Penalty Fare Appeal - Invalid Routing

[walkingsophie]

I recently got a penalty fare for invalid routeing when I was doing a journey involving roundabout tickets including using both sections of a return on a single train. I intend to appeal this. I am somewhat busy right now but I will send the relevant details/penalty fare notice later today. If there's any additional information that would be helpful other than the ones listed on the pinned thread, please let me know.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2026 ==

I was using a Upper Halliford to Hinchley Wood any permitted evening out return ticket to travel to London Waterloo, using the outbound section until Wimbledon and the return section to get to Waterloo from Wimbledon using Easement 700014 and Twickenham being a valid routeing point. I can get the forum website to generate itineraries for this by setting via Waterloo and Putney, but not the National Rail website as they do not allow multiple via points.

I got penalty fares at the gatelines at London Waterloo

My penalty fare is attached

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2026 ==

The files did not attach properly last post, let's try again. Sorry for the triple post

 

[sot]

Do you have an itinerary from an accredited sales platform for this purchase?

If so this immediately quashes invalid route as it is completely valid by the new conditions if you are sold it by an accredited retailer.

Otherwise, can you force any similar route to the one you took by using just one via on NRE, as this seems to be valid without even purchasing it.

It seems like you are one of the first to perhaps test these new rules! I highly suspect that the first two appeals will be useless with them believing that this shouldn't be allowed. Perhaps if they are particularly angry about it if it is a major loophole fare they might attempt to do something about removing it too.

Is there any issues of timing of arrival or departure from a London Terminal if you were to attempt the full journey rather than a stop short at Waterloo? I see if you were to carry on the journey at Waterloo it would have likely fouled the no train out of Waterloo after 1559 restriction. That being said there is no overt BoJ restriction listed.

Is the reasoning wrong as there is no boundary or zone listed on this? Is this the ticket held: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=UPH&dest=HYW&tkt=EVB

 

[yorkie]

I recently got a penalty fare for invalid routeing when I was doing a journey involving roundabout tickets including using both sections of a return on a single train. I intend to appeal this. I am somewhat busy right now but I will send the relevant details/penalty fare notice later today. If there's any additional information that would be helpful other than the ones listed on the pinned thread, please let me know.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2026 ==

I was using a Upper Halliford to Hinchley Wood any permitted evening out return ticket to travel to London Waterloo, using the outbound section until Wimbledon and the return section to get to Waterloo from Wimbledon using Easement 700014 and Twickenham being a valid routeing point. I can get the forum website to generate itineraries for this by setting via Waterloo and Putney, but not the National Rail website as they do not allow multiple via points.

I got penalty fares at the gatelines at London Waterloo

My penalty fare is attached

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2026 ==

The files did not attach properly last post, let's try again. Sorry for the triple post

Can you please list the exact itinerary that was produced, and also detail what exactly you did (if it differed from the itinerary in any way)?

Edit: yes I can obtain itineraries, such as:

UPH to TED (SW 12:14-12:29)
TED to WAT (SW 12:35-13:16)
WAT to HYW (SW 13:33-14:02)

This is valid due to easement 700014 , which allows you to double-back between CLJ & WAT.

Now it's been brought to their attention, I suspect SWR may consider re-routeing this fare as "Not via London", in order to prevent this in future.

However, until then, its valid. The PF has been incorrectly issued.

Sadly, rogue companies such as SWR employ inadequately trained revenue protection inspectors, who are unfamiliar with the most basic concepts stated in the Conditions of Travel, and lack common sense. There are no safeguards (or - at best - inadequate ones) in place to prevent badly trained revenue protection officers issuing incorrect Penalty Fares. The problem is endemic at companies such as SWR, and there is no Regulator, Ombudsman or passenger watchdog with the inclination, knowledge, power or desire to do anything about it.

You should appeal the Penalty Fare, though this is likely to accelerate the demise of this loophole ticket (if it's not already been brought to the attention of the pricing team).

