Guards not doing their job properly (and other poor experiences with staff on the railway)

[amahy]

Has anybody else noticed that the quality of customer facing railway staff has gone down in recent years, especially train guards. I have had several bad experiences in recent months/years, and wanted to share some of them.

Northern train from Manchester Victoria to Leeds, departure board said calling additionally at intermediate stations between Rochdale and Todmorden, to make up for a previous train that was cancelled. Despite all departure boards and apps saying the train was due to call at additional stations, the guard did an announcement before departure, saying the train was calling only at Rochdale, Todmorden, stations to Leeds etc… as you would expect, he was then confronted by many confused passengers, including myself. He was very rude to people asking him questions, including me, when I showed him the National Rail app, showing the train calling at the intermediates. His response to this was, “that’s just an app mate”, despite this being the information that had been given to everyone, apart from him! Finally, the dispatcher turned up, and gave him the Special Stop order, and only then, did he believe the information. He never apologised to anyone about the confusion.

Other offences I have repeatedly experienced, especially with Northern, but also Transport for Wales, Scotrail, and other train operating companies, include:

- Guards and other on train revenue protection staff scanning e-tickets as quickly as possible, without actually checking them (they don’t look at the screen once). Thank you for clarification on this.

- On train staff failing to deal with basic antisocial behaviour on trains, ignoring people blasting out music, and feet and dogs on seats.

- Train guards taking ages to open the doors at stations, to the point of delaying the train. (This can either be due to them still checking tickets while sitting in the station, or coming out the back cab at the last minute.) In one case, a Northern guard was checking tickets while arriving at a station, and when the aisle was blocked by people wanting to get off, they rudely announced, “I need to get to the door!”, when if they’d got to the door sooner, instead of checking tickets, there wouldn’t have been a problem.

- Train guards sitting in the back cab, then coming through the train to close windows that I had just opened, because the train was too hot. If they were checking tickets, I would partly understand, but when they aren’t, it annoys me, as the temperature of the train doesn’t affect them if they are sitting in the back cab!

- Train guards failing to open windows on class 158s in hot weather. In one case with Northern, the heating was on, it was 25+ degrees, and when I asked them to open the windows, they said they would check if the air con was working. Half an hour later, when I got off the train, they had made zero progress on my request. On a different occasion with Northern, the guard said that they weren’t allowed to open the windows on class 158s, and they would get into trouble with their manager. A few weeks later, I saw the same guard opening windows on a class 158! A different case on TfW, the guard said opening windows wouldn’t improve airflow.

- On train staff disappearing when you need them most. Has anybody else noticed that they stop checking tickets and resort to sitting in the back cab at the first sign of trouble, such as youths under 18 smoking on a train, or drunks causing a nuisance?

Please note, that this is not the majority of train staff, and most do a good job. This is also not intended to be an attack on train staff. I just think it’s important to call out bad behaviour and negligence at work. Passenger experience should always be a priority.

 

[Bletchleyite]

- Guards and other on train revenue protection staff scanning e-tickets as quickly as possible, without actually checking them (they don’t look at the screen once).

The devices beep differently based on the outcome so they only have to look and go back to a passenger if they get the "bad" beep.

- On train staff failing to deal with basic antisocial behaviour on trains, ignoring people blasting out music, and feet and dogs on seats.

I had an issue like this yesterday on a Northern service where the guard had been, for a good ten minutes, standing with some friends chatting not far from me, while some idiot played his phone out loud really loudly, even after I had asked him to turn it down (and he did, but then later back up again) and someone else intervened too. I said out loud to the other passenger but with the intention of her overhearing something like "well, you'd think the guard would deal with it seeing as she's stood there" and she seemed more annoyed by that than the evident breach of Bylaw 7, coming over and saying very bluntly "well if you'd asked me I would have done", to which I said "well can you please?" and she did, and it remained off for the rest of the journey.

I do understand that some staff fear such encounters and so won't intervene, but on being prompted she seemed happy to do so. So why not deal with it proactively?

I do question why this isn't seen as something that should be done proactively, because it clearly *will* be annoying someone and that someone may be e.g. a slight female passenger fear speaking up rather than someone like I who could have easily put the guy on the floor if he'd come over and attempted to get physically nasty over it (so far I've only had verbally nasty, sometimes very nasty indeed).

