ECML disruption - broken down train near York (21/02)

[Segedunum]

Wonder if its moved in time for 1V62 Edi to Exter to go the normal route as i assume its about to divert via Leeds.

If it was diverting it'd go via Pontefract Baghill non-stop to Sheffield. The usual route to Leeds is blocked for engineering works.

 

[FuzzyDuck]

It's made it to York P10 under its own power. Can see passengers getting off.

 

[Lifelong]

4 hours later fault fixed and into York…

 

[Failed Unit]

What was the fault? (Or did they never say)

It is concerning that these things take so long to fix. I am sure that control do their best, but 4 hours does seem a little excessive.

 

[Lifelong]

What was the fault? (Or did they never say)

It is concerning that these things take so long to fix. I am sure that control do their best, but 4 hours does seem a little excessive.

It was a wheel axle (the thunderbird scenario seems irrelevant IIRC). About an hour in, we went about 100 yards and stopped as not ok to carry on. Various fitters came on, so did BTP (I think there were shenanigans down the train). Anyway and then we started moving (having been told 30 minutes before that we were immovable). Not a good day for those on the train…

 

[Failed Unit]

When you look at where you were, it was going to take at least 1 hour to get a Loco from Newark. Not sure if getting a 2nd Azuma to rescue is a possibility or not (clearly not you have an axle issue). However if they know they are not move the train, I would be interested to know how long it takes to evacuate the train. I am sure people are easy, but all the other stuff they bring with them not so easy.

 

[Peterthegreat]

And now 1A27 (15.37 ex Bradford Forster Sq) appears to be in trouble at Shipley.....

 

[FuzzyDuck]

And now 1A27 (15.37 ex Bradford Forster Sq) appears to be in trouble at Shipley.....

Seems to moving OK, albeit a few minutes late.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Seems to moving OK, albeit a few minutes late.

Yes.
Stood for about 12 minutes fouling a few junctions!

 

[TheSmiths82]

Does anybody know what unit this was? I can't work it out from the info on Realtime trains and for some reason it is not showing the actual train that was used. Edit sorry I have just seen that is was 801203. I just wondered as I was on 101 yesterday.

 

[Retorus]

What a farce the handling of this was.

 

[43094]

1S12 was cancelled as the unit may have at one stage been needed for an evacuation (which in the end wasn't required).

Without being able to say too much, the delay was mainly due to assessing if the unit could be enabled to move forward safely. If it could (which in the end, was the case), that was preferable to an evacuation.

As the incident progressed, it became apparent that the T'bird wasn't going to be able to assist - but that wasn't immediately obvious, so scrambling it from Newark did enable all options to be kept open as long as possible.

 

[ficedula]

Yeah. As somebody who was stuck on this train (and therefore had about half of my planned day in York evaporate...) it felt like:

-At basically all times, it felt like the passengers were very much not kept informed, which I feel reasonably sure was because the LNER staff on the train also weren't kept informed. At one point, the T'bird had been sat ahead of our train in a siding for about an hour, so it felt like somebody probably knew at that point "it might not be safe to move the unit, so the t'bird will be of no use in that case; keep it on standby but don't proceed with actually backing it up to the train to tow it". But the staff on the train (in our coach at least!) were - I think honestly - telling us "we're waiting for the T'bird to come and push and/or tow us". So the passengers around me were - not unreasonably! - assuming "in the not too distant future, we're going to be towed; the staff told us it was dispatched from Newark, like, an hour ago, it must be nearly here, nobody's saying the tow option won't work." Those few of us who were on Traksy were already thinking "it looks like there's at least a fair amount of doubt that will happen!", but that wasn't what the staff in the train were saying.

-Similarly, the evacuation was announced, the staff on the train were telling us "the evacuation unit is on its way, get your belongings together to prepare to transfer to a rescue train it'll be here fairly soon", when again it was clear on Traksy "there's a unit that may have been dispatched from York for an evacuation - but they've held it for now, so either that's not our evacuation unit, or somebody's already thinking the evacuation may not be necessary, either way we're not gonna be evacuating the train soon!". The staff on the train presumably didn't know that plan had changed until after we'd already set off on our way to York at reduced speed though! Again, it feels like the nebulous "railway" already knew the plan had changed, but they didn't bother to tell anyone on the actual train what was going on.

And yeah, if, after the rescue unit was dispatched, the fitter on site said "whoa, hang on, I reckon I actually can get this moving at reduced speed, which is still going to be quicker than an evacuation, hold the evacuation for now" it was absolutely the right decision to cancel the evacuation. But the communication about that was basically non-existant - and at no point did anybody explain "why didn't we evacuate you two hours ago". The answer might well be "nobody on the ground has a clue, and the people who do have a clue off-site aren't going to spend the time communicating that decision because they're busy dealing with the massive problem", but the end result is that the passengers feel like they're being ignored.

Obviously in terms of "why does it matter", it's not like telling passengers what's going on actually resolves things any quicker ... but it would certainly help keep people calmer. The BTP actually did end up attending and having (what I assume were) stern words with somebody in my coach who was being fairly rude towards the staff...

