Ffestiniog Round Robin advice, please!

[wellhouse]

My tickets have been issued as "Rail Ranger" on one ticket

That is curious. BRFares describes the fare as 'Std Return'

 

[Mcr Warrior]

That is curious. BRFares describes the fare as 'Std Return'

Doesn't the ticket only have outward and return validity = one day?

 

[transportphoto]

Looking at BRFares, I see 'No Restrictions', and bearing in mind that fares are offered from as far as Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham, it's not clear that validity is restricted to 1 day.

BRFares being fairly reliable but nonetheless an unofficial data source. Looking at the validity field for the Birmingham example, it is shown as validity of one day. (Attached is a screenshot demonstrating such. Readers will note wording to the effect of: “One journey in each direction to be made within: Outward: 1 day, Return: 1 day.”)

My tickets have been issued as "Rail Ranger" on one ticket

Have you an example?

 

[jmhilde]

DaveB10780, I appreciate your input! As we'll be on holiday, we sure don't want to have an adventure turn into a slog. If you were to do the Round Robin over again, is there anything you'd do differently? Are there any shortcuts or detours rather than doing the entire very long day?

 

[billh]

I did this trip last year, from Manchester. £38 with senior railcard all -in, a great bargain.I think the FR get about £20 of that? But... I went to my local station to book and asked for Ffestiniog Round Robin from Manchester please. The clerk could not find it in the system so they made a couple of phone calls and whoever was on the other end, couldn't help either. I was advised to return later in the day when the office shift had changed. I did so, and the young lad on the new shift knew all about it and sold me the ticket, no problem.
it's a long trip from M/c to Portmadoc but not unpleasant, a 158 from Shrewsbury. Arrived in BF in the rain and had an hour or two there. It seemed rather a sad place not helped by the weather. The highlight for me was seeing the Hunslet NG loco in the piazza!

 

[wellhouse]

BRFares being fairly reliable but nonetheless an unofficial data source. Looking at the validity field for the Birmingham example, it is shown as validity of one day. (Attached is a screenshot demonstrating such. Readers will note wording to the effect of: “One journey in each direction to be made within: Outward: 1 day, Return: 1 day.”)



Have you an example?

Other Day Returns on BRFares.com use different wording, explicitly stating;

One Journey in each direction to be made within:

Outward Validity: ON DATE SHOWN (1 day)
Return Validity: ON DATE SHOWN (1 Day)

The wording for the Ffestiniog Round Robin stipulates that the Outward and Return Journeys must each be made within one day, but since it does not use the same wording as that for Day Returns (ON DATE SHOWN), it is possible to interpret this as meaning that the Return need not be the same day is the Outward. Break Of Journey is permitted in either direction, but not overnight, while an overnight Break Of Journey may be permitted between the Outward and the Return.

It is worth noting that even if The Round Robin is valid only for one day, 2 Round Robin Fares undercut the single fares for doing the circuit over more than one day.

​	​

 

[Haywain]

it is possible to interpret this as meaning that the Return need not be the same day is the Outward.

What are you choosing to interpret as being the return, when the ticket is for a circular one way journey?

 

[transportphoto]

The wording for the Ffestiniog Round Robin stipulates that the Outward and Return Journeys must each be made within one day, but since it does not use the same wording as that for Day Returns (ON DATE SHOWN), it is possible to interpret this as meaning that the Return need not be the same day is the Outward.

I think you’re clutching at straws here - reality is that it’s a one day only ticket.

 

[Belperpete]

1) I'm not seeing online reservations available for one-way Blaenau Ffestiniog Rail tix. How do we reserve our seats? I'm reading BF keeps a coach open for walk-ups but that makes me a tad nervous. Is there any way to actually reserve seats ahead of time?
2) If yes, can we upgrade that one-way journey to BF's gold class?

The FR does not do specific seat reservations in standard (third) class. It is more like an allocated places system, where they stop selling tickets when the train is full. However, they don't sell to 100% , and as you say most trains have a coach reserved for intermediate passengers, so if you have already bought your round robin tickets you should have no problem getting seats.

You can upgrade to first class, which does come with specific seat reservations. However first class often sells out. With four of you travelling, on a bank holiday weekend, I would suggest phoning the booking office a day or fwo in advance if you want to upgrade to first.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2026 ==

I don't blame you! But do remember you will not have enough time to get to Porthmadog main line station, hence the need to change at Minffordd.

If you do intend to change at Minffordd it is advisable to let the guard know, as some of the FR coaches have locked doors. If you let the guard know before you board. you will probably be directed to the "intermediate" coach.

 

[wellhouse]

What are you choosing to interpret as being the return, when the ticket is for a circular one way journey?

As has been mentioned on previous threads on the topic, BRFares defines the fare as 'Std Return'.