- Train guards failing to open windows on 158s in hot weather. In one case with Northern, the heating was on, it was 25+ degrees, and when I asked them to open the windows, they said they would check if the air con was working. Half an hour later, when I got off the train, they had made zero progress on my request. On a different occasion with Northern, the guard said that they weren’t allowed to open 158 windows, and they would get into trouble with their manager. A few weeks later, I saw the same guard opening windows on a 158! A different case on TfW, the guard said opening windows wouldn’t improve airflow - utter b**ls**t!

It's a Bylaw breach but some house keys will open those. Don't ask me how I know

- On train staff disappearing when you need them most. Has anybody else noticed that they stop checking tickets and resort to sitting in the back cab at the first sign of trouble, such as youths under 18 smoking on a train, or drunks causing a nuisance?

This is often a fear for safety, but as noted above it isn't always...

Please note, that this is not the majority of train staff, and most do a good job. Nor is this intended to be an attack on train staff. I just think it’s important to call out bad behaviour/negligence at work. Passenger experience should always be a priority.

Safety is the first priority for guards who are operational staff. But far too many *just* do that. For Southern OBSs the passengers are the only thing they're there for, but with many fiddling with their phone seems to be more of a priority (fortunately, thus far, always with the volume off, as if I ever encounter one doing it out loud they're going to get both barrels via Customer Services!)

One of my major bugbears, to add to the thread, is Bletchley guards and their unwillingness to even bother getting out of the cab. There are 4-5 of them who do revenue, the rest don't, not even on the Marston Vale. It really is unacceptable and should be a disciplinary issue, but I guess there's too much of a fear of unrest to actually manage the issue properly.

From Newcastle to Bletchley via Carlisle, Crewe and MKC yesterday, I had one ticket check. One. The gateline was open at Newcastle and Bletchley and the only on train check was on the Northern (though see the note above), though it's perhaps understandable that the Avanti didn't due to the overcrowding. The 730 even seemed to have an automated announcement along the lines of "if you need the guard they are in the middle of the train" so it's almost like they accept that enough to add an automatic announcement!

 

[amahy]

The devices beep differently based on the outcome so they only have to look and go back to a passenger if they get the "bad" beep.

Thank you for clarification on this. I never noticed any differences in beeps!

It's a Bylaw breach but some house keys will open those. Don't ask me how I know

Isn't a 30 degree train also a Byelaw breach? I swear I remember a law about temperatures in public spaces.

This is often a fear for safety, but as noted above it isn't always...

Safety is the first priority for guards who are operational staff. But far too many *just* do that. For Southern OBSs the passengers are the only thing they're there for, but with many fiddling with their phone seems to be more of a priority (fortunately, thus far, always with the volume off, as if I ever encounter one doing it out loud they're going to get both barrels via Customer Services!)

This seems very selfish to me, but understandably so. But what about everyone elses safety? Someone smoking on a train especially, definitely does impact the safety of the train, and its passengers, as it could cause a fire on board!

 

[amahy]

As a follow up to the point about safety and people being thugs, at the very least, if the staff member didn't feel confident about dealing with it themselves, they could call the BTP, travel safe officers, or other security staff for assistance.

 

[sh24]

In comparison to the BR era, I would say on board staff are leaps and bounds better!

 

[dave87016]

On Saturday I boarded a 4 car ( 2 x 150/1) on the 14:20pm from Blackburn - Headbolt lane , guard was in the rear set and in the front set there was a female and male member of staff who both sat in the middle of the train they were revenue protection officers I believe as the woman carried 3 devices and had her backpack on when walking through the train and scanning tickets

Without going into to much detail there was young lad around 14 with his girlfriend , he had a child ticket and the female RPO was hellbent on arguing that she carried on for 15 minutes the make colleague joined her , tried to tell her to calm down and dealt with the customer politely and agreed with the customer the same lady then got into another heated confrontation with a passenger behind me who made it onto the train at Burnley Manchester Road just in the nick of time albeit without a ticket the RPO tried to get details from said customer who kept refusing and wanted to buy a ticket on the train

 

[Tetchytyke]

Train guards failing to open windows on 158s in hot weather. In one case with Northern, the heating was on, it was 25+ degrees, and when I asked them to open the windows, they said they would check if the air con was working. Half an hour later, when I got off the train, they had made zero progress on my request. On a different occasion with Northern, the guard said that they weren’t allowed to open 158 windows, and they would get into trouble with their manager. A few weeks later, I saw the same guard opening windows on a 158! A different case on TfW, the guard said opening windows wouldn’t improve airflow - utter b**ls**t!

