Guards not doing their job properly (and other poor experiences with staff on the railway)

[Tetragon213]

I must generally concur with the opening statement; the quality of guards has massively gone downhill for certain TOCs.

SWR and GWR in my experience haven't actually been too bad. Most of my interactions with SWR guards have been actually very positive.

Avanti and LNR tend to be a bit hit-or-miss, while WMR is probably in the lower half. ScotRail is also very hit-or-miss. I have noticed that WMR guards tend to hide in the back cab a lot of the time, though it's usually on graveyard services with few passengers anyway. I've never had them be actively hostile, just... very passive overall; it's almost as if they're not there half the time.

But my gods, little can beat CrossCountry in the "being awful in every conceivable way" metrics.

I've had more than a few incidents of XC guards being incredibly unfriendly and unprofessional; in one case, with an XC guard on a Bristol-Sheffield run, when I informed him someone had stolen my seat reservation, he said words to the effect of "what do you want me to do? Go away". Had he simply said "terribly sorry, but there's nothing I can do. Have you tried Coach Z?", I'd have been far less miffed. Another guard on a service into Cardiff spent a solid minute and a half inspecting my ticket, as she seemingly convinced herself it was a fake. She shot me a rather angry look after clipping it, seemingly disappointed she wouldn't be able to throw me off the train for having a counterfeit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I must generally concur with the opening statement; the quality of guards has massively gone downhill for certain TOCs.

SWR and GWR in my experience haven't actually been too bad. Most of my interactions with SWR guards have been actually very positive.

SWT seemed to be particularly good at making use of guards and ensuring they were professional and proactive. Probably the best on the railway. I guess that culture is still there.

Avanti and LNR tend to be a bit hit-or-miss, while WMR is probably in the lower half. ScotRail is also very hit-or-miss. I have noticed that WMR guards tend to hide in the back cab a lot of the time, though it's usually on graveyard services with few passengers anyway. I've never had them be actively hostile, just... very passive overall; it's almost as if they're not there half the time.

The impression I have of WMT is that many of their guards just have no interest in interacting in any way with passengers. They will do the safety bit professionally and correctly and some do announcements but will otherwise hide in the cab. They aren't hostile but just do the bare minimum the job requires and almost never go above and beyond.

But my gods, little can beat CrossCountry in the "being awful in every conceivable way" metrics.

I've had more than a few incidents of XC guards being incredibly unfriendly and unprofessional; in one case, with an XC guard on a Bristol-Sheffield run, when I informed him someone had stolen my seat reservation, he said words to the effect of "what do you want me to do? Go away". Had he simply said "terribly sorry, but there's nothing I can do. Have you tried Coach Z?", I'd have been far less miffed. Another guard on a service into Cardiff spent a solid minute and a half inspecting my ticket, as she seemingly convinced herself it was a fake. She shot me a rather angry look after clipping it, seemingly disappointed she wouldn't be able to throw me off the train for having a counterfeit.

I can sort of see how that happens. Working for a TOC where almost no customers are in any way satisfied (plus the management are from Amazon) must really wear one down.

 

[AlterEgo]

My own experience is LNR's guards are getting better - at least from a revenue standpoint. I used to be able to get all the way to London from Long Buckby without getting my ticket checked, but on the last dozen or so trips I have had a check every time.

I can't recall any negative interactions with guards myself, just some overzealous announcements.

 

[Bikeman78]

Which makes all departure boards, apps, and passenger information completely irrelevant!

When I went to Earlswood the week before last, various sources of information told a different story. Fortunately the driver confirmed that the train would in fact stop at Earlswood. Without that confirmation, I'd have got off at Redhill for a bus, or just walked. Would still have been quicker than trying to get back from Horley with the service completely up the spout.

 

[Horizon22]

I’ve never got the argument about opening windows overwhelming air conditioning.

If it’s hot inside and cooler outside then a flow of cooler air from outside will help the air conditioning, not break it. If it’s hot inside and hot outside then chances are the air conditioning has already proven ineffective in which case you might as well have a flow of air. The only time open windows would be an issue is if the outside air is hotter *and* the air conditioning has only just been switched on and hasn’t had a chance to cool things down yet.

