2024 Tube Stock (Siemens Inspiro London)

[Mikey C]

The signalling upgrades to enable 36tph are way off though. Indeed replacing the ancient 1972s must surely be more of a priority, and one where the electoral benefits for a national government, the trains rolling off the Goole production line, are more obvious too.

 

[Nym]

It’s confusing to replace Ealing Broadway branch with Piccadilly lines because what would happen with Chiswick Park then?

New station on the branch down to Richmond to replace the existing.

It would also include full segregation up at Rayners Lane in the same plan so that the signalling wouldn't need to talk to each other, making ITMPs (Incompatible Train Movement Plans) even more complicated.

 

[Benjwri]

The signalling upgrades to enable 36tph are way off though. Indeed replacing the ancient 1972s must surely be more of a priority, and one where the electoral benefits for a national government, the trains rolling off the Goole production line, are more obvious too.

I wonder if the Picc upgrades and train are taking priority because they’re hoping Heathrow might be forced to make a significant contribution as part of the planning for the new runway? The plan is certainly worded in that way.

 

[Mikey C]

I wonder if the Picc upgrades and train are taking priority because they’re hoping Heathrow might be forced to make a significant contribution as part of the planning for the new runway? The plan is certainly worded in that way.

The Heathrow 3rd runway (if it ever happens) will take ages to build, a timescale way longer than the 1972 stock will surely last...

 

[Benjwri]

The Heathrow 3rd runway (if it ever happens) will take ages to build, a timescale way longer than the 1972 stock will surely last...

Absolutely but it’s quite likely TfL will be seeking funding from Heathrow as part of the planning process, which is happening now.

 

[Thirteen]

The 1972 stock are on their last legs and if they're not replaced in the 2030s at the latest then it puts the Bakerloo Line in jeopardy.

 

[announcements]

I'm not surprised, given the bends and platform curves they have to grind against all day long. Can't do them any good. Don't forget, the 1967 stock was absolutely knackered running up and down the Victoria line by the time it came to 2009.

 

[D365]

if Heathrow is, as speculated above, funding additional 24TS trains. Could it be possible that the additional trains will be operated on the Bakerloo until Piccadilly frequencies are increased?

At which point there would be a better chance of understanding whether or not the Bakerloo line extension to Lewisham will be constructed in full, and the associated rolling stock requirements.

 

[AM9]

if Heathrow is, as speculated above, funding additional 24TS trains. Could it be possible that the additional trains will be operated on the Bakerloo until Piccadilly frequencies are increased?

At which point there would be a better chance of understanding whether or not the Bakerloo line extension to Lewisham will be constructed in full, and the associated rolling stock requirements.

Probably not before the line's operation was suffering systemic breakdowns that trashed the service and significantly raised the political temperature in London.

 

[Trainbike46]

At which point there would be a better chance of understanding whether or not the Bakerloo line extension to Lewisham will be constructed in full, and the associated rolling stock requirements.

I don't think any order for new Bakerloo stock should wait for that. They could order the stock they need for the line as is, and agree an option for the number of trains that would be needed for the extension. If the decision is then made to build the extension, the option could then be exercised.

 

[D365]

Probably not before the line's operation was suffering systemic breakdowns that trashed the service and significantly raised the political temperature in London.

I don't think any order for new Bakerloo stock should wait for that. They could order the stock they need for the line as is, and agree an option for the number of trains that would be needed for the extension. If the decision is then made to build the extension, the option could then be exercised.

My question is whether additional 24TS trains could back-fill on the Bakerloo until additional units are needed on the Piccadilly. As my impression was that, without external funding, TfL is unable to order any further new stock beyond the current 24TS order.

 

[Benjwri]

My question is whether additional 24TS trains could back-fill on the Bakerloo until additional units are needed on the Piccadilly. As my impression was that, without external funding, TfL is unable to order any further new stock beyond the current 24TS order.

The answer to the very base problem is it would depends on who paid for them and what the conditions of that money was. No one can answer that because as of now that money doesn’t exist.

However regardless there would be plenty of other variables such as gauge clearance, crew training, compatibility, which no one here is going to be able to answer.

 

[trebor79]

Does the withdrawal of the 1973 stock provide a source of spare parts for the 1972 stock to keep that going?

 

[Dstock7080]

Few if any parts would be compatible after each Stocks refurbishment

 

[xtmw]

Does the withdrawal of the 1973 stock provide a source of spare parts for the 1972 stock to keep that going?

There were articles in the press saying trains would be cannibalised (bit dramatic?) to support the 72 stock but as Dstock7080 above notes, not many parts are compatible with the 73 stock

 

[Nym]

Does the withdrawal of the 1973 stock provide a source of spare parts for the 1972 stock to keep that going?