 

[Aaron_TTL]

Curious, how did the BTP and the fitters reach the train?

 

[JordR]

Curious, how did the BTP and the fitters reach the train?

Presumably walked from an access point?

 

[800001]

Yeah. As somebody who was stuck on this train (and therefore had about half of my planned day in York evaporate...) it felt like:

-At basically all times, it felt like the passengers were very much not kept informed, which I feel reasonably sure was because the LNER staff on the train also weren't kept informed. At one point, the T'bird had been sat ahead of our train in a siding for about an hour, so it felt like somebody probably knew at that point "it might not be safe to move the unit, so the t'bird will be of no use in that case; keep it on standby but don't proceed with actually backing it up to the train to tow it". But the staff on the train (in our coach at least!) were - I think honestly - telling us "we're waiting for the T'bird to come and push and/or tow us". So the passengers around me were - not unreasonably! - assuming "in the not too distant future, we're going to be towed; the staff told us it was dispatched from Newark, like, an hour ago, it must be nearly here, nobody's saying the tow option won't work." Those few of us who were on Traksy were already thinking "it looks like there's at least a fair amount of doubt that will happen!", but that wasn't what the staff in the train were saying.

-Similarly, the evacuation was announced, the staff on the train were telling us "the evacuation unit is on its way, get your belongings together to prepare to transfer to a rescue train it'll be here fairly soon", when again it was clear on Traksy "there's a unit that may have been dispatched from York for an evacuation - but they've held it for now, so either that's not our evacuation unit, or somebody's already thinking the evacuation may not be necessary, either way we're not gonna be evacuating the train soon!". The staff on the train presumably didn't know that plan had changed until after we'd already set off on our way to York at reduced speed though! Again, it feels like the nebulous "railway" already knew the plan had changed, but they didn't bother to tell anyone on the actual train what was going on.

And yeah, if, after the rescue unit was dispatched, the fitter on site said "whoa, hang on, I reckon I actually can get this moving at reduced speed, which is still going to be quicker than an evacuation, hold the evacuation for now" it was absolutely the right decision to cancel the evacuation. But the communication about that was basically non-existant - and at no point did anybody explain "why didn't we evacuate you two hours ago". The answer might well be "nobody on the ground has a clue, and the people who do have a clue off-site aren't going to spend the time communicating that decision because they're busy dealing with the massive problem", but the end result is that the passengers feel like they're being ignored.

Obviously in terms of "why does it matter", it's not like telling passengers what's going on actually resolves things any quicker ... but it would certainly help keep people calmer. The BTP actually did end up attending and having (what I assume were) stern words with somebody in my coach who was being fairly rude towards the staff...

Bearing in mind the driver would know the train was going to move forwards to York, they should have communicated to the Train Manager!

Not doing so is poor on the drivers part (if they didn't communicate), and as driver is in contact with control and Hitachi as a train manger I'd be in front cab with the driver getting all the latest info.

Also when a train is stranded such as this the control team have a 'Stranded Train Champion' who remains in contact with the stranded train, communication plans, checking conditions on train.

 

[Lifelong]

Yeah. As somebody who was stuck on this train (and therefore had about half of my planned day in York evaporate...) it felt like:

-At basically all times, it felt like the passengers were very much not kept informed, which I feel reasonably sure was because the LNER staff on the train also weren't kept informed. At one point, the T'bird had been sat ahead of our train in a siding for about an hour, so it felt like somebody probably knew at that point "it might not be safe to move the unit, so the t'bird will be of no use in that case; keep it on standby but don't proceed with actually backing it up to the train to tow it". But the staff on the train (in our coach at least!) were - I think honestly - telling us "we're waiting for the T'bird to come and push and/or tow us". So the passengers around me were - not unreasonably! - assuming "in the not too distant future, we're going to be towed; the staff told us it was dispatched from Newark, like, an hour ago, it must be nearly here, nobody's saying the tow option won't work." Those few of us who were on Traksy were already thinking "it looks like there's at least a fair amount of doubt that will happen!", but that wasn't what the staff in the train were saying.

-Similarly, the evacuation was announced, the staff on the train were telling us "the evacuation unit is on its way, get your belongings together to prepare to transfer to a rescue train it'll be here fairly soon", when again it was clear on Traksy "there's a unit that may have been dispatched from York for an evacuation - but they've held it for now, so either that's not our evacuation unit, or somebody's already thinking the evacuation may not be necessary, either way we're not gonna be evacuating the train soon!". The staff on the train presumably didn't know that plan had changed until after we'd already set off on our way to York at reduced speed though! Again, it feels like the nebulous "railway" already knew the plan had changed, but they didn't bother to tell anyone on the actual train what was going on.

And yeah, if, after the rescue unit was dispatched, the fitter on site said "whoa, hang on, I reckon I actually can get this moving at reduced speed, which is still going to be quicker than an evacuation, hold the evacuation for now" it was absolutely the right decision to cancel the evacuation. But the communication about that was basically non-existant - and at no point did anybody explain "why didn't we evacuate you two hours ago". The answer might well be "nobody on the ground has a clue, and the people who do have a clue off-site aren't going to spend the time communicating that decision because they're busy dealing with the massive problem", but the end result is that the passengers feel like they're being ignored.