The hopper windows are not actually very effective at cooling the train yet, because of the location of the vents, any air which is cooled by the air conditioning goes straight out of the window. This increases the load on the air conditioning system until it is overwhelmed and cuts out. That's why guards are strongly discouraged from opening the windows without checking that the air conditioning is actually working.

So no, what you were told is not "bull****."

His response to this was, “that’s just an app mate”, despite this being the information that had been given to everyone, apart from him! Finally, the dispatcher turned up, and gave him the Special Stop order, and only then, did he believe the information.

Well until he gets the special stop order, it isn't confirmed, and he's right to be wary. He's right, just because NRE says something it doesn't mean it is true. I'm sure that's a lesson he's learned the hard way.

 

[transportphoto]

You have an interesting perception of the right way of doing a job you know seemingly a lot but also very little about. I’m going to play devils advocate.

Finally, the dispatcher turned up, and gave him the Special Stop order, and only then, did he believe the information. He never apologised to anyone about the confusion.

What if the SSO never materialised? The train wouldn’t have been stopping anywhere additionally. The guard’s information comes from the SSO.

Guards and other on train revenue protection staff scanning e-tickets as quickly as possible, without actually checking them (they don’t look at the screen once).

Have you been trained in the scanning of tickets? How would you define what good looks like?

On train staff failing to deal with basic antisocial behaviour on trains, ignoring people blasting out music, and feet and dogs on seats.

Conflict. Each situation requires a dynamic risk assessment. The safest outcome may be that no intervention is made.

Train guards failing to open windows on 158s in hot weather. In one case with Northern, the heating was on, it was 25+ degrees, and when I asked them to open the windows, they said they would check if the air con was working. Half an hour later, when I got off the train, they had made zero progress on my request.

How do you evidence zero progress? Do you know where the aircon controls are in each carriage? Do you know a discussion wasn’t held with the maintenance controller?

On train staff disappearing when you need them most. Has anybody else noticed that they stop checking tickets and resort to sitting in the back cab at the first sign of trouble, such as youths under 18 smoking on a train, or drunks causing a nuisance?

As above; it’s all down to risk. Where is their support coming from?

 

[LYradial]

Wouldn’t it be good if people were perfect, not just ordinary human beings.
but we would have to apply the same criteria to ourselves

 

[Skiddaw]

Must say that with the exception of the Avanti Euston gateline staff (who seem to have permanently got out of bed on the wrong side) everyone I've encountered in recent years at least has been lovely. Perhaps I've just been lucky.

 

[amahy]

The hopper windows are not actually very effective at cooling the train yet, because of the location of the vents, any air which is cooled by the air conditioning goes straight out of the window. This increases the load on the air conditioning system until it is overwhelmed and cuts out. That's why guards are strongly discouraged from opening the windows without checking that the air conditioning is actually working.

So no, what you were told is not "bull****."

If it's 25+ degrees on a train, the air conditioning is not working, or is very ineffective, which is basically the same thing from a passenger's perspective. That, or the temperature was set too high.

Well until he gets the special stop order, it isn't confirmed, and he's right to be wary. He's right, just because NRE says something it doesn't mean it is true. I'm sure that's a lesson he's learned the hard way.

What else is he gonna do, have the train blast through stations that people want to get off at, then have 20 angry passengers all confronting him at Todmorden? The information that's given to passengers should always be the priority, in my opinion. After all, without passengers, none of the passenger TOCs would exist!

You have an interesting perception of the right way of doing a job you know seemingly a lot but also very little about. I’m going to play devils advocate.

While I'm not a railway employee, I have many friends who work on the railway, including train guards, whom which I have talked about topics here.

What if the SSO never materialised? The train wouldn’t have been stopping anywhere additionally. The guard’s information comes from the SSO.