There’s a separate issue with some older non-air-conditioned trains where the heating thermostats are placed in a position where they get draught from open windows, so on milder days you could end up with a situation where opening windows causes the heating to come on. This was very much the case on the class 365, personally I quite liked both heating and a good blast of fresh outside air, however they did used to get a lot of complaints about heating being too fierce.

It is more than about consistency of the temperature. Sometimes aircon needs time to kick in and stabilise, which it cannot do if windows are being opened/shut/opened potentially.

There is a reason modern trains do not have or need hopper windows as knowledge of HVAC has improved. Although it is true that on older trains it can sometimes be closer to "air cooling" and may be not as effective, but is probably even less effective with windows opened.

 

[tfw756rider]

I recently experienced the guard of my ("end doors") train hiding in the back cab the "whole time".

No ticket checks, he literally only did the doors, and he didn't even self-dispatch properly.

When I got off, I saw him already in the back cab (not getting into the back cab, but already in the back cab) when the 2-car train had only just gone past the end of the platform it departed from, at the "middle of nowhere" station at which I was the only person.

There was no way he looked out of the local door windows and did safety checks as the train departed - he obviously went straight into the back cab, never mind about safety...

 

[WAB]

Not hard to respond “oh okay I haven’t been told but I’ll check with my control”, though, is it?

Exactly. No excuse for rudeness.

 

[bramling]

It is more than about consistency of the temperature. Sometimes aircon needs time to kick in and stabilise, which it cannot do if windows are being opened/shut/opened potentially.

This is exactly my point, the only time it’s a problem is if the air conditioning has only just come on, and there’s a flow of warm air coming in. If things are already at the point where the air conditioning has been working away for some time and hasn’t managed to achieve much cooling then you might as well have a window open, and if it’s cold outside then it’s no issue anyway (just like the 387 I’m on right now).

There is a reason modern trains do not have or need hopper windows as knowledge of HVAC has improved.

Yet fast forward a few months and there’s guaranteed to be a thread on here regarding awful conditions on trains with dodgy air conditioning during a hot spell.

 

[EYFanatic]

What really gets me angry with some guards, and it oddly seems to be the Leeds based Northern ones for the most part, is trying to board a service with a wheelchair user - with my father using one, I have taken a much greater interest in the matter. On multiple occasions, people have boarded the train with luggage the size of commercial supertankers and put them in the wheelchair spaces and then walked halfway down the train to sit down. Along comes the guard to get the ramp out, looks at the bags and boxes and turns to us and says word along the line of "Sorry... There isn't any space". On one particular occasion, this happened on a Leeds-Blackpool service (a 158 covered for the usual unit) and I pointed out to the guard the empty luggage spaces and they huffed and said "Not getting involved, love, try the next service" and started walking away to the rear set of doors. I asked the guard why and she said, and I quote, "I'm already late and this'll hold things up, yeah? Just get the next one", got in and dispatched.

Some strongly worded letters were sent to Northern about that one

 

[Iskra]

I commute/travel within Yorkshire a lot, mainly on Northern but sometimes other operators.

I find 99% of guards to be sound, I certainly don't see any evidence of a mass decline in standards compared to years gone by.

 

[Segedunum]

I commute/travel within Yorkshire a lot, mainly on Northern but sometimes other operators.

I find 99% of guards to be sound, I certainly don't see any evidence of a mass decline in standards compared to years gone by.

I've found Northern to have gone the other way - I had a spate of incidents with truly nasty guards over a decade ago, all of whom have probably retired by now. Nowadays they're largely sound on the east side of the network, and far more proactive with ticket checking and generally being present in the saloon.

 

[35B]

I’ve never got the argument about opening windows overwhelming air conditioning.

If it’s hot inside and cooler outside then a flow of cooler air from outside will help the air conditioning, not break it. If it’s hot inside and hot outside then chances are the air conditioning has already proven ineffective in which case you might as well have a flow of air. The only time open windows would be an issue is if the outside air is hotter *and* the air conditioning has only just been switched on and hasn’t had a chance to cool things down yet.

