CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Dai Corner]

Why is it so prudent that TOPS numbers must be sequential?

It would help staff remember which ones are ETCS fitted and not try to send a non-fitted one on to the Cambrian lines, for example..

 

[XFeed]

I was on this service last night from Wrexham to Chester. 4 coaches one toilet i assumed locked out and the other toilet with it's door stuck open half way. Im suprised they didn't pull it from service at Chester because of this, is it normal practice to just carry on, until it returns back to depot later in the evening?

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Toilets have been and continually are problematic unfortunately.

 

[SWML9102]

I was on this service last night from Wrexham to Chester. 4 coaches one toilet i assumed locked out and the other toilet with it's door stuck open half way. Im suprised they didn't pull it from service at Chester because of this, is it normal practice to just carry on, until it returns back to depot later in the evening?

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I've done Holyhead to Cardiff entire way on a 197 with no toilet. Announced (after leaving Holyhead) that toilet stops would be made en route, but to inform staff if urgent! Had extended stops of 10 mins at Chester and Shrewsbury and 5 at Hereford and still made Cardiff on time. Chester was interesting as the toilets are outside the gate line - had to ask to be let out and back in.

 

[WirralLine]

A mod is "in progress" for the toilets apparently, the actual toilets themselves seem to behave a bit more now since they got patched, its the cheap sliding door thats awful on the accessible toilet. Constantly jamming or coming up with spurious fault codes.

Still waiting for the updated PIS mods too which were supposed to be rolled out last year so the internal screens are actually useful.

Saying that, they cant even keep the basics working, multiple 3 cars running around with engines isolated, no heater/air con in rear cab for the guard with an isolated engine. Fault lists on the screen as long as your arm. DPF faults, transmission faults, camera faults, ASDO faults, HVAC faults, engine faults- it never ends. 175s weren't perfect by any means but my goodness all is forgiven bring them back!

The only thing that really impresses me with the 197 is their acceleration (unless its damp in which case they slip like hell then take an age to recalculate power distribution and rev back up) and the braking seems very effective too. Its always impressive just how much time these units can recover when late if driven to their full potential.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Why is it so prudent that TOPS numbers must be sequential?

To make it simple for staff to identify which units have ERTMS/ETCS. Though I would think a subclass would be even better rather than a number range somewhere in the middle of the 197/0s.

Toilets have been and continually are problematic unfortunately.

Not just 197s. My pair of 730s back from Crewe to London had both accessible loos out of action. Believed to be that they needed tanking (emptying and/or filling with water).

It is my belief that the accessible loos will suffer from more use that the non-accessible loos which are frankly in-accessible on many classes due to how small the room is. It is why I avoid them.

I've done Holyhead to Cardiff entire way on a 197 with no toilet. Announced (after leaving Holyhead) that toilet stops would be made en route, but to inform staff if urgent! Had extended stops of 10 mins at Chester and Shrewsbury and 5 at Hereford and still made Cardiff on time. Chester was interesting as the toilets are outside the gate line - had to ask to be let out and back in.

Chester has loos on the island platform (numbers 4-7 iirc) near the footbridge. However, if your train is on platform 3 then just outside the gateline might well be easier. Even a unit parked up on platforms 1, 2 or the other end of 3 is what I would be tempted by !.

 

[robert thomas]

A mod is "in progress" for the toilets apparently, the actual toilets themselves seem to behave a bit more now since they got patched, its the cheap sliding door thats awful on the accessible toilet. Constantly jamming or coming up with spurious fault codes.

Still waiting for the updated PIS mods too which were supposed to be rolled out last year so the internal screens are actually useful.

Saying that, they cant even keep the basics working, multiple 3 cars running around with engines isolated, no heater/air con in rear cab for the guard with an isolated engine. Fault lists on the screen as long as your arm. DPF faults, transmission faults, camera faults, ASDO faults, HVAC faults, engine faults- it never ends. 175s weren't perfect by any means but my goodness all is forgiven bring them back!

The only thing that really impresses me with the 197 is their acceleration (unless its damp in which case they slip like hell then take an age to recalculate power distribution and rev back up) and the braking seems very effective too. Its always impressive just how much time these units can recover when late if driven to their full potential.

I find that if the door is stuck in the half open position that if you close it manually & then re-open it usually re-sets itself.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I find that if the door is stuck in the half open position that if you close it manually & then re-open it usually re-sets itself.

