Southeastern services to City Thameslink station.

[westcoaster]

I have always wondered if there's ever been a situation where a Southeastern train (from London Bridge) has had to be diverted to Blackfriars post-rebuild.

This is held route knowledge - pre rebuild trains during peak hours would terminate at Cannon St and reverse to Blackfriars then **** off somewhere else presumably down to Grove Park or Victoria. This isn't feasible any more and it's part of the reason why Southeastern has reduced the amount of trains to London during peak hours (and of course "Covid"), bc you can't access the terminating platforms from London Bridge anymore and they were repositioned anyway.

So I wonder if a Southeastern train has ever touched the through platforms at Blackfriars in recent years - and I have seen the stopping markers for Southeastern stock at Blackfriars (on plats 1&2 obvs). If there was some sort of strange situation where a Southeastern train has to be diverted to Blackfriars and can't get back to London Bridge, one might expect the next thing to happen is reverse at the Smithfield Cs at City Thameslink then head back. Or reverse at Blackfriars. Don't think this would have even happened late at night since Thameslink run (or attempt to) overnight services

View attachment 188858

No Southeastern drivers have the route knowledge between Blackfriars and London bridge, all Southeastern services come via Elephant and castle.

Yes it has happened numerous times where a southeastern has been signalled into the northbound through line (and to make it worse one time a thameslink was signalled right behind it).
Class 465/6, 376 ans 375 are no longer allowed north of Blackfriars ( if you look there is a sign with a big red Cross an wording). This came into affect when the OHLE was extended into CityThameslink station, due to cleance issues @Supercoss might have a better date range.

 

[Horizon22]

But the passenger number rise is from people going from London to the coast via Tonbridge and Ashford. I'm one of them, simply because once you've done HS1, you've done it. But on the classic line there's always something to see.

Yes, there’s a bit of both though. People preferring to take services cheaper services from Charing Cross / Victoria, as well as intermediates no long changing at Ashford for HS1.

Going via the Chatham Main Line means you only get about 20 minutes of High Speed anyway, whilst Victoria to Rochester can be less than 40 minutes.

 

[Mattplans]

No Southeastern drivers have the route knowledge between Blackfriars and London bridge, all Southeastern services come via Elephant and castle.

Their official route knowledge pdf suggests they do - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ.../3/Route and Traction Knowledge by Depot.pdf? issued in 2021 after the rebuild

Faversham, Gillingham, ramsgate & Ashford appear like this as opposed to the Grove Pk depot which makes it clear the route to blackfriars is not held knowledge.

 

[westcoaster]

Their official route knowledge pdf suggests they do - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/list_of_all_driver_depots_and_gu_3/response/2003006/attach/3/Route and Traction Knowledge by Depot.pdf? issued in 2021 after the rebuild

Faversham, Gillingham, ramsgate & Ashford appear like this View attachment 188978 as opposed to the Grove Pk depot which makes it clear the route to blackfriars is not held knowledge. View attachment 188980

I think that is incorrect, just double checked on the drivers route knowledge thread.
And it doesn't appear there.
I'm 100% sure that TL drivers (select depots) are the only TOC drivers to sign the Snow hill spurs.

 

[Mattplans]

I think that is incorrect, just double checked on the drivers route knowledge thread.
And it doesn't appear there.
I'm 100% sure that TL drivers (select depots) are the only TOC drivers to sign the Snow hill spurs.

As this seems to be an official pdf by the company, I think it's more likely that it's accurate compared to the drivers route thread which sees contributions and guesses

 

[PZ 08895]

But can the sidings take a 12-car 700?

No, Smithfield sidings cannot take a 12-car / Full Length Class 700. If a northbound trains fails to change from 3rd rail to OLE at City Thameslink, it should go forward on the 3rd rail to Farringdon, reverse in Platform 4 and set back using the cross-over just South of Farringdon. Similarly if a southbound train fails to switch-over to the 3rd rail at Farringdon, it goes forward to City Thameslink Platform 2 using the OLE, reverses wrong line and goes over the same cross-over on the approach to Farringdon.

 

[Concorde9289]

I vaguely remember one Sunday when Hayes trains were diverted into Blackfriars, instead of taking the direct route via London Bridge they ran via Loughborough Junction and Nunhead before joining the usual route at Lewisham. This might've explain drivers' route knowledge, but I honestly can't remember which section of line was closed.

