Historical Boat trains

[DarloRich]

2140 boat train from Victoria for Newhaven Marine

That must have been the one we got on our school trip.

I checked with my mum and we went to Paris - there was a bit of concern amongst the parents about getting on overnight ferry with young kids but in those days the school just shrugged it off! (Mum said the school stated it was cheaper and the only way they could make the trip work - It was some kind of exchange programme we had French children visit England the following year )

PS does anyone know which ferry company would have sailed that route in the id 80's? Sealink?

 

[WesternLancer]

That must have been the one we got on our school trip.

I checked with my mum and we went to Paris - there was a bit of concern amongst the parents about getting on overnight ferry with young kids but in those days the school just shrugged it off! (Mum said the school stated it was cheaper and the only way they could make the trip work - It was some kind of exchange programme we had French children visit England the following year )

PS does anyone know which ferry company would have sailed that route in the id 80's? Sealink?

Yes, would have been Sealink as BR subsidiary and then afterwards as privatised Sealink in the 1980s. Though I seem to recall the ferries alternated between a BR one and an SNCF one (or SNCF branding on one I think). I don't think anyone else operated that route until around the time after the channel tunnel opened, when I assume the boat trains ceased - unless they ended earlier, and by which time I was no longer living in Sussex so not such a close observer. I'd be pleased to be corrected if I have this wrong.

Although I lived locally at the time, there was one occasion in mid December I had to travel on the route on the night ferry to join family already in Paris, on a journey that originated in the north west so could only get to Newhaven for the night sailing. Pretty sure it was 1987 but maybe 1988. I travelled via Victoria but can't recall if I was on a boat train or made a connection at Lewes. I seem to think I was on a boat train from memory. Mid week, mid December, night boat from Newhaven - there were not many foot passengers and I recall very clearly being questioned in some detail by a UK passport or customs officer why I was going and where. He eventually seemed to be satisfied when noticing my passport stated place of birth was relatively local to Newhaven.

Just found this pic of a 4-Cig in Newhaven Marine in 1987 with an informative caption - part of a sequence of boat train images

Boat Train 1F39 at Newhaven Marine. 1987.

Compared to the Boat Train operations at Dover and Folkestone in Kent the East Sussex port of Newhaven was very much in the minor league in comparison. Despite that both sailings each day from Newhaven to Dieppe in France warranted Boat Train services to and from London. There were two pairs of...

www.flickr.com

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, would have been Sealink as BR subsidiary and then afterwards as privatised Sealink in the 1980s. Though I seem to recall the ferries alternated between a BR one and an SNCF one (or SNCF branding on one I think).

Thanks! useful info

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks! useful info

Actually......

I just found this about one of the ships on the route which in the informative narrative (section lower down the page) indicates things were not as simple as I thought ref UK (BR and after) Sealink's involvement

HHV Ferry

eg this extract, which indicates much more French involvement than I assumed:

Senlac proved to be a successful ship at Newhaven, yet the nature of the route through much of its recent history has been one of instability. Replacing the converted passenger steamer Falaise (which subsequently saw further car ferry service to the Channel Islands) the ship's large freight and passenger capacity soon made her the dominant vessel on the route. Profitability however was hard to come by and with BR taking only 1/3rd of the profits, the economic case for their continued involvement was a matter of some debate by the early 1980s; this was exacerbated by repeated strike action on the French side. Eventually in early 1982 an announcement was made that the route would be left to the French alone and that Senlac would be sold.

The ship was soon sitting strikebound in Newhaven and the action spread to most other Sealink UK ports until, over a month later, the issue was settled. A renegotiated agreement came into force under which the French would move the Chartres from Dover to replace both of the V ships of which one (the Valencay) would be retained as a back-up.

Under this new arrangement, the Senlac continued until Sealink UK's privatisation in June 1984. In October of the same year, the new owners Sea Containers indicated that they too would seek to withdraw from their share of the route and this time the move was carried through: Senlac was sold to SNCF who now assumed total control of the Newhaven-Dieppe service from 1 February 1985. A swift indication of this was the disappearance of the Joint Service flag on the ships' funnels, to be replaced by the standard SNCF logo on a red background. Senlac's port of registry changed from London to Dieppe.

The French now had full control of the route's destiny, but the first season under the new arrangements was not entirely successful and in 1986 SNCF established Dieppe Ferries as a separate entity to steer the crossing back to profitability - or else.

