2024 Tube Stock (Siemens Inspiro London)

[PizzaKing52]

Bakerloo line: TfL edges closer to replacing oldest trains on London Underground

The trains date to 1972 but may not be replaced for another decade

www.standard.co.uk

I’m fed up of seeing this as in some articles, they mention that the old Bakerloo Line trains are finally nearing the end of passenger service, yet in other news reports, it keeps going on about how the 1972 Stock is likely to run until it hit’s a person’s retirement age. This is my opinion coming from someone who highly despises of this rolling stock and am more concerned than happy about how long these old trains will end up lasting for.

I’m also really worried that the new Piccadilly Line trains might be delayed even further than 2026, as this has been the case for a lot of other rolling stocks in the past like the Class 710, B23 Stock which had to be temporarily pulled out of service etc, the list is endless…

 

[GFE]

I suspect more will become clear when the (current) Tfl plan/strategy for BLU is publicised at the "market engagement" session in March.
Ie what stage in the Infrastructure works program the new trains will be required/introduced - strong betting is during an extended closure when a large volume of the infrastructure sitework will also be done ie during the Infrastructure works timespan referenced in the article.

Bakerloo Line Upgrade Stage 1 Infrastructure Works - Find a Tender

www.find-tender.service.gov.uk

 

[Snow1964]

I suspect more will become clear when the (current) Tfl plan/strategy for BLU is publicised at the "market engagement" session in March.
Ie what stage in the Infrastructure works program the new trains will be required/introduced - strong betting is during an extended closure when a large volume of the infrastructure sitework will also be done ie during the Intrastructure works timespan referenced in the article.

Might also get a decent update next Wednesday evening (25th) when the papers for TfL Board programmes and Investment committee meeting on 5th March are published

Meetings - Programmes and Investment Committee - Modern Council

board.tfl.gov.uk

 

[Benjwri]

Might also get a decent update next Wednesday evening (25th) when the papers for TfL Board programmes and Investment committee meeting on 5th March are published

Meetings - Programmes and Investment Committee - Modern Council

board.tfl.gov.uk

Not too much of an update in the papers, Investment Programme Report holds the completion date at Q3 2033/34 and states:

The forecast completion date relates to all of the new trains being in passenger service and increased timetable frequency of up to 24 trains per hour.

It also states:

The planned completion date in the table above is a provisional date based on initial forecasts while the programme team is developing the overall schedule and associated completion dates over the coming months.

 

[Snow1964]

Not too much of an update in the papers, Investment Programme Report holds the completion date at Q3 2033/34 and states:

It also states:

The full update is agenda item 8 (and non public agenda item 21j

However like the trains, the Board papers for Piccadilly line stock are running late and have not yet been published. Try the link over next few days and look for an attachment added to agenda item 8 for more info

Agenda for Programmes and Investment Committee on Thursday 5 March 2026, 10:00 - Modern Council

board.tfl.gov.uk

 

[GFE]

The full update is agenda item 8 (and non public agenda item 21j

However like the trains, the Board papers for Piccadilly line stock are running late and have not yet been published. Try the link over next few days and look for an attachment added to agenda item 8 for more info

Agenda for Programmes and Investment Committee on Thursday 5 March 2026, 10:00 - Modern Council

board.tfl.gov.uk

I believe the previous couple of posts are about Bakerloo line upgrade ( not the Picc)

 

[Dstock7080]

New Piccadilly line trains delayed for second time https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwyxl44g8e0o

The rollout of new Piccadilly line trains has been delayed for a second time, due to the "complexities" of the work and safety concerns, Transport for London (TfL) has said.
The first trains had originally been expected to enter service in late 2025, but this was delayed to the second half of 2026. Now the trains have been delayed again and can be expected at some point between December 2026 and June 2027.

 

[Recessio]

BBC's Transport Correspondent Tom Edwards has tweeted:

New aircon Piccadilly Line trains delayed by 6 months. Problems with space for a/c units and software. Now aiming for Dec-June 27. Picc is one of London’s busiest tube lines.

Source: https://x.com/BBCTomEdwards/status/2027279157160235122

Would be interested to know what is meant by "problems with space for a/c units"

 

[Silent]

New Piccadilly line trains delayed for second time https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwyxl44g8e0o

I guess it’s better to introduce a train that works well but is delayed rather than a repeat of the 92 stock where the train falls apart and needs to be heavily modified and repaired during its life.

 

[Thirteen]

TBH given the DLR issues, I think it's better to delay the 2024 stock if it has software issues than roll it out then having to withdraw.

Wasn't the original rollout plan November 2025? If it rolls out in December 2026 or January 2027 then it's only 13-14 months late.

 

[Dstock7080]

38064-48064 delivered to Goole this morning, direct from Austria

 

[Snow1964]

The TfL Board paper for next week's committee meeting has now been published

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/b3723/Supplementary%20Agenda%20Thursday%2005-Mar-2026%2010.00%20Programmes%20and%20Investment%20Committee.pdf?T=9

Part 1.2 mentions timescales and and and proposed deed of variation with Siemens (details excempt)

Part 2.1 (a) seems to require extra £409m for the project

Part 5.3 revised window for first train in service, slipped to Dec26- June27

Part 6.4 delays going to cost £47m

Lots of little snippets of updates through the papers (but the real juicy details are not listed, but instead in part 2 (non public) papers

 

[Silent]

Does anyone know much about the train accordion connectors (what is the proper name). I have just observed that on the s stock they seem to look much different to the 24ts on the exterior. Why? 24ts' one looks softer and doesn't seem to have a middle connector. I am suspecting that maybe the accordion connector on the 24ts was engineered to be thinner so the train still benefits from open ended gangways despite being relatively small? The S stocks one looks similar, but not as long, as the ones on bendy buses.