It is valid over two routes in either direction, but carries the unusual Restriction that the same route may not be used in both directions.

As far as I can see it is unique, as other Round Robin tickets are defined as Ranger tickets, not Returns

 

[Envoy]

I think that some common sense is called for here and the powers that me - who must surely be reading this - need to make it user friendly as the idea of doing such a trip is indeed excellent.

All this BRFares stuff about Standard Return needs to be scrapped. It is in fact a one way journey in a circuit to which customers can have add ons in order to reach the circuit - or pay the fare from start point to place on circuit. For example, someone from Manchester might aim for Shrewsbury as their start point on the circuit yet wish to come off the circuit at Chester and go back to Manchester.

More than 1 day needs to be allowed for such a trip for those who desire longer. This would benefit tourism for places on the circuit. For example, someone might wish to have a couple of nights in Porthmadog in order to take the Welsh Highland Railway to Caernarfon and back thus spending more money in the area. A break in Welshpool would enable people to go to Powis Castle. People should also be allowed to use the short branch line into Llandudno as part of the deal.

If the connections at Blaenau Ffestiniog can be reasonably ‘sensible’, then this would also attract more custom. (You would not want to hang around in BF for 2 hours).

 

[Haywain]

All this BRFares stuff about Standard Return needs to be scrapped.

BRFares is snot an official source of information so, while it draws from the railways data, what it says has no standing as part of a contract. If the railway were displaying that information anywhere there may be an argument that it has some standing.

More than 1 day needs to be allowed for such a trip for those who desire longer. This would benefit tourism for places on the circuit. For example, someone might wish to have a couple of nights in Porthmadog in order to take the Welsh Highland Railway to Caernarfon and back thus spending more money in the area. A break in Welshpool would enable people to go to Powis Castle. People should also be allowed to use the short branch line into Llandudno as part of the deal.

If the Ffestiniog Round Robin doesn't suit, then don't buy it. There are other Rover and Ranger tickets covering the same area that provide that flexibility. If the FRR is to provide the flexibility of the Explore North & Mid Wales Pass, it will need to have the price of it as well.

 

[X-City-WM]

I’m pretty sure this isn’t possible with the new FFR/WHR timetables, however:

If staying locally, rather than heading via Shrewsbury, a Ffestiniog + Welsh Highland Rail circular.

I managed this several years ago:

Early train from Llandudno to Bangor
Bus from Bangor to Caernarfon
WHR from Caernarfon to Porthmadog
Pint or two in Spooners watching the locos
Ffestiniog from Porthmadog to Betws-y-Coed
Train from Betws-y-Coed to Llandudno

It might be worth looking into, but, as I say I think it could be impossible even in high-season these days.

Regarding walk-up seats, I’ve been worried about securing a seat when not going for one of their “experiences” in recent years, but have found loads of space and been able to switch trains, jump on trains and pay the guard, etc. Always with lots of space available.

 

[Haywain]

Ffestiniog from Porthmadog to Betws-y-Coed

That bit won't be possible, unless they've suddenly extended the FR!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2026 ==

Regarding walk-up seats, I’ve been worried about securing a seat when not going for one of their “experiences” in recent years, but have found loads of space and been able to switch trains,

On holiday near to Porthmadog last summer, I wanted a trip to Beddgelert and back with the family - 6 of us - and had no problem booking on the morning into the walk-up and part journey coach. And there was loads of space (and loads of rain outside, unfortunately).

 

[X-City-WM]

That bit won't be possible, unless they've suddenly extended the FR!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2026 ==

Oh yes, of course I meant Blanau Ffestiniog.

Getting confused with different trips. Betws-y-Coed is for the Yr Wyddfa trips (via bus).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2026 ==

On holiday near to Porthmadog last summer, I wanted a trip to Beddgelert and back with the family - 6 of us - and had no problem booking on the morning into the walk-up and part journey coach. And there was loads of space (and loads of rain outside, unfortunately).

We did exactly the same last Easter. Albeit 3 of us. Loads of space. Similarly plenty of (light) rain.

 

[Haywain]

Similarly plenty of (light) rain.

I wish ours had been light, it was more like a blooming monsoon in Beddgelert!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I’m pretty sure this isn’t possible with the new FFR/WHR timetables, however:
If staying locally, rather than heading via Shrewsbury, a Ffestiniog + Welsh Highland Rail circular.
I managed this several years ago:
Early train from Llandudno to Bangor
Bus from Bangor to Caernarfon
WHR from Caernarfon to Porthmadog
Pint or two in Spooners watching the locos
Ffestiniog from Porthmadog to Betws-y-Coed
Train from Betws-y-Coed to Llandudno

It might be worth looking into, but, as I say I think it could be impossible even in high-season these days.