Yes, but really not many.

Anything that it would, would already be float overhaul parts that pass through Railway Engineering Workshops (REW) Acton following the re-integration of AP-JNP (Formally TubeLines) into London Underground Asset Protection Services, even then, some parts are on legacy overhaul contracts to Alstom such as traction packages etc, but they're not common to 1972TS anyway.

Given that even though they're only a year apart, there's a lot of differences between 1972 and 1973 tube stock, and they're even more pronounced after refurbishments.

For example, 1973TS was fully rewired (near enough) in LUL/RSE/024 cable, where 1972TS was only selectively re-wired. 73TS made off new relay cabinets in the standback areas predominantly using Siemens 3TH4 relays the same as 1992TS, near the doors and under-seats where 72TS retained the M Type relays and replaced in position with an in house design using Siemens 3RH1 relays on adaptor plates.
There was a completely diverging set of desires when refurbishing, the 1973TS seemed to go deeper, which is why it's surprising that AP-JNP were running around screaming "needs re-wire" when 1972TS is on the original RME216 and RME50 Butyl Rubber insulated cables in some positions, which are now very 'crispy' even 10 years ago.

The kind of spares that could help electrically at least would be things like Motor-Alternator control frames, even then, it's a big strip back to make one compatible with the other, but the heavy steelwork is usable, the motor alternator itself is not interchangeable, neither is the static converter, traction motors, anything big really.

 

[Silent]

So the Siemens 3TH4 relays can be used for 1992 tube stock???


They say 1992 tube stock has a washing machine sound, is this the nature of having a dc motor in the era it was built. I say that because 1972 ts also has a high pitched tone above the main tone that I think can sound like a washing machine?

 

[Snow1964]

I wonder if the Picc upgrades and train are taking priority because they’re hoping Heathrow might be forced to make a significant contribution as part of the planning for the new runway? The plan is certainly worded in that way.

I think the timescales will mismatch. If Heathrow does have to make a contribution, probably will be ahead of any runway opening (so around 2032-2034), whereas TfL would like further Piccadilly upgrade nearer 2029-31

I would have thought Heathrow would be more interested in funding a western rail link towards Slough or Staines area than paying for signal replacement on a tube line in central London, if it did put funding in.

I have now read more of the draft Business plan, and there is a section plan page 6 (pack page 92) called looking further ahead (after 2029-30) and it includes Replace Bakerloo line fleet. That rather suggests not intending to just follow on with similar design when Piccadilly train production ends, but will have gap of year or two.

Of course there is a risk, whilst no order is placed, that Siemens Goole gets order for someone else (Northern, Scotrail, GWR etc) and any follow on tube order is at back of queue for production slots.

 

[D365]

So the Siemens 3TH4 relays can be used for 1992 tube stock???

Unless relays / relay cabinets can be quickly disconnected and removed, you’d spend more time salvaging and storing spare relays than they are economically worth.

Unless, of course, the lead time for brand new relays is spectacularly long (months or years).

They say 1992 tube stock has a washing machine sound, is this the nature of having a dc motor in the era it was built. I say that because 1972 ts also has a high pitched tone above the main tone that I think can sound like a washing machine?

When comparing one motor against another - if they have a similar power output, the motors themselves won’t ever sound spectacularly different. Even when considering DC vs AC.

The difference in higher pitch sounds when comparing trains comes from the method which is used to control voltage (DC) or frequency (AC).

 

[Nym]

So the Siemens 3TH4 relays can be used for 1992 tube stock???


They say 1992 tube stock has a washing machine sound, is this the nature of having a dc motor in the era it was built. I say that because 1972 ts also has a high pitched tone above the main tone that I think can sound like a washing machine?

Given they've been on 73TS for pretty much the time that one should now be considering replacing them, and 1992TS is "Replace on failure".

Not... really... no.

And to add to D365's comment, they're really not on a long lead time for the majority of 3TH4, and you can exchange parts on them as the coils normally don't go, usually the contacts.

 

[Thirteen]

I think the timescales will mismatch. If Heathrow does have to make a contribution, probably will be ahead of any runway opening (so around 2032-2034), whereas TfL would like further Piccadilly upgrade nearer 2029-31

I would have thought Heathrow would be more interested in funding a western rail link towards Slough or Staines area than paying for signal replacement on a tube line in central London, if it did put funding in.

I have now read more of the draft Business plan, and there is a section plan page 6 (pack page 92) called looking further ahead (after 2029-30) and it includes Replace Bakerloo line fleet. That rather suggests not intending to just follow on with similar design when Piccadilly train production ends, but will have gap of year or two.

