Southeastern services to City Thameslink station.

[stadler]

I seem to remember that Southeastern used to run some peak hour services in to City Thameslink station? Does anyone know when this ended? I am thinking the late 2000s or early 2010s but can not remember the exact year?

Where did they reverse? Did they just simply terminate in the two in the two platforms and use the crossover to the South of the station? Did any ever get up to Farringdon as i know the third rail extends up to there?

Also can anyone remember if it was only 465s and 466s that were cleared? Or were there any occasions where 375s and 376s and 508s went there? Did any of the slam door CEP or CIG or VEP stock ever get there?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Reversal would have been in Smithfield sidings between City and Farringdon, on the northbound side of the line.

I don't think slam door stock was permitted to City.

 

[stadler]

Reversal would have been in Smithfield sidings between City and Farringdon, on the northbound side of the line.

I don't think slam door stock was permitted to City.

What happened to Smithfield Sidings after these services went? Travelling on a train from City Thameslink to Farringdon i can not recall seeing any place where the sidings could have been? Does anyone have a map or photos of where the sidings were?

 

[dodecahedron67]

What happened to Smithfield Sidings after these services went? Travelling on a train from City Thameslink to Farringdon i can not recall seeing any place where the sidings could have been? Does anyone have a map or photos of where the sidings were?

Sidings are still there, just north of City TL - visible from any Northbound train easily and with a bit of difficulty from a Southbound one. Look to the left in the direction of travel Northbound…

 

[stadler]

Sidings are still there, just north of City TL - visible from any Northbound train easily and with a bit of difficulty from a Southbound one. Look to the left in the direction of travel Northbound…

Ah thank you. I will have to look more carefully next time on a train around there. Looking on the Open Train Times map it seems that the sidings are still fully usable and signalled. So i wonder if any trains have used the Smithfield Sidings since the Southeastern services ended?

Also interesting to note that there is no crossover North of City Thameslink station. So this means that the Southeastern services would have had to use the Northbound platform for Southbound services. I imagine this could cause congestion when anything was delayed. Unless perhaps there used to be a crossover and it was recently removed?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Also interesting to note that there is no crossover North of City Thameslink station. So this means that the Southeastern services would have had to use the Northbound platform for Southbound services. I imagine this could cause congestion when anything was delayed. Unless perhaps there used to be a crossover and it was recently removed?

Looking at TrackMaps (Third edition) from 2008, there was indeed once a crossover just to the North of the City Thameslink platforms, which would have allowed a train out of the Smithfield Sidings, briefly onto the (normally) Northbound track, and then across over to the Southbound platform at City Thameslink.

 

[Magdalia]

So i wonder if any trains have used the Smithfield Sidings since the Southeastern services ended?

Smithfield Sidings play a critical part in Thameslink core resilience. Northbound trains do the dc->ac change at City: if the unit has an ac fault then it can go into Smithfield Sidings on dc to reverse.

I seem to remember that Southeastern used to run some peak hour services in to City Thameslink station? Does anyone know when this ended? I am thinking the late 2000s or early 2010s but can not remember the exact year?

The City terminating/starting trains did continue for a short while after the big March 2009 changes when Moorgate and the Blackfriars bays were closed, but then got extended through the core. I can't date the change exactly as I don't have a complete set of Thameslink timetables. I'm guessing this was because of availability of dual voltage EMUs but I can't remember the details.

 

[43096]

Smithfield Sidings play a critical part in Thameslink core resilience. Northbound trains do the dc->ac change at City: if the unit has an ac fault then it can go into Smithfield Sidings on dc to reverse.

But can the sidings take a 12-car 700?

 

[frankmoh]

Which of Southeastern's rolling stock at the time would have been cleared to go underground?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I saw a Thameslink train in Smithfield sidings the other day. I’ve also seen a YouTube video of a networker at city thameslink and a cab ride of one terminating at the sidings

 

[Peter Mugridge]

To confirm what some others are saying above, yes - they're used regularly. I see 700s in there a few times each year. I would imagine that every so often they need to do refresher moves into them for the drivers' route competency even when there is no disruption?

 

[frankmoh]

I saw a Thameslink train in Smithfield sidings the other day. I’ve also seen a YouTube video of a networker at city thameslink and a cab ride of one terminating at the sidings

Do you have that video by any chance?

 

[SE%Traveller]

I think the Networkers though to City Thameslink ceased when the old Blackfriars platforms 1,2 &3 were taken out of commission in March 2009 at the start of the rebuild. Before then they were used daily by some of the Peak Sevenoaks Services. it was supposed to replace those y Holborn Viaduct Services.

I think the outer of the two sidings can fit a 12 car, but it blocks access to the other (and possibly it's use too, I can't recall)

 

[Magdalia]

I think the Networkers though to City Thameslink ceased when the old Blackfriars platforms 1,2 &3 were taken out of commission in March 2009 at the start of the rebuild. Before then they were used daily by some of the Peak Sevenoaks Services. it was supposed to replace those y Holborn Viaduct Services.

