• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Altnabreac station and the various legal disputes around it

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
114,003
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Especially as the station had been clsoed for nearly five months. In any case, even if it was open, the timetable does not show ABC (or Scotscalder) as calls (even with an "x" in the time) for the first southbound train - the one that passes at 0717.

I've boarded the early train at Altnabreac (only time I've boarded a train there) having wild camped nearby. But it hasn't served the request stops on that service for a long time now, I think that was to deal with a punctuality issue on that train. The others do, and there's one only about an hour and a bit later so it's not a major loss.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

styles

Established Member
Joined
7 Dec 2014
Messages
4,967
Location
Gwynedd
I've boarded the early train at Altnabreac (only time I've boarded a train there) having wild camped nearby. But it hasn't served the request stops on that service for a long time now, I think that was to deal with a punctuality issue on that train. The others do, and there's one only about an hour and a bit later so it's not a major loss.
Honestly the route is so long that I don't see the point keeping them request stops.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
114,003
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Honestly the route is so long that I don't see the point keeping them request stops.

I think there would be a reasonable argument that there's no point in keeping them open, because they're relatively costly as curiosities used by single figures of passengers per month if not year. But that would be letting them win...
 

styles

Established Member
Joined
7 Dec 2014
Messages
4,967
Location
Gwynedd
I think there would be a reasonable argument that there's no point in keeping them open, because they're relatively costly as curiosities used by single figures of passengers per month if not year. But that would be letting them win...
Oh don't stop them being actual stops.

I want to go back to Altnabreac in summer this year for a mountain biking trip!
 

TheWierdOne

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2020
Messages
435
Location
Yorkshire
I think there would be a reasonable argument that there's no point in keeping them open, because they're relatively costly as curiosities used by single figures of passengers per month if not year. But that would be letting them win...
Where are you getting the idea they are relatively costly? Given that most of them are single platforms with minimal facilities and no staff I doubt the cost of request stops comes close to touching the sides of the cost of a major station like Waverley.
 

CEN60

Member
Joined
17 Dec 2018
Messages
299
Slightly off topic - but the reason for the Request To Stop Kiosks is to allow the trains to travel at line speed through the platforms if they are not required to stop, there are request stop stations on the route where the line speed is higher that the 5 or 10mph (sorry can't remember the correct figure) that the drivers have to slow to in order to prepare to stop in case someone is standing "with their hand out" - the result of trains travelling at line speed is it makes the timetable a bit more robust (As told to me by the NR Team at the time)
 

Purple Train

Established Member
Joined
16 Jul 2022
Messages
2,489
Location
Exile or exile
Where are you getting the idea they are relatively costly? Given that most of them are single platforms with minimal facilities and no staff I doubt the cost of request stops comes close to touching the sides of the cost of a major station like Waverley.
Indeed. And of course, certainly in times gone by, the entire rationale for keeping parliamentary services going is because it's cheaper than closing a station entirely.
 

norbitonflyer

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2020
Messages
5,860
Location
SW London
Where are you getting the idea they are relatively costly? Given that most of them are single platforms with minimal facilities and no staff I doubt the cost of request stops comes close to touching the sides of the cost of a major station like Waverley.
They do need maintenance (which is why ABC had to be clsoed when staff were denied access) and the capital cost of setting up the RtS equipment, including power suipply etc, must have been significant.
 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,769
The couple already allege that early morning drivers (or a single driver) has been using the horn to annoy them. Amusing as it may seem to some, I'd agree with the couple that it's not appropriate, and could even be considered harassment.
I thought that at the time but then it occurred to me that it probably related to the TSR, imposed as a result of people standing on/close to the track, and the need to alert any potential such persons that a train was approaching in the dark.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Is there a source for this? I'm finding in this case that there's actually a lot of rumours. If people read this thread they'll find claims that there were request to stop buttons for example, but these aren't actually backed up with evidence and are in many cases refuted with evidence from the cottage owners (whether people agree with them or not).
There was a photograph online showing the south side of the level crossing, taken by a passenger on the train. The full size gate is down the side of the embankment, a three plank wooden fence and narrow pedestrian gate has been erected in its place. The gate being similar to that by the chained cattle grid at the station.
 
Last edited:

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
9,524
Location
Somerset
They do need maintenance (which is why ABC had to be clsoed when staff were denied access)
Though I suspect a lot of that "need" (over a single year at least) is likely to be satisfying rules and regulations about inspections rather than actual work needed to keep the station genuinely safe. Not saying it doesn't need to be done - but the staff are going to be there to do it at the other stations anyway, so additional costs are minimal (OK - accessing Altnabreac, even without "opposition", is going to add to costs but not massively.)
 

norbitonflyer

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2020
Messages
5,860
Location
SW London
I thought that at the time but then it occurred to me that it probably related to the TSR, imposed as a result of people standing on/close to the track, and the need to alert any potential such persons that a train was approaching in the dark.
I think the TSR had been imposed because the telephones hadd been duisabled (they can be seen in the "Jenny Agutter Tribute Act" videos lying in the ditch) meaning there was no way for authorised users of teh crossing to contact the signalling staff to find if it was safe to cross.