I did that circular trip from Llandudno Jn pre-Covid, though starting up the coast at Flint, and excellent it was too, with a one-way trip on two very different narrow gauge lines.
Compared to the Round Robin via Chester, Shrewsbury and Machynlleth, you miss the Cambrian and North Wales coastal sections, plus lots of pretty inland Wales/Borders scenery, but you get more time in Eryri.
It's a very long day on the Round Robin, and you don't really appreciate the towns along the way, despite passing Shrewsbury Castle and Chester's city walls (twice!) .
But I don't know how practical the smaller loop is with the current timetables.
The key is the timing of the WHR departure from Caernarfon to Porthmadog.
Bus service from Bangor to Caernarfon is Arriva 5C, download timetable from here: https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/download-timetables?page=1
It's about a 40 minute ride, bus stop outside Bangor station (on main road round the corner). Summer times not up yet.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Are there any other National Rail tickets which include the Ffestiniog Railway?

 

[Haywain]

Are there any other National Rail tickets which include the Ffestiniog Railway?

The All Line Railrover includes both the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways.

 

[Jan Mayen]

The All Line Railrover includes both the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways.

Many thanks. I'd forgotten about that. I suspect I'll be using that one at some point, rather than try and do a one day trip from Sussex.

 

[TrainTraveler]

"If you were to do the Round Robin over again, is there anything you'd do differently? Are there any shortcuts or detours rather than doing the entire very long day?"

It is a long day and much as I like Llandudno I'm not sure I would start there.

As far as I know you don't actually have to complete a loop to use the ticket so you could (for example) start at Llandudno but end the day at Shrewsbury (which is a nice town).

The other thing to check for is rail replacement buses.

The rail timetable for your dates (Friday 22 May or Saturday 23 May) doesn't seem available yet but I've previously had plans for rail travel in Wales scuppered so check very carefully.

 

[jmhilde]

Thanks, TrainTraveler! We'll be staying in Llanbedr-y-Cennin which I believe is in-between Llandudno Junction and Betws-y-Coed so either could be our starting point, we'd just need somewhere to leave our car. Keeping your reminder in mind that we could always cut the circle short if need be, I'm guessing Llandudno Junction would be the better choice with more possible trains coming in there than to Betws? Just guessing!

LNW-GW Joint, I am probably reading your comment wrong but doesn't the Round Robin (as shown here: https://tfw.wales/sites/default/files/2024-08/Ffestiniog-Round-Robin-V2_ENG-2024.pdf) catch the Cambrian and North Wales coastal sections, i.e. Porthmadog to Machynllth?

 

[Belperpete]

Bus service from Bangor to Caernarfon is Arriva 5C, download timetable from here: https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/download-timetables?page=1
It's about a 40 minute ride, bus stop outside Bangor station (on main road round the corner). Summer times not up yet.

There is also the T2 Traws Cymru bus that runs between Bangor and Caernarfon (and on to Porthmadog and Aberystwyth). It is much faster than the 5C, as it takes a much more direct route, but unfortunately is much less frequent. Through rail+bus fares are available to Caernarfon on the T2. Timetables can be found on the Gwynedd and TfW websites.

The FR + WHR circular is getting a bit off topic, but for those who want to do it, the FR and WHR booking offices sell a through single Porthmadog to Caernarfon or v.v. with priv rates available for those with passes. You need to check your days, as WHR trains only run all the way through between Porthmadog and Caernarfon on certain days of the week. Other days the trains only run to Beddgelert, with the trains from Porthmadog and Caernarfon meeting at Beddgelert. You can swap from one train to the other in order to travel right through. but the time spent in Beddgelert does increase the through journey time on those days.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2026 ==

Thanks, TrainTraveler! We'll be staying in Llanbedr-y-Cennin which I believe is in-between Llandudno Junction and Betws-y-Coed so either could be our starting point, we'd just need somewhere to leave our car. Keeping your reminder in mind that we could always cut the circle short if need be, I'm guessing Llandudno Junction would be the better choice with more possible trains coming in there than to Betws? Just guessing!

You may want to consider starting from Llanrwst North, rather than Betws. I think parking there should be easier, as it is slightly out of town. There are also regular buses between Llandudno Junction and Llanrwst, which you could use instead of the train (although not covered by the Round Robin ticket).

LNW-GW Joint, I am probably reading your comment wrong but doesn't the Round Robin (as shown here: https://tfw.wales/sites/default/files/2024-08/Ffestiniog-Round-Robin-V2_ENG-2024.pdf) catch the Cambrian and North Wales coastal sections, i.e. Porthmadog to Machynllth?

Yes, the FR Round Robin does include those sections. LNW-GW Joint was talking about the FR+WHR circular trip (Llandudno - Blaenau - Porthmadog - Caernarfon - Bangor - Llandudno), which does not.