 

[sot]

Can I ask why you used the fare since seemingly the off peak Oyster fare (with better time validity) is £1.50 less than the £8.80 paid. The paper version with the same validity is the same price.

I suppose if you needed to additionally break at some unusual intermediate station that is not valid on the through ticket then that is fair.

 

[walkingsophie]

Is this the ticket held: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=UPH&dest=HYW&tkt=EVB

I used that ticket with a 16-25 railcard (which I provided when asked). I used paper tickets

Can you please list the exact itinerary that was produced, and also detail what exactly you did (if it differed from the itinerary in any way)?

I used the itinerary with in the first ticket up to Wimbledon with my first image, and used the route in the second image from Wimbledon to Waterloo. Note that the train I was on ran non-stop from Teddington to Waterloo due to a delay, but it was timetabled to stop at Wimbledon.
I can't quite get the second part to use the specific train I was on, is there a way to ask the forum ticketing website to get on specific trains rather than just via points?

Can I ask why you used the fare since seemingly the off peak Oyster fare (with better time validity) is £1.50 less than the £8.80 paid. The paper version with the same validity is the same price.

I suppose if you needed to additionally break at some unusual intermediate station that is not valid on the through ticket then that is fair.

This saves about £3 compared to getting a return to London Waterloo.

 

[yorkie]

I used that ticket with a 16-25 railcard (which I provided when asked). I used paper tickets

I used the itinerary with in the first ticket up to Wimbledon with my first image, and used the route in the second image from Wimbledon to Waterloo. Note that the train I was on ran non-stop from Teddington to Waterloo due to a delay, but it was timetabled to stop at Wimbledon.
I can't quite get the second part to use the specific train I was on, is there a way to ask the forum ticketing website to get on specific trains rather than just via points?

View attachment 197741

Not quite, but you can specify additional interchange time.

This saves about £3 compared to getting a return to London Waterloo.

Clearly SWR need to re-route the ticket "Not via London", but the revenue protection officer should simply be reporting the anomaly, not issuing a Penalty Fare (at least if they had at least average intelligence and were at least trained on the basics; we can but dream that the rail industry would have such minimum standards...)

If you want to save money, using Contactless might be a more viable option, going forward?

 

[walkingsophie]

If you want to save money, using Contactless might be a more viable option, going forward?

From Upper Halliford, the contactless and paper ticket fares are often identical, and you can not add a railcard to a contactless card unfortunately.

 

[sot]

Perhaps consider the ITSO/swr version of Keygo?

tap2go

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2026 ==

This saves about £3 compared to getting a return to London Waterloo.

Yes, but how are you getting back as you suggest you are using both halves on the journey into London?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2026 ==

Be careful with it especially if purchased online as someone recently posted of their partner getting stung for buying tickets that were cheaper in reverse and misusing them in the wrong order.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2026 ==

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[walkingsophie]

Yes, but how are you getting back as you suggest you are using both halves on the journey into London?

The tickets are valid to get to Waterloo and come back given you go via Twickenham in at least one direction.


Despite having experience with finding unusual tickets and routeings, I do not have experience writing penalty fare appeals, so I would appreciate help in that direction.

 

[sot]

Yes but in the first post you are saying you are using the outbound to get to an intermediate point, then the return to get from there to Waterloo? Is this half not then used on part of the journey in?

The itinerary seems to state in and out can be done without swapping in the middle?

Are you saying that the return ticket is effectively good for half of the outbound to London and then the full return back home as well, without any reuse of the outbound half, nor any double usage of the return half?

 

[walkingsophie]

Are you saying that the return ticket is effectively good for half of the outbound to London and then the full return back home as well, without any reuse of the outbound half, nor any double usage of the return half?

Yes, the itinerary I provided in the second image in post 5 shows that the return is valid on WIM -> WAT -> TWI -> UPH. Please do look at the valid routes of a ticket before posting complaining about it.


Anyways given we have established the validity of my tickets, how would I go about writing a penalty fare appeal?

