permanent way they sat on, maintenance / repair costs.

Even before Privatisation - but particularly since - the UK's railways have operated as businesses, with a high focus on Profit and Loss. Bottom line on financial accounts, is king.
Plus, leased rolling-stock typically has all manner of terms and conditons upon the TOC, regarding care / maintenance of the leased stock. Idle stock costs capital but it does not generate revenue.

Even the notion of using stabled TOC units carries costs for track access, crewing; the paths will need to be submitted in advance. Those units might then miss scheduled cleaning / servicing time-slots. Crews may need additonal rest day(s).

 

[Magdalia]

Could more special events trains be organised? And who should be responsible for organising said trains? The rail industry itself, or the event organisers?

New stadia sometimes have commitments to support public transport as part of obtaining planning permission.

This applied at Ashburton Grove after Arsenal moved from Highbury with the football club helping to pay for additional trains run by FCC on matchdays. I think these stopped when the Thameslink timetable was introduced.

Southern provide lots of additional capacity for Brighton home games. I don't know if that is linked to commitments as part of obtaining planning permission for their new stadium at Falmer.

For Spurs at White Hart Lane there is a long history of additional rail capacity on matchdays. These days TfL run additional trains on the Enfield branch and Greater Anglia stop trains specially at Northumberland Park.

Greater Anglia also run special services for other events. Last year, when Ipswich were in the Premiership, there was an Ipswich-Ely relief after some home games, and there are almost always extra trains for the Old Farm derby matches. There has also been special services to/from Chelmsford for festivals. But the most extreme example was the Olympic Games special timetable in 2012.

And anyone who has been to football at Wembley will know how TfL and Chiltern provide the necessary transport capacity.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It is also unfair on regular passengers. Take Cardiff rugby events as an example, where a queue system is put in place. Why should regular travellers have to put up with mobs of out-of-control drunks that only use the train so they can drink? I realise that I may be coming across as a snob here, but this kind of thing has ruined many journeys for me.

Most people using the train for such events are also "regular passengers".

 

[The Planner]

Quite frequently on this forum, I have seen posts and threads dedicated to overcrowding incidents caused by special events, mostly sporting events and concerts. However, during these times, Train Operating Companies don’t usually increase the service provision to match the increased demand, as there are simply no extra trains to do so.

It is also unfair on regular passengers. Take Cardiff rugby events as an example, where a queue system is put in place. Why should regular travellers have to put up with mobs of out-of-control drunks that only use the train so they can drink? I realise that I may be coming across as a snob here, but this kind of thing has ruined many journeys for me.

Given that this has been a regular problem for decades now, what could be done to resolve the issue? From time to time, football specials are organised by charter operators, but these are few and far between, and usually only organised for the biggest events in London. Could more special events trains be organised? And who should be responsible for organising said trains? The rail industry itself, or the event organisers?

It ends up as an industry cost as if it doesnt provide some sort of mitigation it just ends up as bad PR.

 

[amahy]

New stadia sometimes have commitments to support public transport as part of obtaining planning permission.

This applied at Ashburton Grove after Arsenal moved from Highbury with the football club helping to pay for additional trains run by FCC on matchdays. I think these stopped when the Thameslink timetable was introduced.

Southern provide lots of additional capacity for Brighton home games. I don't know if that is linked to commitments as part of obtaining planning permission for their new stadium at Falmer.

For Spurs at White Hart Lane there is a long history of additional rail capacity on matchdays. These days TfL run additional trains on the Enfield branch and Greater Anglia stop trains specially at Northumberland Park.

Greater Anglia also run special services for other events. Last year, when Ipswich were in the Premiership, there was an Ipswich-Ely relief after some home games, and there are almost always extra trains for the Old Farm derby matches. There has also been special services to/from Chelmsford for festivals. But the most extreme example was the Olympic Games special timetable in 2012.

And anyone who has been to football at Wembley will know how TfL and Chiltern provide the necessary transport capacity.

I wish the same could be said for up north. On one occasion, leaving Manchester towards Leeds via Bradford after a Manchester United match at Old Trafford (I was travelling for other reasons), we were greeted with a 2 car 158, and no extra services were provided either. Fortunately, staff did the best thing they could’ve done with the train available and restricted football hooligans to one coach, with everyone else in the other.