There’s a separate issue with some older non-air-conditioned trains where the heating thermostats are placed in a position where they get draught from open windows, so on milder days you could end up with a situation where opening windows causes the heating to come on. This was very much the case on the class 365, personally I quite liked both heating and a good blast of fresh outside air, however they did used to get a lot of complaints about heating being too fierce.

Surely the underlying issue here is the frailty of the air conditioning on the 158s, and their sheer lack of grunt?

 

[amahy]

On certain routes where the stations are quite close together (i.e. average of 3 minutes between stops), the guard has to make the decision to do some tickets or no tickets, especially if it's a route known for having it's fair share of "pay when challenged". Regarding railcards, it slows down checking tickets when people attempt to locate the railcard within another app and flapping when it displays an error message due to having no mobile signal.

Although still doesn't stop some passengers blocking the door even if the guard gets there with plenty of time before the train arrives at the station, especially if it's a station which requires the guard to use that particular door (SDO).

I agree with it being a difficult situation when there is a short distance between stops, however in my opinion, it is more important that the train runs on time, than the TOC losing a few quid! After all, most passengers do pay, and aren't regular fare dodgers, and in some cases, a few minutes delay could cause a passenger to miss a connection, and cause big disruption and stress for them. A few fare dodgers should not ruin the journey for everyone else who has paid. Most experiences I've had, there have been long gaps between stations, and the guard hasn't been at the doors in time.

This also has reminded me of another situation I witnessed last year, where two school girls boarded at Hebden Bridge, only going to Mytholmroyd. They were very surprised when the guard came and asked to see their tickets, as Hebden Brige to Mytholmroyd is only 2 minutes! They said that their tickets were on their phone, and that their phone had died. Understandably, the guard made them pay again, but did not give them their tickets, as the train was arriving into Mytholmroyd at that point, so didn't have time to wait around for them to print.

As for special stop orders, until the guard (and more importantly the driver) gets told by station staff with the paperwork, or receives a phone call from control, they are not calling at those additional stations, similar to when stops get ripped out, sometimes the guard is the last to get told that due to late running the stops at X, Y & Z have been ripped out. Especially when they are handing over to another guard before those stations.

With the special stop/not to stop orders thing, there seems to be a lack of failsafes for if the train crew don't recieve the order!

 

[Haywain]

With the special stop/not to stop orders thing, there seems to be a lack of failsafes for if the train crew don't recieve the order!

The 'failsafe' is that the train runs to it's original schedule..

 

[35B]

The 'failsafe' is that the train runs to it's original schedule..

I'm not sure that's "safe" if the public information is stating the deviation from plan, and the traincrew don't receive an SSO. That would put both public and traincrew in an unreasonable position.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

On my last 6 trains including a return from Preston to London, nobody checked my tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely the underlying issue here is the frailty of the air conditioning on the 158s, and their sheer lack of grunt?

The issue with 158 air con is that it was designed for CFC refrigerants and so is inadequate for modern refrigerants which, while the abandonment of CFCs has meant the ozone layer has closed (an environmental success for once) it does mean older air con systems don't work very well and need replacing. On the TOCs where it has been replaced (forget which now) it does work OK. 166s were the same, it was useless. Yet in the 1990s when new it was like walking into a fridge on a hot day (rather than an oven).

In the end though they're just getting old. Almost "heritage units"! So staff do their best with them I guess. Often it is the case that the air con is working but the windows are open so you're just trying to cool the outside air, but often it's not. As others say it's easy to put your hand by a vent and check.

 

[amahy]

The 'failsafe' is that the train runs to it's original schedule..