At that time of year the first train passes at around sunrise, there are three during the daylight hours, another two around sunset, and one late in the evening (about 10pm)
 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,769
I think the TSR had been imposed because the telephones hadd been duisabled (they can be seen in the "Jenny Agutter Tribute Act" videos lying in the ditch) meaning there was no way for authorised users of teh crossing to contact the signalling staff to find if it was safe to cross.

At that time of year the first train passes at around sunrise, there are three during the daylight hours, another two around sunset, and one late in the evening (about 10pm)
Yes, sorry, got my wires a bit crossed there. Typing quicker than my brain was processing.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
6,514
Location
Sheffield
ORR figures for station usage on the FNL from 1 April 24 to 31 March 2025 should give Scotrail and Scottish Rail Holdings cause for concern. Overall they are down 8.74% year-on-year, and almost 22% since 2018.

Latest Railfuture 'Rail Future Express' quotes information from The Friends of the Far North Line as above. This Aultnabreac situation adds yet more cost to an already dire financial position. it's a long time since I used the line - but have returned to John O'Groats by car twice since. It really does defy logic to keep this station open. The line itself?
 

185143

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2013
Messages
5,373
Whenever I've been on a Merseyrail train skipping stations in the PEP days, the drivers used to sound the horn approaching stations without exception.

So I've no idea if it's mandated or not, but I'd agree it's good practice. Particularly on a network where passing trains are unusual.

Throw in request stops and crossings during the hours of darkness, seems a no brainer to sound the horn. Lets anyone in the shelter know the train is approaching too if the weather is bad.
 

WAB

Established Member
Joined
27 Jun 2015
Messages
1,313
Location
Anglia
It's rather different to Altnabreac, but waiting at Grantham, passing trains do not blow their horns despite coming through at speed. I suspect customs vary
It is common on parts of the network, particularly those where the majority of trains normally stop at all stations.
 

norbitonflyer

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2020
Messages
5,860
Location
SW London
How much would it cost to divert the railway line away from the area of dispute? That had happened several times in the early days of the railways where station relocations took place.
The disputed area is six miles long.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There was a photograph online showing the south side of the level crossing, taken by a passenger on the train. The full size gate is down the side of the embankment, a three plank wooden fence and narrow pedestrian gate has been erected in its place. The gate being similar to that by the chained cattle grid at the station.

This one?

http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/photo/scaled/27203/

Note the bare poles on the left where the signs should be, and the full size gate in the ditch below them.

I don't know when it was taken, but it was uploaded 7 March 2024, less than a week after the train stopping incident (when the full size gate was still in place).
 
Last edited:

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,689
Location
Isle of Man
It's rather different to Altnabreac, but waiting at Grantham, passing trains do not blow their horns despite coming through at speed. I suspect customs vary
Yet at Durham (southbound) and Northallerton they generally do blow the horn when passing the station.

I can't imagine the drivers will be losing any sleep at disturbing the couple, but that doesn't mean they're doing it to antagonise them.

I think the TSR had been imposed because the telephones hadd been duisabled (they can be seen in the "Jenny Agutter Tribute Act" videos lying in the ditch) meaning there was no way for authorised users of teh crossing to contact the signalling staff to find if it was safe to cross.
It's difficult to separate fact from fiction on this matter. Certainly in previous posts in this thread, someone close to the couple alleged that there hadn't been any tampering at all and, at the same time, that the tampering was caused by the previous owners. Clearly both positions cannot be true.

The photo from @norbitonflyer explains a lot.
 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,769
This one?

http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/photo/scaled/27203/

Note the bare poles on the left where the signs should be, and the full size gate in the ditch below them.

I don't know when it was taken, but it was uploaded 7 March 2024, less than a week after the train stopping incident (when the full size gate was still in place).
Probably, the version I saved was cropped substantially.
 

norbitonflyer

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2020
Messages
5,860
Location
SW London
Certainly in previous posts in this thread, someone close to the couple alleged that there hadn't been any tampering at all and, at the same time, that the tampering was caused by the previous owners. Clearly both positions cannot be true.
Neither is very pluasible. The damage to the equipm,ent at the crossing is evident in videos they have themselves published. And since it was filmed in 2024, nearly three years after they moved in, it is unlikely to have been done by the previous occupants. appeared in a was filmed in marc

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The photo from @norbitonflyer explains a lot.
I didn't take the picture - and there is a copyrighth notice which is I why I linked to it.

The last time I was at Altnabreac in 1980 - I don't recall if the train actually stopped there.
 

brad465

Veteran Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
11,613
Location
Taunton or Kent
Something I've just noticed, if there was one new passenger entry/exit at Altnabreac for every reply to this thread, the annual usage of the station would increase 6-8x fold on post-covid annual use (or 3-4x pre covid).
 