I have witnessed this a couple of times on Northern, one of which was a Northern service from Rochdale to Leeds (starting from Rochdale due to disruption), and the train was supposed to call additionally at Walsden and Sowerby Bridge, only to go sailing through Walsden (I don't know what happened to the Sowerby Bridge stop, as I got off at Todmorden, having been overcarried from Walsden!) Another occassion was a Wigan to Leeds train, calling additionally at Moston, Mills Hill and Castleton, where again, the guard was never given the SSO, but the stops were displayed on apps and departure. And sure enough, the train went sailing through again! Something clearing isn't working with SSOs on Northern.

Have you been trained in the scanning of tickets? How would you define what good looks like?

I have now seen that I was incorrect on this subject, see posts #2 and #3.

Conflict. Each situation requires a dynamic risk assessment. The safest outcome may be that no intervention is made.

As above; it’s all down to risk. Where is their support coming from?

Regarding smoking, there is a risk to the train, and all its passengers, from people smoking on them, especially in the specific case I witnessed, where multiple people were doing it. As I said in post #4, if a member of train staff doesn't feel safe confronting on their own, they should at least call the BTP or other security staff.

How do you evidence zero progress? Do you know where the aircon controls are in each carriage? Do you know a discussion wasn’t held with the maintenance controller?

All I know, is that from me asking for the windows to be opened to me getting off the train, the heater behind my seat was on full blast (and the train was busy, so I didn't have much choice on where to sit), and no windows had been opened. Playing devils advocate again here, even if the air-con unit said it was operational, how does the guard know that it is operational, and that there isn't a fault with the indication? A heater blasting out heat when it's 25+ degrees doesn't seem very operational to me!

 

[Tetchytyke]

What else is he gonna do, have the train blast through stations that people want to get off at, then have 20 angry passengers all confronting him at Todmorden?

Until the SSO is in his hand, the train is not confirmed to be calling at those stations.

A sensible guard isn't going to say the train is calling at the additional stations until it is confirmed in writing that that is, indeed, what will happen.

Of course the guard has no control over where the train actually stops. That would be the driver. Who also won't be making additional calls unless and until the SSO is in his hand.

If it's 25+ degrees on a train, the air conditioning is not working, or is very ineffective, which is basically the same thing from a passenger's perspective. That, or the temperature was set too high.

The class 158 air conditioning is notoriously fairly weak and it takes time to cool the train down. So yes, you need to take time to check whether the air conditioning is working.

Because of where the vents are, if you open the hopper window then any cooler air just goes straight out of the window. And then the air conditioner packs in because of the load. But the hoppers are small and there aren't many of them, so you don't actually get much of a breeze into the train anyway. And that's assuming that the ambient temperature outside is noticeably cooler than that inside the cabin- on hot days, it may well not be.

So, again, what you were told is true.

 

[LowLevel]

I don't need to look at my ticket scanning app unless something is wrong. It gives me an instant signal that all is well that might not be obvious to a passenger. Only if there is manual check needed do I need to pay it any attention.

Class 158 air conditioning requires a surprising amount of technical understanding to get the best of out it. If you just open the windows it quite often won't help matters.

 

[amahy]

I don't need to look at my ticket scanning app unless something is wrong. It gives me an instant signal that all is well that might not be obvious to a passenger. Only if there is manual check needed do I need to pay it any attention.

Class 158 air conditioning requires a surprising amount of technical understanding to get the best of out it. If you just open the windows it quite often won't help matters.

Thank you for your clarification on ticket scanning - I have removed this from the OP. I'd be interested to know what training guards are given on 158 air-con, as it can be very hit and miss in my experience. I've had some excellent ones, and others where it seems to be doing absolutely nothing.

 

[transportphoto]

[…]

I don’t think we’re going to agree. I’d encourage you to consider a career change to see the other perspective.

 

[MrJeeves]

The devices beep differently based on the outcome so they only have to look and go back to a passenger if they get the "bad" beep.

I mean that's relying on the automated tool's beeps actually conveying anything meaningful, which they typically don't, especially when so many staff configure their scanners to be for one specific location on their route instead of on board a service/the next stop.

 

[AlterEgo]

What else is he gonna do, have the train blast through stations that people want to get off at, then have 20 angry passengers all confronting him at Todmorden? The information that's given to passengers should always be the priority, in my opinion. After all, without passengers, none of the passenger TOCs would exist!

But that's your opinion.