Yes, as 35B said, this results in major disruption for passengers, which is not a good fail safe! A fail safe would be, for example, to drop the reliance on a piece of paper to convey critical information. I can’t think of another method of transport that uses this method. In the air industry, if a plane needs to divert to a different airport, the message is conveyed over a radio. Why can’t the same apply to the rail industry?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, as 35B said, this results in major disruption for passengers, which is not a good fail safe! A fail safe would be, for example, to drop the reliance on a piece of paper to convey critical information. I can’t think of another method of transport that uses this method. In the air industry, if a plane needs to divert to a different airport, the message is conveyed over a radio. Why can’t the same apply to the rail industry?

That's the same airline industry that still uses dot matrix printers for passenger manifests? Really industries often tend to stick with what they've always done if it works and there's not a strong reason to change it, not just rail.

 

[35B]

Yes, as 35B said, this results in major disruption for passengers, which is not a good fail safe! A fail safe would be, for example, to drop the reliance on a piece of paper to convey critical information. I can’t think of another method of transport that uses this method. In the air industry, if a plane needs to divert to a different airport, the message is conveyed over a radio. Why can’t the same apply to the rail industry?

Actually, I regard the piece of paper as a good approach firmly embedded in signalling practice. With many drivers using paper schedule sheets, it also significantly reduces the risk of forgetting the extra stop - which is definitely not failsafe. However, until the issues over electronic devices in cab are resolved, the best that's likely to be on offer.

The problem is human, where messages are being shared through one channel but not through another, which leads to the disconnect you experienced.

Traincrew also need to remember that they are part of their employer's customer service, and to use (and be provided with) effective means of communicating uncertainty - I've taken "I'm sorry, I know that's on the board but I've not had that confirmed yet; please wait" as an honest statement of position.

 

[AndrewE]

Not hard to respond “oh okay I haven’t been told but I’ll check with my control”, though, is it?

exactly.

 

[Horizon22]

Yes, as 35B said, this results in major disruption for passengers, which is not a good fail safe! A fail safe would be, for example, to drop the reliance on a piece of paper to convey critical information. I can’t think of another method of transport that uses this method. In the air industry, if a plane needs to divert to a different airport, the message is conveyed over a radio. Why can’t the same apply to the rail industry?

Some TOCs are moving to GSMR (often DOO ones), or direct phone calls.

The issue with the latter is if it goes unanswered, then you need a “belt and braces” backup.

Signal issues, conflicting safety-critical duties, and a lack of confirmation of receipt all means that phone calls, an app notification or an email all have pitfalls if GSMR isn’t used.

I do agree than in the example used, the guard could have used a different tone and wording to state they weren’t sure yet.

 

[LowLevel]

Half the time with the 158s it's down to recognising when it's actually broken rather than just overheating.

It can generally be broken down into a few states of being:

Working: micropack says Hi Cooling or Cooling 2 or similar, evap fans are roaring away in the vestibules, a good flow of condensate out of the doorstep drains.

Working but overheated: in the above state, but High Pressure Fault, can be reset, will either start working again or immediately trip.

Not working due to there being no coolant - Low Pressure Fault - usually accompanied by the said coolant oozing through the vestibule ceiling panels or staining indicating it has already escaped in the recent past.

Not working due to some other defect, alternator not running etc - Micropack says hi Cooling/cooling but no evap fans roaring in the vestibules - usually requires fitters or the maintenance contractors attention. There are sometimes ways of getting it going again but it's usually beyond the traincrew's training to do so.

Half the problem is getting the latter defects fixed. Fuel line fitters with not much time and a lot of trains to see to late at night usually just reset it, observe it is in Cooling mode and at an acceptable temperature (at night, in the dark) and book the Fault as reset OK. You lose literally weeks sometimes getting faults properly investigated.

I am a reasonably technically competent guard with a lot of experience on 158s - I am pretty good at explaining in a suitable way to the maintenance controllers what is and isn't happening so they escalate the fault accordingly (though I'm not a fitter and not always right). Half the game is bypassing the fuel line for defects that require attention so that even if it doesn't happen immediately the contractors at least get booked to attend.

 

[amahy]

Actually, I regard the piece of paper as a good approach firmly embedded in signalling practice. With many drivers using paper schedule sheets, it also significantly reduces the risk of forgetting the extra stop - which is definitely not failsafe. However, until the issues over electronic devices in cab are resolved, the best that's likely to be on offer.

