Alternatively, Cyffordd Marwolaeth has a certain ring to it I feel, and I'm all for place names with historical allusions. Petition wanted.
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South Wales Metro - Future
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Daniel Boone
Member
I appreciate that no details have be released so far but is it likely that the planned Cardiff West Junction improvements would remove (or reduce) the need for mainline service to go via Ninian Park?
Won't make a difference to mainline services? It's a bit of the approach track from the valleys platforms that is being changed. Mainline services basically never *need* to go via Ninian park, as far as I understand it's largely just route knowledge retention.
Daniel Boone
Member
All this news about Cardiff Airports government subsidy has me thinking about an airport link again. Assuming a scenario where it were feasible, what do you see as the ideal solution here? Through station or Terminus? etc
Snow1964
Established Member
There are two possible options, could cut across from about half mile east of Porthkerry viaduct where ground is higher towards the terminal building on north side. It would be a fairly sharp curve if went from western end of the viaduct, although other parts of the line are fairly speed restricted due to curves.
If wanted to go for a through station, going to have to curve fairly sharply to avoid the BA maintenance hanger area, but could then run alongside the fairly modern B4265 (and if it was just a single reversible track on this section then could probably build it on the spare road bed (as appears this road had provision for widening), rejoining near West Aberthaw. The main problem is then what trains would serve the population of the bypassed Rhoose station.
Terminus probably makes the most sense as a rail option, but my preferred option would be to switch the bus link to serve Barry station rather than Rhoose. Barry has 4tph to/from Cardiff now, and the airport is only a slightly longer bus ride than it is from Rhoose. Even if the VoG line gets 2tph there’s still a better service from Barry.
The cost of anything would far outweigh the benefits unless Cardiff Airports passenger numbers dramatically increase. That won't be done by adding a rail link, it's cheap flights at good flight times that attract passengers to Airports, something Cardiff doesn't have currently. Bristol Airport sees over 10m passengers a year and manages with no rail link.
It would probably be easier to build a new station on the main line at the end of the viaduct/runway and build a monorail link to the terminal, similar to Birmingham Airport.
At it's current passenger numbers, the rail/bus link at Rhoose is perfectly fine. What's needed though is 2tph on the VOG line and better direct links to West Wales.
It's worth noting that from South Wales, it is not possible to reach any UK airport with a direct link to the terminal. It either involves a change of train or bus.
It would probably be easier to build a new station on the main line at the end of the viaduct/runway and build a monorail link to the terminal, similar to Birmingham Airport.
At it's current passenger numbers, the rail/bus link at Rhoose is perfectly fine. What's needed though is 2tph on the VOG line and better direct links to West Wales.
It's worth noting that from South Wales, it is not possible to reach any UK airport with a direct link to the terminal. It either involves a change of train or bus.
The Pelican
Member
I'd go for a through station, on a loop from the Vale of Galmorgan line, with a combined redirection of South Wales Mainline trains via the VOG. Ideally the station would operate a Gatwick Airport/Birmingham international of Wales, with through trains to everywhere that Cardiff and Newport have through trains to. It would be pricey but lead to a useful reigonal airport!
Smwrff
Member
I would replace Barry Island terminus with a new Airport terminus. Barry Island to Barry could become a shuttle service if needed - or a bus replacement.
Envoy
Established Member
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No point in having Cardiff Airport as a terminus of trains to/from the east as that cuts off the direct westerly connection to Bridgend for SW Wales. The line also acts as a short cut between Barry and Bridgend and serves the populations at Rhoose and Llantwit Major - who currently are having a raw deal from TFW. (The Conservatives planned a new station at St.Athan but lost the election and Labour scrapped this proposal).
Having a bus link from Barry town station would be incredibly slow - especially when traffic builds up at the roundabouts.
The number of flights this coming summer is increasing mainly thanks to TUI who realise that the airport is underserved with nothing from Jet2 and Easyjet. Westjet are operating on 3 days per week with return flights to Toronto - daylight westbound and over night eastbound.
Having a bus link from Barry town station would be incredibly slow - especially when traffic builds up at the roundabouts.
The number of flights this coming summer is increasing mainly thanks to TUI who realise that the airport is underserved with nothing from Jet2 and Easyjet. Westjet are operating on 3 days per week with return flights to Toronto - daylight westbound and over night eastbound.
Daniel Boone
Member
I hadn't considered that at all, that seems very reasonable.
anthony263
Established Member
From.what Iver heard the westjet flights are selling pretty well. Need the links of Ryanair to base an aircraft at the airport with regular flights.
Rhoose station should be renamed Cardiff airport parkway and have ita long promised 2tph . An hourly express bus to the airport from Cardiff too would be nice along with maybe looking at extending the 321 Talbot Green to Llantwit Major bus to the airport too.