 

[DarloRich]

I just found this about one of the ships on the route which in the informative narrative (section lower down the page) indicates things were not as simple as I thought ref UK (BR and after) Sealink's involvement

thanks - I was just about to post the same thing! I must have travelled around the time all of this was happening.

 

[WesternLancer]

thanks - I was just about to post the same thing! I must have travelled around the time all of this was happening.

Thanks!
As a family Newhaven Dieppe was our route of choice to France from the mid to late 1970s and 80s as it was close to the family home, though we would often be taking the family car so didn't always engage with the rail access. Then in addition to that there would be occasional school trips, though again the proximity meant day time sailings were achievable. So I must have used the route numerous times over the years. Even used it to return from inter rail trip in early 90s as convenient to get home from Newhaven. Then also did at least 2 day trips when Hoverspeed operated fast catamaran on the route (early 2000s?) for a period - which made a summer day trip particularly attractive with low foot passenger prices IIRC. Relatives used the route in summer 2023.

Throughout that 70-80s period (and beyond) I guess ticketing was still dealt with through BR travel centres and high street travel agents, presumably under the Sealink brand, and I guess I just assumed it was 50/50 BR-SNCF shared operation and I'd have been unaware of the finer details outlined in that link.

 

[75A]

Being born and brought up in Bognor it was 50/50 depending on where were going whether it was Newhaven or Portsmouth.
Remember a couple of school trips to the first world war memorials and battle grounds in Belgium & France, great fun.

 

[DarloRich]

We also did the Harwich > Hook of Holland ferry route in the 1980's. My mum says we did it twice, once by train and once by car with caravan. I can remember the car journey but not the train! Any other trips were Dover > Calais with the caravan

for a period - which made a summer day trip particularly attractive with low foot passenger prices IIRC. Relatives used the route in summer 2023.

coincidently we are looking at this route for next year if we take the van to France as it seems to be the cheapest option

 

[WesternLancer]

We also did the Harwich > Hook of Holland ferry route in the 1980's. My mum says we did it twice, once by train and once by car with caravan. I can remember the car journey but not the train! Any other trips were Dover > Calais with the caravan

coincidently we are looking at this route for next year if we take the van to France as it seems to be the cheapest option

It's a good route I think - tho obv longer on the boat.

One of the attractive features is Dieppe itself esp the old harbour side area - tho I do regret the way the ferries now no longer go right into the harbour in the town near all the cafes and restaurants, and the demolition of the 1950s deco style building that you disembarked through and then boarded the French SNCF boat train. That building had a lot of character and was much much nicer than the facilities on the Newhaven side IMHO - that harbourside area always had a feeling of really arriving in France to me as a child. All a marina now with the ferry terminal closer to the sea presumaby for bigger ferries and easier road / truck access.

You may recall that location from your school trip unless it was all dark due to night sailing?

Glimpsed here in 1987

Gare Maritime de Dieppe, July 1987

Gare Maritime de Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, France. July 1987. 86G006_21

www.flickr.com

and clearer view of station

Datei:Gare de Dieppe-Maritime 19940731c.jpg – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

also pleasant is the Normandy countryside inland from Dieppe - I have enjoyed the train journey through that en route to and from Dieppe

 

[Sun Chariot]

We also did the Harwich > Hook of Holland ferry route in the 1980's. My mum says we did it twice, once by train and once by car with caravan. I can remember the car journey but not the train! Any other trips were Dover > Calais with the caravan

coincidently we are looking at this route for next year if we take the van to France as it seems to be the cheapest option

One of my only 2 boat train photos in 1986, was the arrival of an 86-hauled boat train at Harwich, for the Hook of Holland service. I and family were aboard a DFDS boat bound for Denmark; but I was far more interested in the view of the station from the deck!

 

[Ken H]

When I was a kid in the 60's and 70's we went to visit my grandparents in Folkestone.
One of the treats was going along the pier to see the ships. Cote d azure and Maid of Orleans were the ones I remember. The cranes lifted loads of passengers luggage aboard and moved the gangways around. No cars then, just passenger ferries.
But the boat trains would come in and the passengers would go to the boats. The 3rd rail units would go beyond the platforms onto the quay tracks, as the platforms were short.
Trains, Boats, Cranes all gone now.
Another railway place we visited was a level crossing on the harbour branch. It may have been Ryland Place but I am not sure. Crossing keeper would chat - don't think he saw that many trains - even back then!.