The May 2009 timetable had 0740/0752 Sevenoaks to City Thameslink and 1733/1821 City Thameslink to Sevenoaks.

By May 2010 they were running through to/from Kentish Town.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Do you have that video by any chance?

Here you go. Shame about the sad music.

Here's the one of a Networker going through CT:

 

[Peter Mugridge]

By May 2010 they were running through to/from Kentish Town.

Would those not have been 319s rather than 465s operating those?

 

[Mattplans]

I have always wondered if there's ever been a situation where a Southeastern train (from London Bridge) has had to be diverted to Blackfriars post-rebuild.

This is held route knowledge - pre rebuild trains during peak hours would terminate at Cannon St and reverse to Blackfriars then **** off somewhere else presumably down to Grove Park or Victoria. This isn't feasible any more and it's part of the reason why Southeastern has reduced the amount of trains to London during peak hours (and of course "Covid"), bc you can't access the terminating platforms from London Bridge anymore and they were repositioned anyway.

So I wonder if a Southeastern train has ever touched the through platforms at Blackfriars in recent years - and I have seen the stopping markers for Southeastern stock at Blackfriars (on plats 1&2 obvs). If there was some sort of strange situation where a Southeastern train has to be diverted to Blackfriars and can't get back to London Bridge, one might expect the next thing to happen is reverse at the Smithfield Cs at City Thameslink then head back. Or reverse at Blackfriars. Don't think this would have even happened late at night since Thameslink run (or attempt to) overnight services

 

[frankmoh]

Here you go. Shame about the sad music.

Here's the one of a Networker going through CT:

Thank you.

I am now quite confused as to the rules on underground (not Tube!) trains are. The Class 313, 319 and 717 all have doors on the front for emergency exits (as do Tube and DLR trains).

However, the 700 and 465/466 (did they ever do a 6/10 car train to CT?) do not have them. Is City Thameslink not deep enough underground for these sorts of rules to be enforced?

 

[30907]

This is held route knowledge - pre rebuild trains during peak hours would terminate at Cannon St and reverse to Blackfriars then **** off somewhere else presumably down to Grove Park or Victoria.

Or Stewarts Lane.

This isn't feasible any more and it's part of the reason why Southeastern has reduced the amount of trains to London during peak hours (and of course "Covid"),

It isn't feasible because of the post 2018 TL timetable; it isn't necessary either because there is ample capacity through LBG for contra-flow traffic.
The pre-covid peak service into/out of Cannon St. wasn't significantly thinner than in the 80s-90s except on the Orpington/Sevenoaks route, and that had already been cut back.

 

[Magdalia]

Would those not have been 319s rather than 465s operating those?

Yes. What I can't remember is why those trains were still class 465s and only running to/from City Thameslink between March 2009 and May 2010.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

There is a Nick Winfield cab ride video floating about on YouTube somewhere, riding one of the evening peak Stewart’s Lane-Cannon Street ECS moves on a rake of EPB stock, probably about 1990. (ISTR at least some of it is from the rear cab.) Presumably done to film the rare curves at Loughborough Jn (West-North) and the reversal in the turnback sidings just outside Blackfriars and then the curve round from Metropolitan Jn into Cannon St.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Would those not have been 319s rather than 465s operating those?

Yes, the Kentish town trains were essentially a Southeastern/Thameslink 'code share' to allow the City Thameslink terminators to be withdrawn during the Thameslink rebuilding. There was a lot of debate about what the post-rebuild service would be (or more specifically which services would be terminated at Blackfriars and no longer run through the core). In the end, it was most of the Catford Loop Thameslink services as well as the peak hour Beckenham Junction trains (which reverted to Southeastern Networkers once the 2018 timetable went live) that ended up terminating at Blackfriars - Networkers are now banned from the core.

 

[Mattplans]

Or Stewarts Lane.

I wasn't aware Southeastern used Stewarts Lane so recently. Were trains maintained there or just stabled until the evening peak? It's not still used is it?
I'd dispute the claim of "ample capacity" - services are increasingly approaching overcrowding limits and the company is unable to run more services. Part of the motivation in extending the Bakerloo line to Hayes is supposed to be for freeing up the 4(+) paths to Charing X currently occupied by Hayes trains so Southeastern can run more trains from Tonbridge - this doesn't exactly scream "ample capacity", why can't that just be done now if there's "ample capacity".

 

[Sad Sprinter]

There is a Nick Winfield cab ride video floating about on YouTube somewhere, riding one of the evening peak Stewart’s Lane-Cannon Street ECS moves on a rake of EPB stock, probably about 1990. (ISTR at least some of it is from the rear cab.) Presumably done to film the rare curves at Loughborough Jn (West-North) and the reversal in the turnback sidings just outside Blackfriars and then the curve round from Metropolitan Jn into Cannon St.