Been talk Pakistan Airlines are looking at a Cardiff flight too. Qatar want a 7 figure sum before they'd restart their flights to Doha but welsh government havw said they wouldn't be prepared to pay that upfront. Bristol.airport are kicking up a stink about Cardiff plan to expand yet they can't cope with what they have now even.if they got the greenlight for their own expansion. Westjet have said they are not getting any subsidy from the welsh government too despite Bristol claiming just that.
I think that road link from the a48 at the top.of 5 mile lane to the m4 at jct 34 needs to be done along with miskin station or as personally call the proposal Cardiff West parkway
Rhoose station should be renamed Cardiff airport parkway and have ita long promised 2tph . An hourly express bus to the airport from Cardiff too would be nice along with maybe looking at extending the 321 Talbot Green to Llantwit Major bus to the airport too.
Been talk Pakistan Airlines are looking at a Cardiff flight too. Qatar want a 7 figure sum before they'd restart their flights to Doha but welsh government havw said they wouldn't be prepared to pay that upfront. Bristol.airport are kicking up a stink about Cardiff plan to expand yet they can't cope with what they have now even.if they got the greenlight for their own expansion. Westjet have said they are not getting any subsidy from the welsh government too despite Bristol claiming just that.
I think that road link from the a48 at the top.of 5 mile lane to the m4 at jct 34 needs to be done along with miskin station or as personally call the proposal Cardiff West parkway
Smwrff
Member
So my proposal -
1) build a new airport station on the existing VoG line at the end of the runway at Porthkerry.
2) relocate 2tph currently terminating at Barry Island to terminate at new aIrport station.
3) increase VoG services to 2 tph - stopping at Airport and Rhoose
4) run a shuttle bus from terminal building to Airport station every 10 mins
5) Extend 2tph to Cardiff Parkway and Newport
This gives 4tph to Barry and Cardiff and 2 tph to Bridgend, at relatively little cost.
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1) build a new airport station on the existing VoG line at the end of the runway at Porthkerry.
2) relocate 2tph currently terminating at Barry Island to terminate at new aIrport station.
3) increase VoG services to 2 tph - stopping at Airport and Rhoose
4) run a shuttle bus from terminal building to Airport station every 10 mins
5) Extend 2tph to Cardiff Parkway and Newport
This gives 4tph to Barry and Cardiff and 2 tph to Bridgend, at relatively little cost.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
And yes - M4 link road - and also Dinas Powys bypass - to improve road connections
Point 2 would mean 4tph to the new station which is overkill for an airport handling just under 1m passengers. Even 2.5m-3m wouldnt need that frequency
On what basis do you say Bristol can’t cope with what they have now?
Smwrff
Member
This could be phased in - new station with 2tph in both directions. Additional 2tph diverted from Barry Island if demand warrants it.
What are your thoughts about new station location??
anthony263
Established Member
Read the comments from people using the airport includ8ng my own experiences when I used to drive coaches to the airport plus the various delays flights get there
Snow1964
Established Member
The problem with Bristol airport is it has number of low cost and holiday airlines doing two out and back flights each day, all compressed into few manic hours
Loads of flights go out 6am-8am, upto 4 flights timetabled for same 5 minute departure time (and yes there is only one runway), then only a handful of flights 9am -1pm, then another manic batch early afternoon as the early flights return (so congestion in arrivals, and busy departures), once these have departed, is quiet until another big block of arrivals in the evening.
Per CAA airport figures
Bristol in August 1,217,472 passengers,
Cardiff in August 123,785 passengers
so Bristol nearly 10 times as busy.
The other problem with Bristol is often means check in is around 4am or 5am, or return is nearer 10pm - 11pm and apart from buses to centre of Bristol, nigh on impossible to get a train to connect for these times.
Most recent CAA published month (November) is
Bristol 616,807 passengers, Cardiff 47,278
which shows how how much variation due to seasonal demand.
Clearly can't justify a Metro to Cardiff airport when during quiet months only 1600 passengers per day.
anthony263
Established Member
Id say just have 2tph over the VOG line along with improved local bus routes to the airport. I think Cardiff future is more with long haul routes and cargo flights etc
Bristol is actually not a bad airport to fly from outside of peak times. There are far worse airports in the UK. Its just in a bad location and very limited on space, hence the cramped departure and check in area, and long walk to gates without travelators, and even on arriving no lift access.
Any improvements to the VOG line need to be in mind of the residents in that area, and those service enhancements will in turn benefit cardiff airport. Not the other way around. There simply isn't the passenger numbers to justify the expense of railway enhancements for the airport only.
Even when cardiff was at 1.6m passengers, the then 20-30 min direct T9 bus was nicknamed the ghost bus.
The airport is fairlybeasily accessible from the Cardiff area and certain valleys area on the current setup. Whats needed is better links from the west. TFW is already tapping into the West Wales to Bristol demand starting in the next year. That actually provides better links to Bristol airport.
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Good in theory, and in my opinion the best option if it were to ever happen. But I believe the cost far outweighs the benefit.
Topological
Established Member
The biggest challenge is how accessible Heathrow is. That accessibility is only going to get better once OOC is online.