 

[stevieinselby]

I guess in part, it depends how often these events happen. If it's something that's more or less every week then I would absolutely expect train operators to have sufficient provision to cope with them. If it's once or twice a year then that's a different matter. Ultimately, keeping a load of spare rolling stock on standby just so that it can be used a handful of times a year is not cost effective – even if we had a railway equivalent of Fraser Eagle who had a stash of "go anywhere" trains that could be deployed to wherever in the country needed them at a particular time. You then have the question of whether the infrastructure can accommodate the extra traffic, in terms of track paths and passenger flows.

My view would be that the venues should, as part of their licencing, be required to have a travel plan that ensures there is appropriate provision for transporting visitors in and out of the event, and that that plan is communicated effectively to those visitors. If that means coordinating a bunch of coaches because the railways can't cope with the number of extra passengers that the event would generate then that's what they should do.

Compare and contrast with the British Grand Prix – where the A43, a major dual carriageway trunk route, is completely closed to through traffic for the whole weekend, and "regular motorists" just have to find an alternative route – or try to avoid travelling for those two days if there is no easy alternative.

 

[Haywain]

Why should regular travellers have to put up with mobs of out-of-control drunks that only use the train so they can drink? I realise that I may be coming across as a snob here, but this kind of thing has ruined many journeys for me.

You do come across as a snob, and I would suggest that when planning your journeys you should have a look at what events are taking place that may cause you such horrific discomfort and plan to avoid them.

 

[Krokodil]

In decades past, hundreds (literally) of railway carriages would sit idle much of the calendar year; and used only for the adhoc passenger demand - seasonal / holidaying traffic, sporting / cultural / religious events, excursions.
The rest of the calendar year, all those depreciating financial assets sat earning no revenue but they still consumed costs: cleaning, repair / maintenance, pre-heating (if used in winter); the permanent way they sat on, maintenance / repair costs.

Back when it was Mk1s, those costs were pretty low. The vehicles were fully depreciated and the amount of maintenance a Mk1 requires is a fraction of the maintenance required by a more modern vehicle. It also helped that a train was a train so there was no issue using Old Oak Common's rakes of Mk1s on commuter crowdbusters behind any old loco during the week.

even if we had a railway equivalent of Fraser Eagle who had a stash of "go anywhere" trains that could be deployed to wherever in the country needed them at a particular time

Wasn't that the role filled by Riviera? I remember rakes of 67s+Mk2s on Rugby crowdbusters to Cardiff from London. Likewise the stops got pulled out for the Queen's funeral, with both LSL and WCRC providing crewed trains to Avanti/Network Rail.

 

[Ediswan]

You do come across as a snob, and I would suggest that when planning your journeys you should have a look at what events are taking place that may cause you such horrific discomfort and plan to avoid them.

Is there a convenient consolidated source of this information ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there a convenient consolidated source of this information ?

Easiest way is to ask one of the AI things, which will do some Googling for you and collate results. Google's seems to do it quite well.

For instance I entered:

"What events are on in Manchester this weekend which might result in overcrowded transport?"

and got:

While there are no major home matches for Manchester City or Manchester United this weekend (6–8 March 2026), several local events and fan gatherings in Manchester city centre and Trafford could lead to busier transport services
.

Major Local Events

• Manchester Holi Festival (8 March): This large-scale, vibrant celebration of the Festival of Colours will take place at Six Trees Kitchen in Trafford Park. Expect increased demand for buses and trams heading toward the Trafford Centre and surrounding industrial areas during the day.
• Neurosonic Day Rave (7 March): A 12-hour multi-genre electronic music event at Off The Square in the Northern Quarter. This, combined with the Manchester Activity Day at the Central Library, is likely to make central hubs like Piccadilly and St Peter’s Square busier than usual on Saturday afternoon.
• Pixelate Rave (6 March): A popular internet-nostalgia-themed event has been upgraded to a larger capacity at Gorilla on Whitworth Street due to high demand. This will likely result in crowded trains and late-night transport around Manchester Oxford Road station.

Other Notable Events

• Manchester Calling (7 March): A Eurovision-themed cabaret and screening event at Bar Pop on Canal Street.
• The Monochrome Set (6 March): A 40th-anniversary concert at The Deaf Institute on Grosvenor Street.
• Battle of Ideas North (7 March): A day-long festival featuring debates at the Pendulum Hotel near Sackville Street.
• Poppy - Constantly Nowhere Tour (6 March): Performance at the O2 Ritz Manchester on Whitworth Street West.
• Metal 2 The Masses (8 March): A heavy metal competition heat at Rebellion Manchester.