A guard has a diagram to work to and they need to be given the SSO by an authorised member of staff, so that is them doing their job correctly.

 

[kkong]

The devices beep differently based on the outcome so they only have to look and go back to a passenger if they get the "bad" beep.

From my observations on ScotRail, I'm not convinced this is (always) the case.

I can see that with my Club 50 discounted tickets, the same beep is emitted as for an undiscounted ticket.

I can see a light orange coloured "warning" at the top of the screen.

I'd estimate that I'm asked to produce my Club 50 card perhaps 10% of the time.

Of that 10%, under half of them actually scan the card to check it's loaded with a valid Club 50 subscription.

 

[amahy]

But that's your opinion.

A guard has a diagram to work to and they need to be given the SSO by an authorised member of staff, so that is them doing their job correctly.

It's not an opinion that the passenger railway wouldn't exist without passengers. The way the guard acted, it was all us passenger's fault that the departure boards and apps didn't match the information he had been given, when it's passengers, along with government subsidy, that pay his wages.

From my observations on ScotRail, I'm not convinced this is (always) the case.

I can see that with my Club 50 discounted tickets, the same beep is emitted as for an undiscounted ticket.

I can see a light orange coloured "warning" at the top of the screen.

I'd estimate that I'm asked to produce my Club 50 card perhaps 10% of the time.

Of that 10%, under half of them actually scan the card to check it's loaded with a valid Club 50 subscription.

It's the same on most TOCs, with my 16-25 railcard, that I almost never get asked to present it.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's not an opinion that the passenger railway wouldn't exist without passengers. The way the guard acted, it was all us passenger's fault that the departure boards and apps didn't match the information he had been given, when it's passengers, along with government subsidy, that pay his wages.

But your assertion that the information given to passengers needs to take priority is wrong. No, it doesn't. Whether his manner was decent or not doesn't have any bearing on whether he was right to accept the SSO properly. What it says on NRE isn't relevant. It is what on his diagram that counts.

 

[LowLevel]

From my observations on ScotRail, I'm not convinced this is (always) the case.

I can see that with my Club 50 discounted tickets, the same beep is emitted as for an undiscounted ticket.

I can see a light orange coloured "warning" at the top of the screen.

I'd estimate that I'm asked to produce my Club 50 card perhaps 10% of the time.

Of that 10%, under half of them actually scan the card to check it's loaded with a valid Club 50 subscription.

To give an idea, you are the guard on a busy train. You know that if you check every railcard for every discounted ticket in detail, you will only be able to check a smallish percentage of the train in the time avaliable, and therefore a reasonable proportion won't be checked at all.

Do you check everything in detail knowing you won't get everything done, or do you, for example, gloss over the senior railcard holders who are not exactly known for routine railcard fraud?

My answer as an experienced guard both in the modern era and from the days where everyone wanting to pay more or less had to be served by me, is a mix of both.

Every now and then I do a detailed check of everything. Most of the time I let my well honed gut instinct guide me. Some wally with their finger over the time or a discount on their eticket will get a grilling because my phone will tell me the indiscretion they are trying to hide.

The regular season ticket holder I see all the time and have done for years will get a proper check once a month from me and the rest of the time I will wave them on without bothering because I know their ticket is in order.

 

[amahy]

But your assertion that the information given to passengers needs to take priority is wrong. No, it doesn't. Whether his manner was decent or not doesn't have any bearing on whether he was right to accept the SSO properly. What it says on NRE isn't relevant. It is what on his diagram that counts.

Which makes all departure boards, apps, and passenger information completely irrelevant!

 

[Flying Snail]

The hopper windows are not actually very effective at cooling the train yet, because of the location of the vents, any air which is cooled by the air conditioning goes straight out of the window. This increases the load on the air conditioning system until it is overwhelmed and cuts out. That's why guards are strongly discouraged from opening the windows without checking that the air conditioning is actually working.

So no, what you were told is not "bull****."

That is not how AC works.

Opening the windows and venting the AC air to atmosphere will not overwhelm and break the system. I don't know why this fallacy is so often repeated in railway circles, especially this forum but it is 100% BS.

Restricting the flow of air over the condenser that dissipates the heat generated will cause the system to overheat and cut out, but by design the hot and cold sides are separated and only the cold side is effected by opening windows in the carriage.

