125mph non tilt live on WCML

[Markuk]

So I was on the 1816 Euston to Wolverhampton service tonight which i noticed in RTT was pathed as a 125mph 80x service. I thought i would measure some speeds on the journey and sure enough we did get up to almost 125 on some of the straight bits, see pics.

Shame it was a 5 car service when it should've been 10. Was rammed, fortunately I got on early enough to get a seat. Seat reservations were unavailable and several people had reservations for carriages that didn't exist. Train manager apologised twice and asked people to complain to the company and said it keeps happening and if enough people complain they may fix it, which I thought was honest and frank.

 

[gazthomas]

The train manager as at least honest and optimistic

 

[Toby268]

MU speeds allowing enhanced line speeds at certain points went live in December for 805/7s.

 

[Markuk]

Wonder if the 730s or 350s could be uprated to 125... I've been on a 730 where the GPS speed showed 112 before

 

[swt_passenger]

Wonder if the 730s or 350s could be uprated to 125... I've been on a 730 where the GPS speed showed 112 before

I believe 730s and 350s cannot do 125 because they have end gangways.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I believe 730s and 350s cannot do 125 because they have end gangways.

Isn't it a rule about having a non passenger zone at the front and rear of units allowed 125 mph? Hence why Voyagers and to an extent 80x are a bit wasteful of space. Older trains either had two power cars or an engine and DVT.

 

[CarrotPie]

Wonder if the 730s or 350s could be uprated to 125... I've been on a 730 where the GPS speed showed 112 before

I believe 730s and 350s cannot do 125 because they have end gangways.

Trains also have to be tested at 110% (IIRC) of their maximum speed for safety reasons. So 730s would have already been tested at 121 mph, but uprating them to 125 mph would require testing at 137.5 mph, which they might not be able to achieve well enough for the testing. There are probably also other crashworthiness requirements that they would need to meet, and perhaps end gangways are an issue as well - 387s were only ever allowed to do 110 mph.

Happy to be corrected if any of that is wrong.

 

[swt_passenger]

Isn't it a rule about having a non passenger zone at the front and rear of units allowed 125 mph? Hence why Voyagers and to an extent 80x are a bit wasteful of space. Older trains either had two power cars or an engine and DVT.

The ‘non passenger’ thing (in the way it was interpreted at the time by Virgin) was removed from group standards some time after the Voyagers entered service, IIRC from discussions here a long time back. I believe the present rules are much less explicit. How do 395s do it, I’ve not been on one.

 

[CarrotPie]

The ‘non passenger’ thing (in the way it was interpreted at the time by Virgin) was removed from group standards some time after the Voyagers entered service, IIRC from discussions here a long time back. I believe the present rules are much less explicit. How do 395s do it, I’ve not been on one.

The cabs of 395s aren't much longer than necessary (obviously they're pretty pointy). Immediately behind the cab door is the first set of external passengers doors and immediately behind that is the first row of seats.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I seem to remember class 373 Eurostar sets were only allowed 110mph on the ECML when they ran domestic Leeds services.
So no guarantee that high speed stock can run at 125mph on classic lines.
Something to do with OHLE power limitation I think.

 

[bleeder4]

HSTs should soon be allowed at 125mph on the WCML as well. LSL are running a 125mph test with their blue Pullman set next month (for which they are selling tickets).

 

[edwin_m]

The cabs of 395s aren't much longer than necessary (obviously they're pretty pointy). Immediately behind the cab door is the first set of external passengers doors and immediately behind that is the first row of seats.

395s only do high speed on HS1 under the protection of continuous cab signalling, no level crossings, all structures built to modern standards of derailment containment etc. So much less hazard than on a classic route.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

395s only do high speed on HS1 under the protection of continuous cab signalling, no level crossings, all structures built to modern standards of derailment containment etc.

What's their maximum speed allowed on HS1? For that matter how fast are they allowed to go on the third rail in Kent?

 

[hexagon789]

Wonder if the 730s or 350s could be uprated to 125... I've been on a 730 where the GPS speed showed 112 before

I believe 730s and 350s cannot do 125 because they have end gangways.

190km/h (118mph) is the maximum in the standards before impact absorption requirements increase.

Isn't it a rule about having a non passenger zone at the front and rear of units allowed 125 mph? Hence why Voyagers and to an extent 80x are a bit wasteful of space. Older trains either had two power cars or an engine and DVT.

I believe that has been significantly relaxed since the Voyager classes and Pendolinos were built.

What's their maximum speed allowed on HS1? For that matter how fast are they allowed to go on the third rail in Kent?

225km/h on HS1; 100mph on third-rail

 

[Failed Unit]

What's their maximum speed allowed on HS1? For that matter how fast are they allowed to go on the third rail in Kent?

Someone will correct me if wrong but 140mph.

I think they probably spend more time actually on the 3rd Rail

London - Margate for example is all 3rd Rail after Ashford (which by time the majority of the journey)
London - Faversham (and beyond) is also signifcant times on the 3rd Rail
The final route via Dover is also all 3rd rail after Ashford.

They don't get to 100mph much away from the 3rd rail as you will see these are not really straight routes and have lots of stations. The Faversham route in particular.

 

[voyagerdude220]

HSTs should soon be allowed at 125mph on the WCML as well. LSL are running a 125mph test with their blue Pullman set next month (for which they are selling tickets).

Do you have a link for this please? I've googled and can't find anything.

 

[43096]

Do you have a link for this please? I've googled and can't find anything.