Sports Impact

• Away Travel: Both major football clubs are playing away this weekend. Manchester United is away at Newcastle on Wednesday, 4 March, but has no fixture listed for this coming weekend. Manchester City is away at Newcastle on Saturday evening, 7 March, which may lead to higher-than-normal passenger numbers on northbound rail services from Manchester Piccadilly.
• Rugby Union (6 March): A dedicated viewing event for the Six Nations (Ireland vs. Wales) at Freight Island near Piccadilly may draw large crowds on Friday evening.

AI responses may include mistakes. Learn more

This was from going to google.com and selecting AI mode.

 

[Haywain]

Is there a convenient consolidated source of this information ?

I think there are numerous sources for details of sporting fixtures, and it appears to be those that the OP has a problem with.

 

[Harpo]

Take Cardiff rugby events as an example, where a queue system is put in place. Why should regular travellers have to put up with mobs of out-of-control drunks that only use the train so they can drink? I realise that I may be coming across as a snob here

You must go to very different events to me. I’ve been to Twickenham and the Millenium Stadium (or whatever it is these days) around a dozen times each (including concerts) and have never seen anti-social behaviour, inside or out. I can’t say the same about Cardiff city centre on a Friday or Saturday night though.

Ultimately, both are good for post-match train services (Twickenham is excellent) and they keep cars away from major centres.

 

[6Gman]

I wish the same could be said for up north. On one occasion, leaving Manchester towards Leeds via Bradford after a Manchester United match at Old Trafford (I was travelling for other reasons), we were greeted with a 2 car 158, and no extra services were provided either. Fortunately, staff did the best thing they could’ve done with the train available and restricted football hooligans to one coach, with everyone else in the other.

If they were hooligans shouldn't they have been denied travel?

My policy is to check football fixtures and adjust my travel accordingly.

 

[Darandio]

and restricted football hooligans to one coach

Were they hooligans? Or just fans travelling to and from a game?

 

[Mikey C]

How much money does "the railway" make/lose from such travel for major events? There's the cost of providing extra services and stewarding staff at busy stations, but there's also a lot of extra revenue.

On every Saturday during the season for example there will be lots of football fans crossing the country to go to games. And on the "inter city" services, going in both directions too.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Why should regular travellers have to put up with mobs of out-of-control drunks that only use the train so they can drink? I realise that I may be coming across as a snob here, but this kind of thing has ruined many journeys for me.

That behaviour was typical of what I endured out of Liverpool Street's scheduled late-timed services, most Thursday/Friday evenings. Drunk loud and - often - utterly obnoxious male and female (regular travellers of working-age & business-clothed) behaviour...

The occasion/event does not make the drunkard - the person does.

 

[amahy]

You do come across as a snob, and I would suggest that when planning your journeys you should have a look at what events are taking place that may cause you such horrific discomfort and plan to avoid them.

But is it not too much to ask to expect a comfortable train journey, free of anti-social behaviour? Especially given the generally high prices of train journeys in the UK. In terms of the law, anti-social behaviour is just as illegal as fare evasion!

 

[Harpo]

But is it not too much to ask to expect a comfortable train journey, free of anti-social behaviour? Especially given the generally high prices of train journeys in the UK. In terms of the law, anti-social behaviour is just as illegal as fare evasion!

But, as I observed above, anti-social behaviour isn’t necessarily a product of major events in my experience. Quite the reverse in fact.

 

[Dai Corner]

The passengers who insist on boarding overcrowded trains instead of waiting for later ones?

At Cardiff Central they are made to queue outside after major events and let in a trainload at a time when a train to their destination is ready. This doesn't work for arrivals before the event, of course.

 

[yorksrob]

Really the best approach that could be hoped for in this day and age, is to electrify secondary and commuter routes alongside the main line, so that spare commuter capacity can be used to crowd bust at weekends.

I think that this is one of the aims of the great western electrification.

 

[amahy]

But, as I observed above, anti-social behaviour isn’t necessarily a product of major events in my experience. Quite the reverse in fact.

As always, there are differences of experience. But I would argue that 500 men jumping up and down and shouting football chants at the top of their voices definitely counts as anti-social behaviour! This is what I witnessed a few years ago on a Northern 319 at Manchester Piccadilly on a matchday, to the point that you could see the whole train shaking while at a stand (although fortunately, that wasn't my train).

The passengers who insist on boarding overcrowded trains instead of waiting for later ones?

At Cardiff Central they are made to queue outside after major events and let in a trainload at a time when a train to their destination is ready. This doesn't work for arrivals before the event, of course.

If a passenger looks at a train timetable, and sees a train at a time that's conveninent for them, that's the train they'll want to get! So it's only common sense that those popular trains should have more carriages. In the case of an event, these are the services immediately before and after the event. Although in my experience, there always seems to be more overcrowding caused by people leaving the event.