I think I might have seen that. I deffo

I wasn't aware Southeastern used Stewarts Lane so recently. Were trains maintained there or just stabled until the evening peak? It's not still used is it?
I'd dispute the claim of "ample capacity" - services are increasingly approaching overcrowding limits and the company is unable to run more services. Part of the motivation in extending the Bakerloo line to Hayes is supposed to be for freeing up the 4(+) paths to Charing X currently occupied by Hayes trains so Southeastern can run more trains from Tonbridge - this doesn't exactly scream "ample capacity", why can't that just be done now if there's "ample capacity".

Yes the Tonbridge trains usually seem empty. Or at least become empty after Sevenoaks. Perhaps there’s demand for a fast service again to the coast? I have noticed on that Rail Data site there’s been an increase in traffic on the classic services from London to the coast after the pandemic. Whether it’s a cost of living thing or terminal preference I don’t know.

 

[Bald Rick]

But can the sidings take a 12-car 700?

8 car only. Even then, the north end of the train is a matter of metres from the south end of Farringdon platform 4.

 

[43096]

8 car only. Even then, the north end of the train is a matter of metres from the south end of Farringdon platform 4.

Ta. That's what I thought, that it was a tight 8-car, so of lesser utility for reversals/getting a set out of the way.

 

[DerekC]

Thank you.

I am now quite confused as to the rules on underground (not Tube!) trains are. The Class 313, 319 and 717 all have doors on the front for emergency exits (as do Tube and DLR trains).

However, the 700 and 465/466 (did they ever do a 6/10 car train to CT?) do not have them. Is City Thameslink not deep enough underground for these sorts of rules to be enforced?

There isn't a hard and fast rule. There was a very long debate at the specification stage about whether the Class 700s should have end doors, balancing the very short lengths of tunnel where side access to the train isn't available against the major advantages to cab design of not having them. It went on alongside an even longer and more acrid debate (between TOCs mainly) about whether the trains should be single unit or be produced in subsets of the total 12 cars. A combination of 4-car and 6-car units with through connections was the favoured option with many. AFAIR, once single units had been decided on, it helped swing the argument in favour of no emergency doors in the end, because no corridor connection meant a possible wide, unobstructed cab with an excellent view for the driver and there are few places where a 12-car unit wouldn't have a substantial number of its passenger doors accessible. The analysis was lengthy and complicated and I certainly can't remember the detail, for anyone who wants to argue it was wrong!!

 

[Horizon22]

So I wonder if a Southeastern train has ever touched the through platforms at Blackfriars in recent years - and I have seen the stopping markers for Southeastern stock at Blackfriars (on plats 1&2 obvs). If there was some sort of strange situation where a Southeastern train has to be diverted to Blackfriars and can't get back to London Bridge, one might expect the next thing to happen is reverse at the Smithfield Cs at City Thameslink then head back. Or reverse at Blackfriars. Don't think this would have even happened late at night since Thameslink run (or attempt to) overnight services

View attachment 188858

No and I can't see why they would need to unless, there was some sort of catastrophic points failure at Ewer Street. Even then, you'd probably just reverse the train back to London Bridge if you couldn't get through to Waterloo East. It's almost never that a train can't go forwards or backwards but could still divert "diagonally".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2025 ==

Yes the Tonbridge trains usually seem empty. Or at least become empty after Sevenoaks. Perhaps there’s demand for a fast service again to the coast? I have noticed on that Rail Data site there’s been an increase in traffic on the classic services from London to the coast after the pandemic. Whether it’s a cost of living thing or terminal preference I don’t know.

Definitely a cost element. More people Tonbridge - Ashford instead of going towards Ashford for HS, happy to take the "classic" service from/to Ramsgate / Dover

 

[Bald Rick]

Thank you.

I am now quite confused as to the rules on underground (not Tube!) trains are. The Class 313, 319 and 717 all have doors on the front for emergency exits (as do Tube and DLR trains).

However, the 700 and 465/466 (did they ever do a 6/10 car train to CT?) do not have them. Is City Thameslink not deep enough underground for these sorts of rules to be enforced?

The issue is not depth of tunnel, but length of train vs length of single track tunnel with no means of side evacuation. There is a short stretch of single bore tunnel immediately north of City TL. And, when the 319s were built, there was a reasonable chance that the former links to the ECML at Kings Cross would be brought back into use. 4 car 319s therefore needed the end escape. With the reuse of the ECML link abandoned, the only tunnel of concern was that at City TL, and an 8 car 700 always has some part of it out of the tunnel.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Definitely a cost element. More people Tonbridge - Ashford instead of going towards Ashford for HS, happy to take the "classic" service from/to Ramsgate / Dover

But the passenger number rise is from people going from London to the coast via Tonbridge and Ashford. I'm one of them, simply because once you've done HS1, you've done it. But on the classic line there's always something to see.