 

[Russel]

Really interesting thread, the Thameslink core has such a fascinating history.

 

[Surreytraveller]

As this seems to be an official pdf by the company, I think it's more likely that it's accurate compared to the drivers route thread which sees contributions and guesses

Official documentation can be wrong or not kept up to date.
Pre-2018 when Thameslink trains on the Kent side were driven by Southeastern drivers, they would sign both companies routes. I suspect the pdf just hasn't been accurately updated.

 

[londontransit]

Recently whilst on a Thameslink train through the core I spotted a large Network Rail team working on the tracks and signalling infrastructure at Smithfield Sidings.

Clearly its still being maintained for whenever the sidings need to be pressed into use.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Smithfield Sidings are used on a daily basis

 

[cduncan]

Did anyone have the timings/booked stops before the services ceased in 2009? The only photo I can find of it other than Blackfriars is at Elephant & Castle.

Interestingly the announcement files do have City Thameslink (STB_CTK.WAV) but I don't think there was ever a video recording of one.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Did anyone have the timings/booked stops before the services ceased in 2009? The only photo I can find of it other than Blackfriars is at Elephant & Castle.

Interestingly the announcement files do have City Thameslink (STB_CTK.WAV) but I don't think there was ever a video recording of one.

Try looking here: https://web.archive.org/web/20090215001941/http://southeasternrailway.co.uk/timetables.php

How did you find the announcement files?

 

[cduncan]

Try looking here: https://web.archive.org/web/20090215001941/http://southeasternrailway.co.uk/timetables.php

How did you find the announcement files?

Got it, thanks.

Up workings:
Sevenoaks (0740), Bat & Ball (0743), Otford (0746), Shoreham (0749), Eynsford (0752), Swanley (0758), St Mary Cray (0802), Bromley South (0809), Ravensbourne (0812), Beckenham Hill (0814), Bellingham (0816), Catford (0818), Denmark Hill (0826), Elephant & Castle (0836), London Blackfriars (0841) and City Thameslink (0845)

Sevenoaks (0822), Bat & Ball (0825), Otford (0828), Shoreham (0831), Eynsford (0834), Swanley (0840), St Mary Cray (0844), Bickley (0849), Bromley South (0852), Shortlands (0854), Bellingham (0900), Catford (0902), Peckham Rye (0908), Denmark Hill (0911), Elephant & Castle (0919), London Blackfriars (0926) and City Thameslink (0930)

Down workings:
City Thameslink (1707), London Blackfriars (1710), Elephant & Castle (1714), Denmark Hill (1720), Peckham Rye (1724), Nunhead (1726), Crofton Park (1729), Catford (1732), Bellingham (1735), Beckenham Hill (1737), Ravensbourne (1739), Shortlands (1741), Bromley South (1746), Bickley (1749), St Mary Cray (1756), Swanley (1801), Eynsford (1806), Shoreham (1809), Otford (1813), Bat & Ball (1816) and Sevenoaks (1819)

City Thameslink (1747), London Blackfriars (1750), Elephant & Castle (1754), Loughborough Junction (1758), Herne Hill (1804), West Dulwich (1808), Sydenham Hill (1810), Penge East (1813), Kent House (1814) and Beckenham Junction (1817)

As with announcement files: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/on_board_train_announcements_and#incoming-1931321

 

[Class 466]

I have always wondered if there's ever been a situation where a Southeastern train (from London Bridge) has had to be diverted to Blackfriars post-rebuild.

Happened to me once, early on post rebuild, but before May 2018

 

[westcoaster]

Happened to me once, early on post rebuild, but before May 2018

View attachment 197287

Although no official documentation SE services are kept to platform 3 and 4 at all times. This was after a couple of occasions where they were signalled into Platform 2 erroneously. On both occasions a 700 was pulled up behind and blocked the job, as Se can't go north of Blackfriars. The 700's had to shunt back towards Elephant ( it took the driver nearly 10 minutes to change ends due to loading).

 

[Mattplans]

Happened to me once, early on post rebuild, but before May 2018

View attachment 197287

Was it diverted from London Bridge? How did it reach the bays

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Int

Got it, thanks.

