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Rail replacement buses vs. longer train journeys - choices by passengers in engineering works

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Bletchleyite

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Crewe is bad for this.

They really need a larger area out front of the main entrance where they can sufficiently hold both rail replacement buses and taxis. At the moment is holds a small number of taxis.

The easiest way to do it if the Horse Landing is the most useful place (which it probably is) would just be to call it Platform 13 and sign it as such. People will then realise that that's likely next to Platform 12 and find it just fine. Calling it the Horse Landing might be a nice historic quirk but isn't particularly useful in practice.

It'd also be apt in that if you had to head to Platform 13 you are unlucky :)
 
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TUC

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It is argued that PSVAR requires the use of the destination equipment to display the destination etc (I don't know if that's actually explicit, though). Putting that joke on there (or just "rail replacement") isn't hugely more use than a service bus just displaying "Stagecoach" to anyone, but a deaf person for instance may find it harder to ask for clarification.
Not displaying the destination isn't a disability access issue. It creates a problem for all passengers. Except when a RRB has been arranged at short notice, it's hard to see the absence of at least a board showing the destination as anything but laziness by the operator.
 

Ian Hardy

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Not displaying the destination isn't a disability access issue. It creates a problem for all passengers. Except when a RRB has been arranged at short notice, it's hard to see the absence of at least a board showing the destination as anything but laziness by the operator.
Which operator:
1. The TOC
2. The contractor who has the contract to organise the RRBs for the TOC
3. The bus operator

The board showing the destination would probably be provided by 1 or 2 in the list above.
The first time that the RRB driver will get given the board is when they arrive at the start point for their shift, if there no staff with a pile of boards to hand out at that point, then the bus won't have one, will there be a bus controller there to wave off the first bus at 05:30 in the morning? That bus might not get back to the point that has the pile for a couple of hours.
The boards couldn't be handed out at the bus depot because it is likely that the buses will come from lots of different operators, from all over the country, e.g. I have been on an SWR RRB between Clapham Junction and Woking and the bus operator's base was Walsall.
 

35B

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Which operator:
1. The TOC
2. The contractor who has the contract to organise the RRBs for the TOC
3. The bus operator

The board showing the destination would probably be provided by 1 or 2 in the list above.
The first time that the RRB driver will get given the board is when they arrive at the start point for their shift, if there no staff with a pile of boards to hand out at that point, then the bus won't have one, will there be a bus controller there to wave off the first bus at 05:30 in the morning? That bus might not get back to the point that has the pile for a couple of hours.
The boards couldn't be handed out at the bus depot because it is likely that the buses will come from lots of different operators, from all over the country, e.g. I have been on an SWR RRB between Clapham Junction and Woking and the bus operator's base was Walsall.
Then someone, I suggest the rail operator hiring the coach, needs to get a grip and make sure the job is done properly.
 

Bletchleyite

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In any case I very much doubt there are any coach depots that don't have some A4 in the printer, a marker pen and a roll of sellotape, if it comes to it. It's not very professional but it's better than nothing.
 

Segedunum

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I wasn’t thinking about the platform length, more about can the four platforms at St Pancras handle exclusively full length trains and maintain the timetable?
My understanding of this is no - and that any LNER services running into St Pancras would largely be at the expense of EMR.
 

Bletchleyite

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My understanding of this is no - and that any LNER services running into St Pancras would largely be at the expense of EMR.

Of course it's not unusual for special timetables to be put in place to allow for such things. As a couple of examples, if you're diverting all Avanti services via Northampton there's sometimes a rail replacement service for the local passengers, and similarly Chiltern often pulls the Met service to free up units for longer services on the mainline when the WCML is shut. You'd not have to pull all of it, though, just run a less frequent 10 car service instead of a more frequent 5 car one.
 

Kite159

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Of course it's not unusual for special timetables to be put in place to allow for such things. As a couple of examples, if you're diverting all Avanti services via Northampton there's sometimes a rail replacement service for the local passengers, and similarly Chiltern often pulls the Met service to free up units for longer services on the mainline when the WCML is shut. You'd not have to pull all of it, though, just run a less frequent 10 car service instead of a more frequent 5 car one.
Likewise for Chiltern, if the WCML is closed and they are strengthening London - Birmingham trains, they end up having to run a replacement bus for the likes of Kings Sutton, Hatton & Lapworth as the longer trains don't fit at those stations and the 165/168s lack SDO. They also make stops south of Bicester as pick up only heading towards Birmingham (and I presume set down only heading to London) to cater for the higher demand for Birmingham passengers at the expense of their regular passengers of High Wycombe/Gerrard Cross etc who end up put on a local stopper.