Or find the guard and ask them to reset it.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

To make it simple for staff to identify which units have ERTMS/ETCS. Though I would think a subclass would be even better rather than a number range somewhere in the middle of the 197/0s.

Agreed.

Either just give the relevant units a 9 prefix ( e.g. 197 903 ) or they should fork out to fit the entire fleet - which, although expensive, would increase unit availability overall by one or two and would certainly increase flexibility and reliability with the ability to swap any failed units more easily.


Edited: Typo

 

[XFeed]

I find that if the door is stuck in the half open position that if you close it manually & then re-open it usually re-sets itself.

This reset usually works as the PLC would have thought that the door has encountered an obstacle and then stopped the door then isolated it.

It does not help either that there is only 1 toilet per 2 car and 2 toilets per 3 cars.

 

[tfw756rider]

...just give the relevant units a 9 prefix ( e.e. 197 903 )

In my opinion it wouldn't be right for all the units on the entire Cambrian railway to be "/9s". Just move 197003's ETCS equipment to 197021 and be done with it.

(Post #10,000!)

 

[amahy]

In my opinion it wouldn't be right for all the units on the entire Cambrian railway to be "/9s". Just move 197003's ETCS equipment to 197021 and be done with it.

But there should be an easy way of determining an ERTMS fitted unit from a non ERTMS unit.

 

[tfw756rider]

Fault lists on the screen as long as your arm. DPF faults, transmission faults, camera faults, ASDO faults, HVAC faults, engine faults- it never ends.

DPF faults? Wow... Any SCR/urea/AdBlue (DEF for any American readers) faults yet?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2026 ==

But there should be an easy way of determining an ERTMS fitted unit from a non ERTMS unit.

Ideally, there would be 4 197 subclasses:

197/0 for the 30 non-ETCS 2-car units (197001-197030)
197/1 for the 21 ETCS-fitted 2-car units (197101-197121)
197/2 for the 12 2+2-only 3-car units (197201-197212)
197/3 for the 14 3-car units with 2+1 (197301-197314)

But instead, it's "2 subclasses. with 2 variants of each", I'm guessing as the weight / weight distribution differences weren't significant enough to require 4 subclasses, and the bare minimum of 2 were used.

I was, however, just saying that 197003's ETCS equipment should be moved to 197021, just to resolve the issue of 197003 being the one ETCS-fitted unit numbered out-of-sequence with the other 20.

 

[D365]

In my opinion it wouldn't be right for all the units on the entire Cambrian railway to be "/9s". Just move 197003's ETCS equipment to 197021 and be done with it.

I'd be rather astounded to see that particular engineering change request. Needlessly spending £100,000s swapping ETCS equipment between units instead of, say, simply amending unit numbers.

 

[tfw756rider]

I'd be rather astounded to see that particular engineering change request. Needlessly spending £100,000s swapping ETCS equipment between units instead of, say, simply amending unit numbers.

It would cost £100,000s just to swap the equipment between the units? If so, why? And I thought you can't just swap two units' unit and vehicle numbers, or can you?

Surely something will be done about it, otherwise 197003 would be numbered out-of-sequence with the other 20 ETCS-fitted units for years and decades.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2026 ==

I don`t recall seeing it that early but having said that I don`t keep note of any unit that first arrives at the depot or any other unit really.

My first recollection of 003 was when the warranty team from Crewe arrived to replace an engine raft at Chester depot, can`t remember which car.

197003 was dragged to Machynlleth in May 2022 (for the earliest 197 test runs on the Cambrian, under overnight possession, that followed), so it must've been delivered before then.

Always good to have information from you though

 

[43096]

And I thought you can't just swap two units' unit and vehicle numbers, or can you?

You can - GWR swapped some of their HST vehicle numbers over.

 

[tfw756rider]

You can - GWR swapped some of their HST vehicle numbers over.

Wow, that's a new on me - thanks.

 

[craigybagel]

Saying that, they cant even keep the basics working, multiple 3 cars running around with engines isolated, no heater/air con in rear cab for the guard with an isolated engine. Fault lists on the screen as long as your arm. DPF faults, transmission faults, camera faults, ASDO faults, HVAC faults, engine faults- it never ends. 175s weren't perfect by any means but my goodness all is forgiven bring them back!