Mum had a wartime friend come to stay. She recounted a tale of a car ferry where they craned cars onto the ship. May have been Newhaven. Again probably 1960's. I remember her saying 'Ah dont fancy my car dangling on the end of any crane' in her Barnsley accent.

 

[DarloRich]

You may recall that location from your school trip unless it was all dark due to night sailing?

it was dark - we had a French coach ( maybe a bus!) waiting for us

those pictures are great - very period and a touch romantic

 

[WesternLancer]

those pictures are great - very period and a touch romantic

Yes, all seems very French to me! - and rekindled a few memories esp the sequence of ones from flickr. Looking at street view images it's all gone now sadly, to be replaced by a fancier promenade - although the cafes, bars and hotels along that harbourside stretch look at first glance rather similar

 

[32475]

Yes, all seems very French to me! - and rekindled a few memories esp the sequence of ones from flickr. Looking at street view images it's all gone now sadly, to be replaced by a fancier promenade - although the cafes, bars and hotels along that harbourside stretch look at first glance rather similar

Very similar memories for me too. I went on the Senlac on a school trip when it was brand new I think in 1973. Other ships around then were the Valencay and the Villandry (both French). The harbour area at Dieppe was full of activity, shops and market stalls noise and smells - a pungent cocktail of diesel fumes and fish! I went on the boat train to / from there once or twice and the sight of a passenger train crawling slowly along the quayside was quite an event. Now sadly all gone.

 

[WesternLancer]

Very similar memories for me too. I went on the Senlac on a school trip when it was brand new I think in 1973. Other ships around then were the Valencay and the Villandry (both French). The harbour area at Dieppe was full of activity, shops and market stalls noise and smells - a pungent cocktail of diesel fumes and fish! I went on the boat train to / from there once or twice and the sight of a passenger train crawling slowly along the quayside was quite an event. Now sadly all gone.

Thanks - that description captures it well I must say - just felt so different to me as a child to the Sussex towns / resorts I was familiar with from home. And yet I took it all for granted. And I certainly recall a number of trips on the Senlac over the years.

And of course the French side boat trains were loco hauled, so much more exciting than the CIGs and VEPs I was used to on the UK side!

I think I last would have seen it in 1991 when returning from Interrail trip (arrived in Paris overnight from Vienna on what was the 'real' Orient Express) but pressed on to Dieppe after breakfast, tho on that occasion I am pretty sure it was not an SNCF connecting boat train I chose, to I think a shuttle train from Rouen which probably only went to the Dieppe Town station, so I expect we walked to the ferry terminal on the harbourside. The actual boat train probably came in later.* Then when I next went back after a gap of a few years, it was a Hoverspeed day trip and the railway had all been removed, much to my disappointment.

*I have my Thomas Cook from that trip so could check.

 

[Taunton]

As we are discussing boat trains other than at Victoria, I'll just add that the main usage of Plymouth, and up to Paddington, was arrivals from South America, which were fairly random and never really needed more than one set of the Ocean Saloons the GWR built in the 1930s. These ships commonly operated to London docks, but gave a day's advantage by stopping at Plymouth and going on by train. The sort of more important passenger demand wholly lost to the airlines as soon as they became established. It ended in 1962, and I saw the last couple of years' services. When running the Up train generally followed the Cornish Riviera path, one block behind, headed to the end by a Laira Castle which was always the cleanest loco seen in the week.

 

[WesternLancer]

As we are discussing boat trains other than at Victoria, I'll just add that the main usage of Plymouth, and up to Paddington, was arrivals from South America, which were fairly random and never really needed more than one set of the Ocean Saloons the GWR built in the 1930s. These ships commonly operated to London docks, but gave a day's advantage by stopping at Plymouth and going on by train. The sort of more important passenger demand wholly lost to the airlines as soon as they became established. It ended in 1962, and I saw the last couple of years' services. When running the Up train generally followed the Cornish Riviera path, one block behind, headed to the end by a Laira Castle which was always the cleanest loco seen in the week.

Helpful info as it does help us narrow down which service our famous bear most likely to have been on

 

[The exile]

Via Weymouth, even if the Channel Islands was the main destination from there.

As the Channel Islands are a “relic” of the Duchy of Normandy, they count in my book (wasn’t there a Weymouth -Cherbourg anyway?)

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Did any of the Plymouth liners make calls in France (as some of the Southhamption ones did)?