Midland Pullman | Luxury UK railway journeys

Where would you like to visit? Have a look at our latest selection of trips and tours, which cover coasts and castles, lakes and cities.

midlandpullman.com

 

[voyagerdude220]

Midland Pullman | Luxury UK railway journeys

Where would you like to visit? Have a look at our latest selection of trips and tours, which cover coasts and castles, lakes and cities.

midlandpullman.com

Thank you.

 

[jfollows]

£400 for two for an hour in London …. nice idea, but I don’t think so!
Good luck anyway.

 

[CarrotPie]

190km/h (118mph) is the maximum in the standards before impact absorption requirements increase.

Uprate them to 115 mph, maybe?

 

[Toby268]

It would be worthwhile having the LNWR services being able to follow MU speeds from Queen’s Park to Wembley so they can get up to 110mph quicker. To me that’s the best option, spending as much as they would have to to get them up to any higher speed is likely not cost efficient for minimal time savings, there isn’t actually a whole lot of 120/125 MU limits and given a lot of the faster LNWR services stop at Watford or are on slow lines stopping at stations on the Trent Valley.

 

[gazthomas]

MU speeds allowing enhanced line speeds at certain points went live in December for 805/7s.

For say Euston to Crewe how much time is saved? Thanks

 

[Toby268]

For say Euston to Crewe how much time is saved? Thanks

I do not have a figure, however the Chester/holyhead services to London and Liverpool to London services are notably performing better, specifically at recovering lost minutes and maintaining timings.

 

[AM9]

It would be worthwhile having the LNWR services being able to follow MU speeds from Queen’s Park to Wembley so they can get up to 110mph quicker. To me that’s the best option, spending as much as they would have to to get them up to any higher speed is likely not cost efficient for minimal time savings, there isn’t actually a whole lot of 120/125 MU limits and given a lot of the faster LNWR services stop at Watford or are on slow lines stopping at stations on the Trent Valley.

Looking at RTT, a typical non-peak LNR Birmingham service takes to the fasts at Camden junction and regains the down slow at Ledburn junction, - a distance of about 36 miles, takes just under 23 minutes to pass from Camden Junction to Ledburn Junction. A Pendolino over the same stretch of the down fast line takes about 20 minutes. Given that the LNR train will need to slow down to (guess) 60mph to cross over to the down slow at Ledburn junction, in practice there would be little, if anything, to gain from extending the 730's maximum speed over 110mph.

 

[gazthomas]

I do not have a figure, however the Chester/holyhead services to London and Liverpool to London services are notably performing better, specifically at recovering lost minutes and maintaining timings.

That's good news

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

HSTs should soon be allowed at 125mph on the WCML as well. LSL are running a 125mph test with their blue Pullman set next month (for which they are selling tickets).

If I've interpreted the Sectional Appendix properly, MU 125mph speeds on the WCML south of Crewe total 15 miles. On the Down Fast that's 4 miles each Harrow-Bushey and Tring-Cheddington, and 7 miles Shilton-Nuneaton.
I haven't checked the Up line, but there's 4 miles of MU 125mph from Basford Hall to Madeley. There's plenty of 115/120mph as well, eg the new TV4 section is MU 115.
The Lumo Stirling 222s should be able to use MU speeds too, when they start.

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional%20appendix%20full%20PDFs%20December%2025/London%20North%20Western%20(South)%20Sectional%20Appendix%20December%202025.pdf

 

[Russel]

Looking at RTT, a typical non-peak LNR Birmingham service takes to the fasts at Camden junction and regains the down slow at Ledburn junction, - a distance of about 36 miles, takes just under 23 minutes to pass from Camden Junction to Ledburn Junction. A Pendolino over the same stretch of the down fast line takes about 20 minutes. Given that the LNR train will need to slow down to (guess) 60mph to cross over to the down slow at Ledburn junction, in practice there would be little, if anything, to gain from extending the 730's maximum speed over 110mph.

To add to this, once the 730's go north of Rugby, they are stopping every 10 or so minutes, so I'd agree with you that there would be very little gain.

 

[Bald Rick]

HSTs should soon be allowed at 125mph on the WCML as well. LSL are running a 125mph test with their blue Pullman set next month (for which they are selling tickets).

There’s not a lot of 125mph on the MU profile, but they will go above 110moh, yes.

For say Euston to Crewe how much time is saved? Thanks

About 4 mins, depending on the stopping pattern

Given that the LNR train will need to slow down to (guess) 60mph to cross over to the down slow at Ledburn junction, in practice there would be little, if anything, to gain from extending the 730's maximum speed over 110mph.

They’d save 2 mins, which is very worthwhile; do that with three paths an hour and it’s another two paths freed up.

However it won’t happen as others have explained.

 

[Tilting007]

HSTs should soon be allowed at 125mph on the WCML as well. LSL are running a 125mph test with their blue Pullman set next month (for which they are selling tickets).

The NMT can run at MU and the LSL will be the same, so not much - circa 30 miles total of 125mph between Euston and Weaver Jn.
Certainly plenty of 115/120..

 

[Tilting007]

If I've interpreted the Sectional Appendix properly, MU 125mph speeds on the WCML south of Crewe total 15 miles. On the Down Fast that's 4 miles each Harrow-Bushey and Tring-Cheddington, and 7 miles Shilton-Nuneaton.
I haven't checked the Up line, but there's 4 miles of MU 125mph from Basford Hall to Madeley. There's plenty of 115/120mph as well, eg the new TV4 section is MU 115.
The Lumo Stirling 222s should be able to use MU speeds too, when they start.

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional%20appendix%20full%20PDFs%20December%2025/London%20North%20Western%20(South)%20Sectional%20Appendix%20December%202025.pdf

LUMO requires a SoC for MU running. Currently limited to a test SoC and 110mph PS max speed.