 

[mmh]

You may want to consider starting from Llanrwst North, rather than Betws. I think parking there should be easier, as it is slightly out of town. There are also regular buses between Llandudno Junction and Llanrwst, which you could use instead of the train (although not covered by the Round Robin ticket)

I would highly advise against planning on using buses. They're very infrequent and likely to be confusing to a visitor.

 

[jmhilde]

Thanks, all.
I also see a station at Dolgarrog, even closer to our accommodations. Would that be a good jumping off spot?

As for buses, more than 30 years ago I did a six-week solo backpacking trip, part of which I spent exploring Ireland. I spent an awful lot of time waiting for country buses, to the point I turned to occasional hitchhiking. My first time ever driving on the other side of the road (yes, I'm American) came when I offered to drive the rather inebriated landlord of my accommodations home from the pub. It was pitch black out and of course I'd had a couple of Guinnesses myself but amazingly we got home safely. And now it's a great story!

 

[Llandudno]

There is also the T2 Traws Cymru bus that runs between Bangor and Caernarfon (and on to Porthmadog and Aberystwyth). It is much faster than the 5C, as it takes a much more direct route, but unfortunately is much less frequent. Through rail+bus fares are available to Caernarfon on the T2. Timetables can be found on the Gwynedd and TfW websites.

The FR + WHR circular is getting a bit off topic, but for those who want to do it, the FR and WHR booking offices sell a through single Porthmadog to Caernarfon or v.v. with priv rates available for those with passes. You need to check your days, as WHR trains only run all the way through between Porthmadog and Caernarfon on certain days of the week. Other days the trains only run to Beddgelert, with the trains from Porthmadog and Caernarfon meeting at Beddgelert. You can swap from one train to the other in order to travel right through. but the time spent in Beddgelert does increase the through journey time on those days.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2026 ==



You may want to consider starting from Llanrwst North, rather than Betws. I think parking there should be easier, as it is slightly out of town. There are also regular buses between Llandudno Junction and Llanrwst, which you could use instead of the train (although not covered by the Round Robin ticket).

Yes, the FR Round Robin does include those sections. LNW-GW Joint was talking about the FR+WHR circular trip (Llandudno - Blaenau - Porthmadog - Caernarfon - Bangor - Llandudno), which does not.

Be careful Llanrwst doesn’t have any buses after 1900!

 

[Belperpete]

Thanks, all.
I also see a station at Dolgarrog, even closer to our accommodations. Would that be a good jumping off spot?

Dolgarrog is a tiny halt in the middle of nowhere, accessed by a dirt track if I recall correctly. If you can walk there from your accomodation it might be worth considering, but I wouldn't advise driving and parking there.

 

[TrainTraveler]

Now knowing where your accomodation is, I would recommend you stick to plan A and start and end your journey at Llandudno Junction as it has good parking (do, however, make a trip to Llandudno and Conway on other days).

The comment on buses was just based on rail replacement busses having upset some previous plans of mine in Wales.

Llandudno junction does have a good train service so you should be OK to make that your last leg of the loop.

I did a "walk up" upgrade to first class on the Ffestiniog doing something close to your itinerary (although starting from a different point), but that was just for one person. With 4 reserving it would be a good idea.

It's a super day out.

Enjoy!

 

[Belperpete]

I've always thought anticlockwise was better anyway. Primarily for the way the scenery builds on the Conwy Valley and that final impressive emergence from the tunnel into the slatescape. The Coast isn't better or worse either way round in my view.

For starting at the Junction, I agree. You will be seeing the best bits of the journey, the Conwy Valley, the Ffestiniog, and the Cambrian Coast while you are still fresh, and in daylight.

It would be a pity if you have to change at Minffordd, as you would miss the ride on the Ffestiniog across the Cob with it's spectacular views of Snowdon and out to sea, and the similar views from the Cambrian and crossing the WHR. If you do have to change at Minffordd, look out for the subway leading down to the Cambrian platform below, which may not be immediately obvious.

However, I would recommend changing in Porthmadog if you can. There is plenty to while away an hour or so there, strolling around the harbour, the maritime museum, Portmeirion coffee shop in the impressive old Kerfoots shop, etc. And plenty of places to get a bite to eat or drink, including Spooner's in the Ffestiniog station, with the glass screened patio area where you can sit and watch the trains come and go. There can be four trains or more in the station some lunchtimes, with plenty going on.

 

[jmhilde]

OK, I'll look at times starting at Llandudno Junction, heading anti-clockwise. I've emailed the Ffestiniog folks asking if I may reserve four upgraded seats for the ride from Porthmadog. Fingers crossed!

Absolutely, we will probably spend our first day in the area exploring Conwy (where my group has been before) and Llandudno (which will be new to us.)

With all of your help, a fantastic day out is coming together!