The inbound Cunard 'Queens' typically called at Plymouth then Cherbourg and then Southampton - hence the strap-line 'land at Plymouth and save a day'. The Plymouth calls were dropped by the late '50s as the airline competition kicked in. French Line vessels also called inbound to Le Havre - SS 'Liberté' was the last transatlantic vessel to call at Plymouth in Nov. 1961, although some West Indies services called into 1962.

 

[Gloster]

As the Channel Islands are a “relic” of the Duchy of Normandy, they count in my book (wasn’t there a Weymouth -Cherbourg anyway?)

As far as I can see from a very quick look, Weymouth-Cherbourg and St Malo were operated by the GWR until 1910, after which it lost this traffic to the L&SWR, but gained a monopoly on the traffic further west (Brest and Nantes), which probably didn’t justify boat trains. There were some residual GWR rights for Cherbourg, primarily for excursions.

Did any of the Plymouth liners make calls in France (as some of the Southhamption ones did)?

Again from a quick look, I reckon that it was mainly the continental lines such as Holland-America, Hamburg-America and Norddeutscher Lloyd that called at both Cherbourg and Plymouth outbound. It was presumably simpler and quicker to heave to outside the Sound and have Sir Francis Drake come out than go right up the Solent to Southampton.

 

[Bevan Price]

Looking back at the 1910 Bradshaw reprint, some other ports with sailings to mainland Europe included Queenborough, Grimsby, Hull, and West Hartlepool. Several of these had advertised boat train connections from London, or places like Manchester / Liverpool, etc.
Also some "long distance" sailings from Glasgow & Liverpool included intermediate calls in France or Portugal

 

[Harlequinuk]

What would be the headcode of a victoria > dovre boat train ; being cep>bep>cep>mlv? or even the return dover> victoria?

 

[Harpo]

some other ports with sailings to mainland Europe included Queenborough, Grimsby, Hull, and West Hartlepool.

Also Tilbury for Swedish Lloyd to Gothenburg, loco-hauled from St. Pancras bar a few final years.

When I was a kid in the 60's and 70's we went to visit my grandparents in Folkestone.
One of the treats was going along the pier to see the ships. Cote d azure and Maid of Orleans were the ones I remember

My very first channel crossing was Folkestone to Boulogne on Maid Of Orleans in 1971 returning on SS St. Patrick. The latter was my only GWR traction in revenue-earning service.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Also Tilbury for Swedish Lloyd to Gothenburg, loco-hauled from St. Pancras bar a few final years.

What a fascinating rail service and route. I presume it ended in the 1970s, or earlier?

 

[Willie Bee]

As a child I travelled many times from Whitley Bay over to Northern Ireland, where we had moved from. If we all went, dad would drive us .. over to Stranraer, then the ferry to Larne and finally to Bangor.

However, if I went with my mum only, it would involve a late night train from Newcastle to Carlisle, then the train from there, leaving well past midnight straight to the port at Stranraer ready for the early morning ferry.

We would jump on the train at Carlisle, find an empty carriage and lie down, pretending we were alseep .. any other passengers would then go somewhere else. Later I would always fall asleep .. after all, it was way past my bedtime.

Just looking on the forum's site, the same journey now would involve 4 trains and the ferry doesn't even go from Stranraer now anyway.

 

[D6130]

What a fascinating rail service and route. I presume it ended in the 1970s, or earlier?

Yes....hauled by Cricklewood-allocated class 27s in the D5379-5415 series

 

[Sun Chariot]

Yes....hauled by Cricklewood-allocated class 27s in the D5379-5415 series

Thanks @D6130 My weekend homework is to find an online photo of that service!

 

[Davester50]

The only "boat trains" I took, or nearly took in the mid 80s, were the London to Dover to connect with the Jetfoil to Ostend, and the connection from Sittingbourne to Sheerness to catch the Olau Line ferry.
The nearly took was the Cruise Liner connection to Southampton Docks, which my dad refused to pay the extra for, so ended up getting the service train to Southampton Central!

 

[sh24]

Fond memories of CEP+MLV lashups on Channel Trains from Victoria to Dover Western Docks and Folkestone Harbour. Great start and end to Interrail adventures in the early 90's.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Fond memories of CEP+MLV lashups on Channel Trains from Victoria to Dover Western Docks and Folkestone Harbour. Great start and end to Interrail adventures in the early 90's.

Mid May 1986, I photographed a 14-coach train arriving into Victoria; MLVs 68005 + 68003 the London end (both in L&SE "Jaffa"); and a CEP-BEP-CEP rake attached to them.