The only thing that really impresses me with the 197 is their acceleration (unless its damp in which case they slip like hell then take an age to recalculate power distribution and rev back up) and the braking seems very effective too. Its always impressive just how much time these units can recover when late if driven to their full potential.

To be fair, most of the faults you see on the TCMS seem to have no actual impact on the running of the train. They cope a lot better with faults than 175s did, even if they do seem to have more of them.

I'd be rather astounded to see that particular engineering change request. Needlessly spending £100,000s swapping ETCS equipment between units instead of, say, simply amending unit numbers.

It shouldn't be a big deal - the non ETCS sets were designed with conversion in mind, with some of the wiring already done and a modular cab design. It's not like you need to build a massive cupboard in the saloon like you did with the 158s.

 

[800001]

Agreed.

Either just give the relevant units a 9 prefix ( e.g. 197 903 ) or they should fork out to fit the entire fleet - which, although expensive, would increase unit availability overall by one or two and would certainly increase flexibility and reliability with the ability to swap any failed units more easily.


Edited: Typo

I'm sure all the relevant people who need to know which units have ETCS are fully aware, and do not need to renumber units to make it easier.

 

[tfw756rider]

It shouldn't be a big deal - the non ETCS sets were designed with conversion in mind, with some of the wiring already done and a modular cab design. It's not like you need to build a massive cupboard in the saloon like you did with the 158s.

Exactly

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2026 ==

I'm sure all the relevant people who need to know which units have ETCS are fully aware, and do not need to renumber units to make it easier.

Maybe, but 197003 would still be numbered out-of-sequence with the rest of the ETCS-fitted units, so it would make sense to move 197003's ETCS equipment to 197021.

 

[XFeed]

197003 was dragged to Machynlleth in May 2022 (for the earliest 197 test runs on the Cambrian, under overnight possession, that followed), so it must've been delivered before then.

Always good to have information from you though

A timeline of May 22 would mean the acceptance and EiS exam -Entry into Service - would not have been carried out at Chester, probably at Crewe.

 

[Jez]

A mod is "in progress" for the toilets apparently, the actual toilets themselves seem to behave a bit more now since they got patched, its the cheap sliding door thats awful on the accessible toilet. Constantly jamming or coming up with spurious fault codes.

Still waiting for the updated PIS mods too which were supposed to be rolled out last year so the internal screens are actually useful.

Saying that, they cant even keep the basics working, multiple 3 cars running around with engines isolated, no heater/air con in rear cab for the guard with an isolated engine. Fault lists on the screen as long as your arm. DPF faults, transmission faults, camera faults, ASDO faults, HVAC faults, engine faults- it never ends. 175s weren't perfect by any means but my goodness all is forgiven bring them back!

The only thing that really impresses me with the 197 is their acceleration (unless its damp in which case they slip like hell then take an age to recalculate power distribution and rev back up) and the braking seems very effective too. Its always impressive just how much time these units can recover when late if driven to their full potential.

Thats good to know regarding the toilets. Im always wary of using the accessible one incase I get stuck inside! I did risk using it the last time I travelled longer distance but there didnt seem to be any problems. If ive seen other people having to physically move the door themselves i will opt for the smaller toilet if its a 3 car (or 3+2)

I echo what you say about how impressive the acceleration is on the 197s. Yesterday afternoon I caught the Swanline to Neath and my return journey (1642) was cancelled. To my surprise they stopped the 1704 Manchester sevice at Swanline stops. I was expecting to have to wait another hour (there was talk from the station staff of a replacement bus being put on however before they discovered the 1704 was making the stops). Anyway getting back to my point, the service lost hardly any time at all making the extra stops at Swanline stations. Although they are not listed on RTT it shows the main stops and only lost 7 mins on departure from Port Talbot after calling at 4 extra stops, and then arrived into Cardiff just 3 minutes late (but left 7 minutes late but thats still quite impressive and easier than sorting replacement buses for the swanline stops)

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I do wonder if it had been formed of 5 cars would they have made Swanline stops. Im not sure what the status is with SDO for Swanline but last week Pencoed etc had stops with 5 car so i assume Swanline can do the same now? Not sure whether SDO can be put in place at short notice however. So it might well have worked in our favour being short formed 3 car vice 5 car.