RPM

Established Member
Joined
24 Sep 2009
Messages
1,531
Location
Buckinghamshire
What I'm getting from recent comments is that there isn't actually a justification for routinely blowing the horn and even if there were, it should've applied for years either side.

I'm not giving an opinion on the couple and their behaviour but if the horn has been used since the started of their dispute and ceased towards the end (Ian Appleby himself says he has a log), then I think that's inappropriate, regardless of what I think about the couple.
At the end of the day, aside from at whistleboards, it is up to each individual driver to make decisions about sounding the horn based on perceived hazards.

Knowing that Altnabreac is the site or repeat trespass incidents, plus attempts to interfere with the running of the railway, it seems perfectly sensible for drivers to sound a warning blast when approaching the station and/or crossing.
 

styles

Established Member
Joined
7 Dec 2014
Messages
4,967
Location
Gwynedd
At the end of the day, aside from at whistleboards, it is up to each individual driver to make decisions about sounding the horn based on percieved hazards.
I don't think anybody has disputed that.
Knowing that Altnabreac is the site or repeat tresspass incidents, plus attempts to interfere with the running of the railway, it seems perfectly sensible for drivers to sound a warning blast when approaching the station and/or crossing.
If a driver has spent years passing a station without using their horn, then a dispute about access starts with people who live on or next to the station, and the driver then starts using the horn; bearing in mind this alleged series of events pre-dates the level crossing incidents; and the driver goes on to say something along the lines of, "Hope you're enjoying the morning horns.", I think that's revenge, not safety. We shouldn't encourage that, whatever we think about the ongoing situation.

This does assume that what Ian says is true of course. If it's otherwise then I'd agree.
 

RPM

Established Member
Joined
24 Sep 2009
Messages
1,531
Location
Buckinghamshire
I don't think anybody has disputed that.

If a driver has spent years passing a station without using their horn, then a dispute about access starts with people who live on or next to the station, and the driver then starts using the horn; bearing in mind this alleged series of events pre-dates the level crossing incidents; and the driver goes on to say something along the lines of, "Hope you're enjoying the morning horns.", I think that's revenge, not safety. We shouldn't encourage that, whatever we think about the ongoing situation.

This does assume that what Ian says is true of course. If it's otherwise then I'd agree.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is a good idea to use the horn to taunt the residents either. However, given their subsequent repeated trespass activites, it seems sensible to sound the horn now, even if it wasn't at the beginning.
 

styles

Established Member
Joined
7 Dec 2014
Messages
4,967
Location
Gwynedd
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is a good idea to use the horn to taunt the residents either. However, given their subsequent repeated trespass activites, it seems sensible to sound the horn now, even if it wasn't at the beginning.
Trespass was actually dropped. But otherwise I would agree, if (which isn't what is described) the horn usage started after suspected trespass.

Obviously we only have Ian's side to the story until the court case is heard on Thursday, but assuming Ian is telling the truth about the sequence of events of when the horn use started and the interaction with the driver making a comment about the horn use; then that's not actually in response to suspected trespass it seems. I would be surprised if Ian were saying these things after having seen the CCTV footage recently, as that will presumably make things pretty clear cut, if they weren't true.

Thursday will presumably shed some light on things.
 

norbitonflyer

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2020
Messages
5,860
Location
SW London
We don't know exactly when the horn use started, but it must have been before the trespass incident as one of the drivers involved is reported to have spoken about it on that day.

Some time before the trespass incident, the telephones at the crossing were vandalised (they can be seen in the ditch in one of the videos). The TSR in the area was likely a resposnse to the absence of these phones. Sounding the horn would be a reasonable expedient when approaching a crossing whose sefety has been compromised in that way. Is that when the horn-sounding started?
 

Essan

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2017
Messages
616
Location
Evesham / Lochailort
So this horn malarkey. How exactly does a toot on the horn a few times a day cause anyone any distress? I could understand if it was every 5 minutes. This is just silly children being even more juvenile.

As an aside, I rather like it when the trains passing Essan whilst I'm in residence give a friendly toot!
 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,769
We don't know exactly when the horn use started, but it must have been before the trespass incident as one of the drivers involved is reported to have spoken about it on that day.

Some time before the trespass incident, the telephones at the crossing were vandalised (they can be seen in the ditch in one of the videos). The TSR in the area was likely a resposnse to the absence of these phones. Sounding the horn would be a reasonable expedient when approaching a crossing whose sefety has been compromised in that way. Is that when the horn-sounding started?
It was first mentioned in November 2023, around the time the station temporarily closed and the situation made the national (international - London, England based!) press.

Vandalism was before the standing on the line issue and was brought before the Sheriff on 20 March 2024 but with nothing heard since. Appearance on petition, released on bail with special conditions.
 

nanstallon

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2015
Messages
1,063
I dare say that anything related to Altnabraec currently gets more attention in ScotRail HQ than a station of its size and prominence would typically warrant.
But it is the principle of not letting bumptious idiots destroy a public service. It could be Glasgow Queen Street next time!
 

Top