This is a thread about Cardiff, but it is relevant to talk about the airport competitors when names like Qatar are mentioned. Realistically, Cardiff is constrained to being a small airport and therefore the transport solutions need to reflect on the likely size of aircraft that would come to Cardiff.
This is a railway forum, but the M4 link is the thing Cardiff Airport most needs.
This is a thread about Cardiff, but it is relevant to talk about the airport competitors when names like Qatar are mentioned. Realistically, Cardiff is constrained to being a small airport and therefore the transport solutions need to reflect on the likely size of aircraft that would come to Cardiff.
This is a railway forum, but the M4 link is the thing Cardiff Airport most needs.
In the light of the issues with the 398s discussed elsewhere, I'm wondering if TfW will bring forward plans to move the 398s to the Coryton/Penarth/Caerphilly services, releasing the 3-car 756s for use elsewhere. This will need some electrification on the Penarth branch, which is owned by Network Rail. The cheapest option would be to install single-wire tramway-style catenary (at 25kV) between Cogan Junction and Penarth. As the maximum speed here is 35mph, there's no need for anything more substantial. Of course, Network Rail may object on the basis that it's nonstandard, but the line doesn't serve any freight and nor is it ever likely to.
They couldn't even get network rail to build a second platform at Dingle road or Penarth within the last 7 years. I doubt they'll manage anything else.
A fixed conductor bar at Penarth might be enough to juice up if they had the drop off platform.
I think they'll (in the long run) maybe try and go for a new round of negotiation on getting more infrastructure transferred from network rail to tfw. Getting Maesteg, Penarth and potentially even Ebbw vale past the Machen junction might be doable. They'll likely want to get ownership of some of the lines round Swansea if they ever do want a metro there perhaps it could be part of that.
A fixed conductor bar at Penarth might be enough to juice up if they had the drop off platform.
I think they'll (in the long run) maybe try and go for a new round of negotiation on getting more infrastructure transferred from network rail to tfw. Getting Maesteg, Penarth and potentially even Ebbw vale past the Machen junction might be doable. They'll likely want to get ownership of some of the lines round Swansea if they ever do want a metro there perhaps it could be part of that.
I dont believe there was ever a plan to use 398s on those routes. Although they would be far more suitable
Isn’t it more that the scheme was cut to save money because of the overspend on the project within the aspects directly controlled by TfW.
TfW's newly-published vision document says that the plan is for "part-electrification" between Cardiff and Cogan to enable tram-trains to reach Penarth and also has the enigmatic comment that "when combined with electrification of the South Wales Main Line, this will allow battery trains to run on the Vale of Glamorgan line". I presume that what this means is that once there are wires at Bridgend for the main line, the bay platform for the VoG will also be wired, and so the 756s will be able to top up their batteries during turnaround and eliminating the need for running on diesel.
I seem to recall someone saying that the 756s could already do Bridgend and back on batteries. Whether that's correct or not, a short section to Cogan to top the batteries up would push the units' range closer to Bridgend, meaning less diesel running on each return trip.
Snow1964
Established Member
At the moment, there aren't any BEMUs (if you ignore the 398 tram trains for local Cardiff services), just diesels and multi mode trains.
It also mentions the aim is to electrify to Pembray & Burry Port (where turn back will be added), so presumably any BEMUs could also get to Carmarthen. (Although would need diesel power to continue to the Pembrokeshire branches, and back)
Seems also suggesting (unfunded at this stage) final electrified section will be Cwrt Sart (near Briton Ferry station) to Pontarddulais, so the north Swansea District line. All rather suggests going to need to order a fleet of BEMUs. Presumably it would then free up some of the 197s to migrate to the mainly diesel routes that need extra capacity.
Recent statistics have shown usage growth in Wales, particularly strong in some areas, so presumably will have to order more trains soon anyway. The usage levels on which 2018 train fleets order was based (usage levels about 2015-2017) is clearly superseded and out of kilter now.
The more I digest what is in that 38 page document it is obvious with talk of frequency improvements, has to be more trains. It is not like can split a 3car train into two 2cars. Usage evidence suggests there are services where 2cars is now crowded and needs expanding. So however look at it need more rolling stock.
I don't see how your comment contradicts the post you quote from @MikePJ. The 756s can run on ac, battery or diesel, and I presume diesel is the last resort. (As an example, there is no intention to run on diesel on the Rhymney Line.)
Snow1964
Established Member
Perhaps I didn't explain myself well, there are only 7 3car, and 17 4car units, even when the tram trains are in service they wouldn't be anywhere near enough to also take over proposed services like Pembroke Dock-Bristol, that could use electric traction where available.
Also if don't need the diesel capacity on a line (either like Rhymney line now, or others if electrification is extended), then need BEMUs to back fill them if they are transferred to part electrified services beyond range of battery EMUs. But there aren't any pure BEMUs suitable for medium distance in South Wales yet.