 

[yorkie]

Yes, the itinerary I provided in the second image in post 5 shows that the return is valid on WIM -> WAT -> TWI -> UPH. Please do look at the valid routes of a ticket before posting complaining about it.


Anyways given we have established the validity of my tickets, how would I go about writing a penalty fare appeal?

It's down to you to come up with something. Don't use AI. People will suggest edits you may wish to make if you post a draft here (I'd suggest people should generally speaking not be actually re-wording any letters, but instead come up with suggested alterations).

 

[sot]

Apologies I did not wish you to back yourself into a corner with the TOC if there was some issue with the order of use or if the return half was used twice.

Alas it is a very nice use of the return half with a nice strategic throwaway of the outbound if needed.

 

[yorkie]

Providing you are using the ticket in accordance with the itinerary, and at no point is the 'outward' portion used in any part once you have started to use the 'return' portion, then you should be allowed to travel.

The easement is intended to allow "doubling back", and for use on other journeys where trains may pass through CLJ without stopping, so clearly you are not using this ticket on an intended routeing, or using the easement as intended. However, it's not any sort of offence to do what you are doing, and a PF should not be issued for this.

The ticket clearly should be re-routed "Not via London"; until then, it's valid, but some staff members aren't going to accept this fact. It's really as simple as that.

 

[walkingsophie]

It's down to you to come up with something. Don't use AI. People will suggest edits you may wish to make if you post a draft here (I'd suggest people should generally speaking not be actually re-wording any letters, but instead come up with suggested alterations).

I see, I will write a draft appeal tomorrow. Should I base the appeal on the simpler argument of Upper Halliford -> Hinchley Wood tickets being valid via Twickenham and Waterloo, or should I based the appeal on the actual journey I did via Wimbledon and using both tickets.

 

[sot]

Alas it is a very nice use of the return half with a nice strategic short stop of the outbound if needed.

You did proffer both? I suppose stating what was actually done is better in one way?

Should they decide to go back to check cctv and saw you getting off a service that that arguement was not actually valid for on just the outbound you don't have to explain it away then.

As usual though as Yorkie said itll probably take longer than you want to get them to listen to a reasoned argument.

I also wonder how much thought went into it from the revenue staff, probably not much more than " this is too cheap".

 

[walkingsophie]

After messing with the settings of the forum ticket website for about 10 minutes I managed to get an itinerary using the specific service I was on from Wimbledon -> Waterloo on the return leg of the journey, so I think I will make my appeal based on the actual journey I did unless there is a good reason not to.

 

[sot]

There is no fouling of the written restrictions is there? Such as departure times on or at Clapham? Seemingly not as not alighting or boarding.

Not valid on trains timed to arrive London Terminals after 04:29 and before 14:01.

Not valid to depart London Terminals after 04:29 and before 12:01, after 15:59 and before 19:01. Additionally, not valid to depart if boarding at the following stations:

• Clapham Junction: after 04:29 and before 12:01, after 15:59 and before 19:10
• Vauxhall: after 04:29 and before 12:01, after 15:59 and before 19:05

Are you happy losing access to it? it's a shame you don't have ???? An itinerary for it when you purchased it as it would be hard to reject at stage 1 appeal a supplied itinerary that gave what you did in fact do on the day.

 

[walkingsophie]

There is no fouling of the written restrictions is there? Such as departure times on or at Clapham? Seemingly not as not alighting or boarding.

Not valid on trains timed to arrive London Terminals after 04:29 and before 14:01.

Not valid to depart London Terminals after 04:29 and before 12:01, after 15:59 and before 19:01. Additionally, not valid to depart if boarding at the following stations:

• Clapham Junction: after 04:29 and before 12:01, after 15:59 and before 19:10
• Vauxhall: after 04:29 and before 12:01, after 15:59 and before 19:05

The generated itinerary does not foul this restriction as far as I understand. In my case, I did the part of the journey after my break at London Waterloo after the evening peak. Still good to check, but even if there were issues with the restriction that would be an excess fare not a penalty fare based on what I know.