 

[CarrotPie]

the train accordion connectors (what is the proper name)

Gangways!

 

[announcements]

Inter-car gangways!

 

[FrontSideBus]

I'd love to know what problems require four hundred million pounds extra to rectify!

 

[Aaron_TTL]

I'd love to know what problems require four hundred million pounds extra to rectify!

How poorly written are these contracts that the TFL are on the line for this bill? If the issue is with the trains then surely Siemens have to absorb it and deliver what was promised.

 

[Recessio]

How poorly written are these contracts that the TFL are on the line for this bill? If the issue is with the trains then surely Siemens have to absorb it and deliver what was promised.

Depends on the cause of the problem, I would guess: if Seimens haven't met the spec, that would surely be on them - but if the trains delivered meet the spec and the spec turned out to be incorrect or have oversights, then that's on TfL. (this is why I'm curious by what BBC's Tom Edwards meant about "problems with space for a/c units" - who has messed up, TfL or Siemens or the A/C manufacturer, and how have they messed up? )

This is why it's unfortunate that TfL keep shtum about anything and everything to do with new trains and the recent refurbishment programs...

 

[Snow1964]

Depends on the cause of the problem, I would guess: if Seimens haven't met the spec, that would surely be on them - but if the trains delivered meet the spec and the spec turned out to be incorrect or have oversights, then that's on TfL. (this is why I'm curious by what BBC's Tom Edwards meant about "problems with space for a/c units" - who has messed up, TfL or Siemens or the A/C manufacturer, and how have they messed up? )

This is why it's unfortunate that TfL keep shtum about anything and everything to do with new trains and the recent refurbishment programs...

Reading the updated agenda 8 in the papers for this weeks meeting, the very fact that TfL are preparing to sign a deed of variation, need £400m more, and per 2.1 (c) will have timescales beyond current draft business plan (which other Board papers says goes upto 2029/30) suggests that TfL are paying to either delay, and/or alter the trains.

They might use formal language in the Board papers, but reading between the lines, clearly needs extra time, and something needs changing on the trains. And assuming they are not going to add £4m of changes per train, must be big monetary chunk going to further infrastructure changes.

I am also intrigued by new date range of Dec - June 2027 for first train in service. A rather vague estimate of 9-16 months time suggests haven't yet got a clue how long things might take. And if that is best estimate for an official Board level revised target date, then vagueness of date sounds like stab in the dark.

 

[Thirteen]

One has to wonder if they try and extend the option on the Bakerloo Line trains as part of the deed of variation.

 

[Mikey C]

Reading the updated agenda 8 in the papers for this weeks meeting, the very fact that TfL are preparing to sign a deed of variation, need £400m more, and per 2.1 (c) will have timescales beyond current draft business plan (which other Board papers says goes upto 2029/30) suggests that TfL are paying to either delay, and/or alter the trains.

They might use formal language in the Board papers, but reading between the lines, clearly needs extra time, and something needs changing on the trains. And assuming they are not going to add £4m of changes per train, must be big monetary chunk going to further infrastructure changes.

I am also intrigued by new date range of Dec - June 2027 for first train in service. A rather vague estimate of 9-16 months time suggests haven't yet got a clue how long things might take. And if that is best estimate for an official Board level revised target date, then vagueness of date sounds like stab in the dark.

Yes, the length and vagueness of the delay is quite worrying.

 

[thomalex]

I’m sorry did I just read they need nearly half a billion pounds additional funding. Did I really that correctly.

Half a billion pounds

Surely I must be wrong?

 

[CarrotPie]

I’m sorry did I just read they need nearly half a billion pounds additional funding. Did I really that correctly.

Half a billion pounds

Surely I must be wrong?

And that's on top of the £3 billion pounds already (of which £1.5 billion is for the trains themselves).

Oh, and another year or so's delay. So it'll be more than 2 years from first delivery to entry into service. I remember when you used to be able to get the first train in service within a few years of signing the contract, not eight (but might be more like nine, depending on the lottery numbers next week)

Apparently Tube Lines planned to introduce 93 new trains to fully replace the 1973 by...2014. Oh well, only 14 years late...

 

[Snow1964]

I’m sorry did I just read they need nearly half a billion pounds additional funding. Did I really that correctly.

Half a billion pounds

Surely I must be wrong?

Yes per section 6.1
In May 2018 was £3,294,000,000
In 2001 cut to 2,994,000,000

Per section 6.4, going up to £3,450,000,000

 

[A60stock]

How does do these delays compare with when the S8 Stock was new, when these were first delivered?

 

[daveid]

In fact they've been delayed three or four times. The original ETA was 2024. If they say Dec - June 2027 then it'll be very end of that time, but of course it'll get nudged further on before that time.

 

[A60stock]

The 1973 stock soldiers on longer!

 

[Snow1964]

In fact they've been delayed three or four times. The original ETA was 2024. If they say Dec - June 2027 then it'll be very end of that time, but of course it'll get nudged further on before that time.

That date range is for the first train.

Originally last train would have entered service in 2027 and the 1973 was supposed to have gone, instead looking like Spring 2027 will be 100% old stock in service, rather than 100% new trains.

 

[Dstock7080]

How does do these delays compare with when the S8 Stock was new, when these were first delivered?

First delivery as 7-car 21/10/2009.
first S8 entered service 31/7/2010

 

[bluegoblin7]

The S stock rollout was arguably quicker, but many forget that all the S8s had to go back to Derby twice for modifications, leading to up to three S7+1s being in service (with a protracted roll out for the S7s too). Some of that was down to signalling upgrades changing scope, but not all.

That said, the introduction was generally pretty smooth across the SSR, and didn’t have the big delays that the 24TS are now having.