 

[Harpo]

Really the best approach that could be hoped for in this day and age, is to electrify secondary and commuter routes alongside the main line, so that spare commuter capacity can be used to crowd bust at weekends.

I think that this is one of the aims of the great western electrification.

GWML electrification only assists flows towards London currently, where suburban EMUs can operate. It does nothing for Swansea and West Wales where, for internationals in BR days, London commuter sets enabled uplifts such as the loco-hauling of most Milfords and their extension to/from Cardiff with the displaced DMUs assisting the Valleys.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Mar 2026 ==

As always, there are differences of experience. But I would argue that 500 men jumping up and down and shouting football chants at the top of their voices definitely counts as anti-social behaviour!

Ah football! Wrong shaped balls. (Sportswise.)

 

[Dai Corner]

If a passenger looks at a train timetable, and sees a train at a time that's conveninent for them, that's the train they'll want to get! So it's only common sense that those popular trains should have more carriages. In the case of an event, these are the services immediately before and after the event. Although in my experience, there always seems to be more overcrowding caused by people leaving the event.

TfW and GWR do usually run extra/longer trains for Cardiff events but there are physical limits on how long a train can be and how frequently they can run. Passengers who've looked at the timetable will hopefully have read about likely overcrowding due to events and can make an informed choice whether to travel in crowded trains or change their plans.

It's not just the railways; try getting a hotel room, a drink, a meal, a parking space or driving anywhere on the main roads on an event day.

 

[35B]

But is it not too much to ask to expect a comfortable train journey, free of anti-social behaviour? Especially given the generally high prices of train journeys in the UK. In terms of the law, anti-social behaviour is just as illegal as fare evasion!

Define anti social. I have vivid memories of the mistake of travelling up Airedale on the day of a Headingly Test.

It was noisy, very uncomfortable to this sheltered southerner, but entirely good natured.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Ah football! Wrong shaped balls. (Sportswise.)

I've played that sport earlier in life; and I've spectated / watched on pub TV, for four decades.
I never saw thuggish or obnoxious crowd behaviour, period.
Lively and loud (me also, especially "that" 2003 final...) - of course.
But - antisocial and offensive? Never saw that with fans of the correct-shaped ball.

But is it not too much to ask to expect a comfortable train journey, free of anti-social behaviour?

See post 17.

 

[Topological]

Without wishing to dwell on the obvious, but surely each passenger pays the same for a train ticket between the same two places. Therefore a big crowd of event attendees have probably paid a lot more than the smaller number of non attendees using the service. Why should that crowd be made to suffer so that the trains do not get busy? Why is the event attendee treated any differently to any other passenger?

Yes, it would be good if they could put more trains on. But given capacity each fare-paying passenger has equal right to be there.

Two weeks ago, I caught a Mk4 set that was put into use on a Holyhead after the Wales game. Wales had lost and there were a lot of sad rugby types on. As an Englishman, I felt bad for the kids making their way back to North Wales. Ample ale being consumed, but all fine. TfW had done a great job, putting the unit that would have been on Holyhead and then put that on the Manchester (Crewe because of the Ardwick Blockade) and all worked brilliantly.

It is not hard to know when there is something on at the Millenium Stadium, and none of the other Cardiff events attract notable crowds anymore (Even the Welsh football team is only given Cardiff City Stadium these days).

 

[The exile]

The passengers who insist on boarding overcrowded trains instead of waiting for later ones?

At Cardiff Central they are made to queue outside after major events and let in a trainload at a time when a train to their destination is ready. This doesn't work for arrivals before the event, of course.

Are those maybe the passengers for whom that is the last train that we ll enable them to catch the onward bus to their final destination / whose babysitter is going home in an hour etc?

 

[Dai Corner]

Are those maybe the passengers for whom that is the last train that we ll enable them to catch the onward bus to their final destination / whose babysitter is going home in an hour etc?

They'll have to make their informed choice

TfW and GWR do usually run extra/longer trains for Cardiff events but there are physical limits on how long a train can be and how frequently they can run. Passengers who've looked at the timetable will hopefully have read about likely overcrowding due to events and can make an informed choice whether to travel in crowded trains or change their plans.

It's not just the railways; try getting a hotel room, a drink, a meal, a parking space or driving anywhere on the main roads on an event day.

 

[Krokodil]

I think that this is one of the aims of the great western electrification.

387s can be pressed into service to Cardiff now, which is some progress. Shame that they can't go to Bristol.