Obviously in terms of "why does it matter", it's not like telling passengers what's going on actually resolves things any quicker ... but it would certainly help keep people calmer. The BTP actually did end up attending and having (what I assume were) stern words with somebody in my coach who was being fairly rude towards the staff...

As a fellow passenger absolutely everything here is spot on. Remembering this was 4 hours we were talking about. I’d add one further aspect most people just added to the farce - the TM and driver seemingly not being in contact (there were multiple ‘if the driver can hear this message please contact the train manager’ announcements). Put yourself in a passenger’s shoes. You’re in the middle of a field with all the comms issues mentioned in this post, and the train staff don’t appear able to communicate themselves….

 

[800001]

As a fellow passenger absolutely everything here is spot on. Remembering this was 4 hours we were talking about. I’d add one further aspect most people just added to the farce - the TM and driver seemingly not being in contact (there were multiple ‘if the driver can hear this message please contact the train manager’ announcements). Put yourself in a passenger’s shoes. You’re in the middle of a field with all the comms issues mentioned in this post, and the train staff don’t appear able to communicate themselves….

I mean at that time the driver could have been line side or on phone to engineering.

TM could quite simply walk to the front of train to see driver.

TM and driver should work together and be together during an incident like this, but lots of TM are too afraid to leave the comfort of the back cab and like to hide away in disruption.

 

[35B]

I mean at that time the driver could have been line side or on phone to engineering.

TM could quite simply walk to the front of train to see driver.

TM and driver should work together and be together during an incident like this, but lots of TM are too afraid to leave the comfort of the back cab and like to hide away in disruption.

That point works both ways - teamwork requires effort from all members of the team. Having been on badly delayed trains, the difference between good and bad communication is as between night and day. Those delays include one VERY late night where the train I was on was commandeered as the rescue train for a train to train evacuation, and had to reverse bang road to Knebworth having taken on a trainload of stranded passengers.

 

[railrambler]

That point works both ways - teamwork requires effort from all members of the team. Having been on badly delayed trains, the difference between good and bad communication is as between night and day. Those delays include one VERY late night where the train I was on was commandeered as the rescue train for a train to train evacuation, and had to reverse bang road to Knebworth having taken on a trainload of stranded passengers.

Just a thought Lifelong - if your train had been full of bats instead of human beings- the rescue would have been much quicker!

 

[sheff1]

I’d add one further aspect most people just added to the farce - the TM and driver seemingly not being in contact (there were multiple ‘if the driver can hear this message please contact the train manager’ announcements).

Is there no access to the driver's cab from inside on these LNER trains ? On the trains I usually travel on the guard/TM can walk though, open the door and enter the cab.

 

[RiverDon]

On the trains I usually travel on the guard/TM can walk though, open the door and enter the cab.

I don't know about LNER but at my company the driver and the guard would both get sacked for that.

 

[Toby268]

I don't know about LNER but at my company the driver and the guard would both get sacked for that.

It’s different at long distance TOCs generally due to the sometimes long time between stations - however the policies on it can be vague.

 

[800001]

I don't know about LNER but at my company the driver and the guard would both get sacked for that.

If the train is stationary and the driver is dealing with issue, many times Tm will be up front with the driver. At times the TM will assist the driver, so yes Tm is allowed in front cab.

The exception to this is when the driver is actually driving, Tm entering cab is a massive No.

 

[SouthStand]

Yet another shining example on how not to handle a failure. Four hours! After checking the local geography and train location I’m surprised a load didn’t de-camp.

 

[Taunton]

Yet another shining example on how not to handle a failure. Four hours! After checking the local geography and train location I’m surprised a load didn’t de-camp.

It's notable how these extended strandings commonly happen outside the normal working day - this one was on a Saturday. This seems to impact both technical staff, who have been progressively reduced to single shift, and also any senior management who seem needed now to authorise anything not envisaged in the manuals.

 

[Harpo]

and also any senior management who seem needed now to authorise anything not envisaged in the manuals.

Or just not included in training and manuals, such as drivers of a certain push-pull operation not trained on coupling to assist. (Mentioned on here a couple of years ago.)

 

[Starmill]

It’s different at long distance TOCs generally due to the sometimes long time between stations - however the policies on it can be vague.

Not only long distance operators. The common practice for request stops for many years has been for the guard to inform the driver by entering the cab.

 

[CDM Transport]

(the thunderbird scenario seems irrelevant IIRC).

The thunderbird locomotives also were transferring fitters to York from Newark to assist, not completely a wasted effort.

 

[ainsworth74]

The thunderbird locomotives also were transferring fitters to York from Newark to assist, not completely a wasted effort.

Are you sure about that? I'm fairly sure that there aren't any fitters based in Newark and in any event I'm fairly sure the ones for this incident came from Leeds.