The problem is human, where messages are being shared through one channel but not through another, which leads to the disconnect you experienced.

Traincrew also need to remember that they are part of their employer's customer service, and to use (and be provided with) effective means of communicating uncertainty - I've taken "I'm sorry, I know that's on the board but I've not had that confirmed yet; please wait" as an honest statement of position.

Even in this position, it isn’t ideal, and causes confusion for passengers. Why give passengers information that is incorrect or isn’t confirmed? Surely the order of action should be that the train crew receive the order, before it goes on the departure board?

 

[35B]

Even in this position, it isn’t ideal, and causes confusion for passengers. Why give passengers information that is incorrect or isn’t confirmed? Surely the order of action should be that the train crew receive the order, before it goes on the departure board?

I completely agree - but you'll notice that I put that forward as a mitigation, not as the initial answer

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even in this position, it isn’t ideal, and causes confusion for passengers. Why give passengers information that is incorrect or isn’t confirmed? Surely the order of action should be that the train crew receive the order, before it goes on the departure board?

That's not practical and would often mean that the stop wouldn't be advertised until way too late to be useful.

 

[AlterEgo]

Even in this position, it isn’t ideal, and causes confusion for passengers. Why give passengers information that is incorrect or isn’t confirmed? Surely the order of action should be that the train crew receive the order, before it goes on the departure board?

In an ideal world, yes, but then what you might end up with is someone in Control waiting with their finger hovering over a button until they get confirmation the SSO has been delivered, and only then advertise the train - which might be ready to leave.

Better to put the stop in the data and issue the SSO in the usual way.

 

[ainsworth74]

I commute/travel within Yorkshire a lot, mainly on Northern but sometimes other operators.

I find 99% of guards to be sound, I certainly don't see any evidence of a mass decline in standards compared to years gone by.

I've found Northern to have gone the other way - I had a spate of incidents with truly nasty guards over a decade ago, all of whom have probably retired by now. Nowadays they're largely sound on the east side of the network, and far more proactive with ticket checking and generally being present in the saloon.

Agreed, I'm up in Teesside (which is the same bit of Northern as Leeds/Yorkshire from a management perspective unlike Manchester) and I find the vast majority of guards are spot on. Usually at worst professional in their interactions but most are quite friendly. They also are very very keen on their getting their scans in and far more proactive on revenue than they used to be back in the days of paper tickets (though they were never dreadful back then).

I don't really recognise many of the issues raised on this thread with staff. I've had the odd bad interaction here and there but the vast majority of staff are great. And plenty of train guards turned a blind eye to the letter of the rules when I've needed a hand due to disruption (XC guards allowing travel with TPE tickets when no acceptance was in place for instance). Or even just being helpful (LNER guards letting me travel several hours earlier than booked because I got to a station early)!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed, I'm up in Teesside (which is the same bit of Northern as Leeds/Yorkshire from a management perspective unlike Manchester) and I find the vast majority of guards are spot on. Usually at worst professional in their interactions but most are quite friendly. They also are very very keen on their getting their scans in and far more proactive on revenue than they used to be back in the days of paper tickets (though they were never dreadful back then).

It's interesting you say that, as while Northern (West) has its share of problems, most notably relating to Sunday working, I've always found them proactive with revenue, right back to the 90s. Some would take real pride in doing revenue and doors on a heaving 2-car in the peak, barely stopping moving the entire journey (though admittedly trains are now longer most of them do still try). The endemic laziness down South is quite a contrast to that.

Merseyrail is a contrast to that, but Merseyrail guards have rarely been tasked with revenue over the years (there was a brief period in the late 90s/early 2000s when the barrier checks were removed and they were but it soon dropped away) so the culture has always just been to be operational.

 

[LucyP]

Why do some guards bother to make the same announcement at the automated announcement makes? They generally do it within a few seconds of the automated announcement, and are not as articulate as the automated announcement. Why repeat the same information in a worse manner?