Of course there is a risk, whilst no order is placed, that Siemens Goole gets order for someone else (Northern, Scotrail, GWR etc) and any follow on tube order is at back of queue for production slots.

I think if Bakerloo Line trains are ordered by November then it'll probably be service in 2030 but probably from TfL's POV, not the 2029/30 period.

 

[andybarsblade]

I do wonder if they're going to leave the Dellner-12 autocoupler on the front of it or change it out like they did with 2009TS...

Its fitted with a Dellner type 330

 

[Nym]

Its fitted with a Dellner type 330

Stand corrected

Not that models matter any more with the new owners. Won’t be able to find any info on them or buy them with less than a year lead time

 

[absolutelymilk]

Do new tube trains have to complete a similar amount of fault-free miles to mainline trains or does acceptance work on a different system?

 

[Nym]

How non-standard is it? Would it be at all possible (note: "possible", not "practical" or "worth it") to modify some of the other 73TS carriages to fit in the Bakerloo tunnels?

"Anything is possible."

 

[Snow1964]

How non-standard is it? Would it be at all possible (note: "possible", not "practical" or "worth it") to modify some of the other 73TS carriages to fit in the Bakerloo tunnels?

The Bakerloo is one of the oldest, and the original section, Baker Street to Waterloo has some fairly sharp curves because it followed the road layout to avoid paying wayleaves to pass under buildings. Unlike later lines which were built with tunnels 4-6inch bigger diameter on curves there isn't a lot of extra space to overhang on curves.

Back in the 1930s some of the tightest bits of the tube network were eased. Literally unbolted a tunnel section, shaved the clay behind it, and upto about two thirds of the tunnel ring was moved back with a small extra spacer section inserted (some just had rings replaced with new ones with shallower ribs, would then do next ring, took many nights/weeks but the short tight section was physically eased. I don't think health and safety would allow same manual method nowadays.

What I don't know is if some tunnel rings need modification on Bakerloo to allow a clone of Piccadilly stock to operate, because of its different configuration of 5 single cars and 4 bridging sections (rather than 7 shorter than 73 stock cars).

However the TfL draft business plan published last week did seem to have capital expenditure towards Bakerloo new modernisation (Doesn't say if budget is for train production, or depot modifications, or infrastructure modifications). see page 17 (pack page 103). 2027-28 plan £156m, 2028-29 plan £348m, 2029-30 plan £456m

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/board-20260204-agenda-papers-public.pdf

 

[GFE]

The inference from above is that the Bakerloo tunnels may be tighter than the Picc. Bearing in mind the gauge issues and infrastructure works to make the 24 stock fit on the picc. I really hope the surveying and computer gauging model is now developed enough that the BLU team can use it to assess whether a modified version of the train is required or it is better to modify the infrastructure. IIRC shorter end cars had already been mentioned.

 

[Snow1964]

The inference from above is that the Bakerloo tunnels may be tighter than the Picc. Bearing in mind the gauge issues and infrastructure works to make the 24 stock fit on the picc. I really hope the surveying and computer gauging model is now developed enough that the BLU team can use it to assess whether a modified version of the train is required or it is better to modify the infrastructure. IIRC shorter end cars had already been mentioned.

To some extent the throw on corners at car ends, and the overhang on inside at car centres depends on bogie pivot spacing. Some tunnel easing work was done in 1970s on Piccadilly line ahead of 1973 stock

To put it into perspective
1938 stock cars were 15.6-15.9m long
1959 stock cars were 15.3-15.6m long
1973 stock cars are 17.5-17.7m long (but taper in at ends)

1972 stock cars on Bakerloo are 16.0m long

The new 2024 stock lengths are : driving motor end cars 15.637m, motor cars 3&7 10.268m, key motor car 5 13.938m, intermediate cars 2,4,6,8 are 9.978m

So individual cars are not longer than existing Bakerloo, but possibly end throw is more if bogies are further in, or intermediate bridging sections will be close to inside wall at centres.

Infrastructure modifications could also relate to depot or siding length
1972 stock 113.5m long
1973 stock 106.8m long
2024 stock 113.0m long

The new trains should be faster to board as doors are 1690mm wide (1370mm on 73 stock)

They axle weight is higher on new stock
2024 stock, Tare 155.4t, crush loaded estimate 259.7t on 10 bogies
1973 stock, Tare 156.9t, crush loaded estimate 233.9t on 12 bogies

Data copied from a FOI request

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

 

[absolutelymilk]

Are there any more milestones to look out for in testing that are coming up?

 

[Alxxxs]

Bakerloo line: TfL edges closer to replacing oldest trains on London Underground

The trains date to 1972 but may not be replaced for another decade

www.standard.co.uk