A bonus for me doing the short journey on a 197 not a 150!

 

[craigybagel]

I do wonder if it had been formed of 5 cars would they have made Swanline stops. Im not sure what the status is with SDO for Swanline but last week Pencoed etc had stops with 5 car so i assume Swanline can do the same now? Not sure whether SDO can be put in place at short notice however. So it might well have worked in our favour being short formed 3 car vice 5 car.

A bonus for me doing the short journey on a 197 not a 150!

ASDO on 197s is on at all times (other than the very rare in my experience times when it's broken); it doesn't care about where a train is booked to call, it just knows when it's in the vicinity of a certain station and is traveling in a certain direction, how long that platform is and how many doors can be opened accordingly. It also already has the data for intermediate stations that TfW never normally call at (such as those between Crewe and Manchester, or Wolverhampton and Birmingham International).

It's not a bad bit of kit compared to what we had before, it's just a pity we don't have the balises installed so at stations where more than one platform can be used the guard has to manually override it.

 

[tfw756rider]

Well I'm not surprised the 197s have impressive acceleration and braking, as all the modern "bus-style gearbox" diesel multiple units do.

The first of these I rode on was a 172 in early 2022. I was actually impressed with how quick its acceleration was (compared with the hydraulic transmission 170s) and I also noticed the "quicker" braking too.

I later had my first rides on a 195, 196 and 197 (in late 2022, late 2023 and late 2023 respectively) and I knew what to expect beforehand, but I suppose if you've gone straight from 175 (for example) to 197, the improvements in acceleration and braking are going to be more impressive.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2026 ==

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Does anyone in here know why, after the 197029+197030 duo worked the above 16 (4+10+2) runs on the Cambrian, the schedules just cut off? It's now been nearly a week since the last one ran, and I haven't seen a schedule for them going back off the Cambrian either.

 

[ThePeakNed]

DPF faults? Wow... Any SCR/urea/AdBlue (DEF for any American readers) faults yet?

Plenty of vehicles run daily with the TCMS either claiming the AdBlue quality is poor, or they don’t have AdBlue in them at all. Knock on effect(s) of that is “Diesel engine anomaly” and / or “Engine power reduction” and then you’ve got a unit that couldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding.

 

[Jez]

ASDO on 197s is on at all times (other than the very rare in my experience times when it's broken); it doesn't care about where a train is booked to call, it just knows when it's in the vicinity of a certain station and is traveling in a certain direction, how long that platform is and how many doors can be opened accordingly. It also already has the data for intermediate stations that TfW never normally call at (such as those between Crewe and Manchester, or Wolverhampton and Birmingham International).

It's not a bad bit of kit compared to what we had before, it's just a pity we don't have the balises installed so at stations where more than one platform can be used the guard has to manually override it.

Thanks for explaining @craigybagel Its good to know that ASDO can be used at short notice when additional calls are made.

 

[tfw756rider]

Plenty of vehicles run daily with the TCMS either claiming the AdBlue quality is poor, or they don’t have AdBlue in them at all. Knock on effect(s) of that is “Diesel engine anomaly” and / or “Engine power reduction” and then you’ve got a unit that couldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding.

Ah thanks, not very good is it!

 

[sd0733]

Thanks for explaining @craigybagel Its good to know that ASDO can be used at short notice when additional calls are made.

Easy to spot its active at every station as the door out of use indicators all light up every time it enters an ASDO bubble and turn off again when it passes out the other side.

 

[nwales58]

... as the door out of use indicators all light up every time it enters an ASDO bubble and turn off again when it passes out the other side.

Which is extremely good design. Not. Passengers waiting to get off then believe the door is broken, or will be off the platform, so start walking to the next door which is also 'out of use', maybe panic and run to the next one and so on. Until regular users tell them it's just like that.

 

[ThePeakNed]

Ah thanks, not very good is it!

I’m used to it now. It’s more of a shock when you get one that’s full to the brim with adblue. Becomes a challenge to see how much you can hammer it through Alderley Edge after leaving Wilmslow

 

[D365]

Easy to spot its active at every station as the door out of use indicators all light up every time it enters an ASDO bubble and turn off again when it passes out the other side.

What do you mean by "an ASDO bubble"?

Do the corresponding OOU indicators also illuminate when ASDO is manually overridden at a GOP (guard operation panel)?