Up workings:
Sevenoaks (0740), Bat & Ball (0743), Otford (0746), Shoreham (0749), Eynsford (0752), Swanley (0758), St Mary Cray (0802), Bromley South (0809), Ravensbourne (0812), Beckenham Hill (0814), Bellingham (0816), Catford (0818), Denmark Hill (0826), Elephant & Castle (0836), London Blackfriars (0841) and City Thameslink (0845)

Sevenoaks (0822), Bat & Ball (0825), Otford (0828), Shoreham (0831), Eynsford (0834), Swanley (0840), St Mary Cray (0844), Bickley (0849), Bromley South (0852), Shortlands (0854), Bellingham (0900), Catford (0902), Peckham Rye (0908), Denmark Hill (0911), Elephant & Castle (0919), London Blackfriars (0926) and City Thameslink (0930)

Down workings:
City Thameslink (1707), London Blackfriars (1710), Elephant & Castle (1714), Denmark Hill (1720), Peckham Rye (1724), Nunhead (1726), Crofton Park (1729), Catford (1732), Bellingham (1735), Beckenham Hill (1737), Ravensbourne (1739), Shortlands (1741), Bromley South (1746), Bickley (1749), St Mary Cray (1756), Swanley (1801), Eynsford (1806), Shoreham (1809), Otford (1813), Bat & Ball (1816) and Sevenoaks (1819)

City Thameslink (1747), London Blackfriars (1750), Elephant & Castle (1754), Loughborough Junction (1758), Herne Hill (1804), West Dulwich (1808), Sydenham Hill (1810), Penge East (1813), Kent House (1814) and Beckenham Junction (1817)

As with announcement files: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/on_board_train_announcements_and#incoming-1931321

Interesting how the UP Catfords seem to be semi-fast

 

[30907]

Int

Interesting how the UP Catfords seem to be semi-fast

From memory they were duplicated from Bromley South or thereabouts (a longstanding practice).

 

[Bald Rick]

Was it diverted from London Bridge? How did it reach the bays

By levitation, evidently! For a while I wondered if that was in P1 and reversing there (to the chagrin of every southbound Thameslink commuter), but it’s clearly P4, which means it didn’t come from London Bridge. At least not by leaving London Bridge in a westerly direction.

 

[Mattplans]

By levitation, evidently! For a while I wondered if that was in P1 and reversing there (to the chagrin of every southbound Thameslink commuter), but it’s clearly P4, which means it dodnt come from London Bridge. At least not by leaving London Bridge in a westerly direction.

But since it was Charing X bound, I imagine it was diverted from around Lewisham or maybe as even far back as Orpington

 

[Bald Rick]

But since it was Charing X bound, I imagine it was diverted from around Lewisham or maybe as even far back as Orpington

Yes that’s plausible.

 

[Class 466]

Yes that’s plausible.

Apologies, I misread the original post - this was diverted from Orpington towards Blackfriars.

 

[Mattplans]

In response to the original post, I have come across this which answers the queries about when/why they stopped going to Ctk.

Southeastern changes for Blackfriars Bays re-opening

Just seen this on NR's track access application page, we were discussing it a couple of weeks ago based on journey planner queries, so this should confirm what was worked out then. Confirms as discussed at the same time that the services that reversed at City Thameslink early on weekday...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[CarrotPie]

Class 465/6, 376 ans 375 are no longer allowed north of Blackfriars ( if you look there is a sign with a big red Cross an wording). This came into affect when the OHLE was extended into CityThameslink station, due to cleance issues @Supercoss might have a better date range.

Are 377s and 387s still allowed?

 

[westcoaster]

Are 377s and 387s still allowed?

Yes they are still route cleared.

Regular runs to and from Hornsey for the 387's.

 

[CarrotPie]

Yes they are still route cleared.

Huh. So then how come 375s aren't cleared? They're basically the same as 377s...

 

[SE%Traveller]

Weren't 377 and 378 cleared as they were dual voltage and used on the Thameslink route?. Don't think 375s ever were

 

[CarrotPie]

Weren't 377 and 378 cleared as they were dual voltage and used on the Thameslink route?. Don't think 375s ever were

387s, not 378s

375/6s have pantographs fitted - no idea if they've ever been used in passenger service nor if they've ever gone north of Blackfriars. That's why I'm curious.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

387s, not 378s

375/6s have pantographs fitted - no idea if they've ever been used in passenger service nor if they've ever gone north of Blackfriars. That's why I'm curious.

I remember reading somewhere on these forums that the 375s were built for Thameslink 2000 in mind