The class 158 air conditioning is notoriously fairly weak and it takes time to cool the train down. So yes, you need to take time to check whether the air conditioning is working.

It really isn't that difficult to ascertain if the AC is working, if the temp in the carriage is above the set temp within a few minutes of it being turned on it is pretty obvious, if the output of the vents isn't noticeably cooler than the surrounding air then it isn't working.

 

[Haywain]

when it's passengers, along with government subsidy, that pay his wages.

That might be the source of the money for wages but it's the management of the business who decide whether he continues to be employed, and they will expect him to be working according to the instructions he is given.

 

[Kite159]

- Train guards taking ages to open the doors at stations, to the point of delaying the train. (This can either be due to them still checking tickets while sitting in the station, or coming out the back cab at the last minute.) In one case, a Northern guard was checking tickets while arriving at a station, and when the aisle was blocked by people wanting to get off, they rudely announced, “I need to get to the door!”, when if they’d got to the door sooner, instead of checking tickets, there wouldn’t have been a problem.

On certain routes where the stations are quite close together (i.e. average of 3 minutes between stops), the guard has to make the decision to do some tickets or no tickets, especially if it's a route known for having it's fair share of "pay when challenged". Regarding railcards, it slows down checking tickets when people attempt to locate the railcard within another app and flapping when it displays an error message due to having no mobile signal.

Although still doesn't stop some passengers blocking the door even if the guard gets there with plenty of time before the train arrives at the station, especially if it's a station which requires the guard to use that particular door (SDO).

As for special stop orders, until the guard (and more importantly the driver) gets told by station staff with the paperwork, or receives a phone call from control, they are not calling at those additional stations, similar to when stops get ripped out, sometimes the guard is the last to get told that due to late running the stops at X, Y & Z have been ripped out. Especially when they are handing over to another guard before those stations.

 

[baz962]

I will weigh in with the part about stopping additionally , as a driver. We have to have a stop order and officially on a form , handed to us by a dispatcher or train running supervisor or similar. We can have control ask via the gsmr radio , but in that case it's at our discretion . If we were to stop without these and don't have the proof , then we can get in trouble. Guard was spot on in that regard.

 

[transportphoto]

when it's passengers, along with government subsidy, that pay his wages.

In my opinion, relying on an “I pay your wages” argument undermines the points you raise and the valid discussion subsequent to that. I concur with the Haywain’s thoughts:

That might be the source of the money for wages but it's the management of the business who decide whether he continues to be employed, and they will expect him to be working according to the instructions he is given.

 

[bramling]

Well until he gets the special stop order, it isn't confirmed, and he's right to be wary. He's right, just because NRE says something it doesn't mean it is true. I'm sure that's a lesson he's learned the hard way.

Not hard to respond “oh okay I haven’t been told but I’ll check with my control”, though, is it?

 

[bramling]

That is not how AC works.

Opening the windows and venting the AC air to atmosphere will not overwhelm and break the system. I don't know why this fallacy is so often repeated in railway circles, especially this forum but it is 100% BS.

I’ve never got the argument about opening windows overwhelming air conditioning.

If it’s hot inside and cooler outside then a flow of cooler air from outside will help the air conditioning, not break it. If it’s hot inside and hot outside then chances are the air conditioning has already proven ineffective in which case you might as well have a flow of air. The only time open windows would be an issue is if the outside air is hotter *and* the air conditioning has only just been switched on and hasn’t had a chance to cool things down yet.

There’s a separate issue with some older non-air-conditioned trains where the heating thermostats are placed in a position where they get draught from open windows, so on milder days you could end up with a situation where opening windows causes the heating to come on. This was very much the case on the class 365, personally I quite liked both heating and a good blast of fresh outside air, however they did used to get a lot of complaints about heating being too fierce.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not hard to respond “oh okay I haven’t been told but I’ll check with my control”, though, is it?

Some staff seriously resent passengers getting info from any source but them. I've had staff wilfully outright lie to me to try to get me not to act on information in Realtime Trains before. Not "yes, that's the xx:xx to Y, but I need you to wait that side of the barrier until it opens for boarding, please" but an unequivocal statement that it was not that train when it was not only "at platform" on RTT but was also displaying the correct destination.

About 30 seconds later it called and it was indeed that train.

One thing I REALLY dislike is being lied to.