 

[sot]

Again it was more a belt and braces, making sure the appeal argument is solid. Saving them coming back with some well you are correct at Waterloo but not valid as you pass through X at y time at some point on the journey etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2026 ==

Do you have any itinerary or was it a tvm/ticket office job?

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I suppose you will have to save up about 17 journey savings to pay for the penalty with no guarantee that it will not be fixed anyway, so attempt to get out of the penalty and hope that it doesn't change in the mean time?

 

[walkingsophie]

I used paper tickets.

 

[sot]

Can you get nre to give you anything remotely acceptable just to waterloo using the station pair?

That might be better grounds under the new conditions as that is immediately valid even if not purchased.

The wording kind of suggests any other itineraries have to be purchased.

 

[yorkie]

I used paper tickets.

The medium doesn't really matter; were you following an itinerary issued in conjunction with the ticket?

 

[walkingsophie]

Can you get nre to give you anything remotely acceptable just to waterloo using the station pair?

That might be better grounds under the new conditions as that is immediately valid even if not purchased.

The wording kind of suggests any other itineraries have to be purchased

I can get the National Rail Journey Planner to show me valid itineraries via London Waterloo, but only using the peak time/engineering work only Shepperton via Twickenham trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2026 ==

I managed to get it to show other trains via Waterloo that double back between Wimbledon and Clapham Junction. That is very strange

 

[sot]

Is there another via point that could work to skew it into Waterloo rather than Waterloo itself? I am not au fait with the area really.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2026 ==

I would say if you do not have an itinerary on purchase finding something on NRE remotely near what you did that can get to Waterloo for the price you paid at roughly the correct time

This should be optimal for the first appeal as this itinerary under current conditions proves the validity of a route without having to stretch to talking about routeing guide or easements, and provided the time seems acceptable for when the penalty was given it might shoo them away.

 

[walkingsophie]

The medium doesn't really matter; were you following an itinerary issued in conjunction with the ticket?

No, I bought the ticket from a ticket machine, and those do not issue itineraries as far as I am aware

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2026 ==

I think this should work for my appeal? I do not know why the national rail website shows it though given that is clearly invalid via the routeing guide, but given that they do show it I guess I will start buying the tickets online.

Journey Planner | Official Train Ticket Info | National Rail

Plan your journey and buy train tickets for all rail links with our national Journey Planner. Check departure times and prices.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

How would I go about putting that into my appeal? Should I just do a printout with the link and a few screenshots? It is quite unclear to me how you are supposed to show itineraries in a PF appeal

 

[sot]

Can you get it with the correct origin and destination as per the ticket?

NRE is pure garbage, I've had it give me contactless fares on circuitous routes that go very far out of London and come back on the same line. BUT the new edition of the conditions is terribly written and says it it comes up on NRE as a single ticket itinerary it is valid

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2026 ==

And excellent idea in the future, especially now is buy anything remotely unusual with an itinerary. If you can at the correct time. However, Some people read the new conditions to mean it proves not only that specific journey at that time but the route in a general sense.

 

[walkingsophie]

Can you get it with the correct origin and destination as per the ticket?

Yes, the following search gives itineraries valid via London Waterloo using the exact tickets I have used

Journey Planner | Official Train Ticket Info | National Rail

Plan your journey and buy train tickets for all rail links with our national Journey Planner. Check departure times and prices.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[sot]

That should be sufficient under new rules to show route is valid.

Whether it will stay valid or not time will tell.

That is also a bit better that they need to chase and figure out the error why it's wrong rather than be told why by yourself.

 

[cornishjohn]

This does look like excellent rules abuse! (and expect Yorkie to be right about the routeing changing to NOT LONDON), BUT, as I see it the double back between ClaphamJ/Waterloo is only valid if you are actually travelling the Richmond route (Maps TW+EF). Otherwise there is a double back past New Malden (Map SU), and having chosen your mapped route you cannot switch...

Edit: I don't see how using map SU even allows you to get to Wimbledon...