As for LNER into St Pancras, the Hull Trains 802s are cleared for the usual route towards Doncaster so I would imagine a 9 coach 800 wouldn't be too hard to clear, it will just be a case of LNER getting a freight driver to route conduct from Doncaster. However just look at the overcrowding of LNER services when they have to thin out services for engineering works (i.e hourly York - Newcastle via the Durham Coast) and even a 9 coach Azuma might not be enough. Does Hull Trains still call at Doncaster on the weekends they divert into St Pancras or are they generally (passenger call wise) non-stop London to Selby?
 

styles

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I avoid rail replacement buses whenever I can.

Most of my rail journeys are long distance and I don't really enjoy being on very long bus/coach journeys.

I generally will either delay/bring forward my trip if I can, or plan a different rail route.

Short distance rail replacement buses are fine, but I just don't really enjoy longer ones.

Also because most of my journeys are long distance they are often on trains which travel faster than buses, so a rail replacement bus from say Glasgow to Carlisle is likely to be around twice the duration as the train would have been.

I get that they're necessary sometimes, but they're not for me. At that point I'd probably rather drive even.
 

Trainbike46

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My understanding of this is no - and that any LNER services running into St Pancras would largely be at the expense of EMR.
In what way could you not run 4tph (IC) from 3 platforms, if all services are full length?

Running much more than the standard 4tph may of course be a challenge!
 

TUC

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Which operator:
1. The TOC
2. The contractor who has the contract to organise the RRBs for the TOC
3. The bus operator

The board showing the destination would probably be provided by 1 or 2 in the list above.
The first time that the RRB driver will get given the board is when they arrive at the start point for their shift, if there no staff with a pile of boards to hand out at that point, then the bus won't have one, will there be a bus controller there to wave off the first bus at 05:30 in the morning? That bus might not get back to the point that has the pile for a couple of hours.
The boards couldn't be handed out at the bus depot because it is likely that the buses will come from lots of different operators, from all over the country, e.g. I have been on an SWR RRB between Clapham Junction and Woking and the bus operator's base was Walsall.
It's not difficult in the slightest. The TOC hiring the RRB operator requires in the contrct for it to be provided. How the bus operator does that is their problem. You don't expect us to put up with poor service just to take solving minor problems off the bus operator's hands, do you?
 

Falcon1200

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This week Oxford has the bridge deck out south of the platforms, so the choice is XC bus replacement or the usual GWR Banbury stopper (doesn't run every hour..)

I travelled from Oxford to Birmingham early yesterday and rather than use the bus or the GWR stopper, took Chiltern to Bicester Village, walked to Bicester North (good exercise) and Chiltern from there, the second train being the one I would have connected into at Banbury anyway. And I then took advantage of Cross Country to cover a new route in the Sheffield area!
 

Dr Hoo

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In what way could you not run 4tph (IC) from 3 platforms, if all services are full length?

Running much more than the standard 4tph may of course be a challenge!
It seems to be generally accepted that the Midlands Main Line is ‘full’ (at least Monday-Saturday) south of Bedford with 6 EMR services plus Thameslink partially on the Fast Lines including crossing moves.The last thing you want with ‘tight’ platforming and some two-train sharing with 5-car sets is late presentation.
 

Segedunum

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In what way could you not run 4tph (IC) from 3 platforms, if all services are full length?

Running much more than the standard 4tph may of course be a challenge!
My response was more based on trying to lengthen things based upon the current timetable (and trying to divert LNER services on top) - the timetable at the minute is too dependent on stacking things on top of each other. The platform occupation graph would make for interesting reading.

Whether you could achieve this with a full scale rewrite is another matter!
 

david1212

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It's not difficult in the slightest. The TOC hiring the RRB operator requires in the contract for it to be provided. How the bus operator does that is their problem. You don't expect us to put up with poor service just to take solving minor problems off the bus operator's hands, do you?

Interesting given the actual driver may not know the route they are allocated until getting to the front of the line at the station they are told to report to.

Hypothetically consider Tiverton Parkway <> Newton Abott.
The RRB controller at Tiverton Parkway could say you are going non-stop to Newton Abott, to Exeter only or to Newton Abott via all stations.
If non-stop to Newton Abott when the driver reaches the front of the line there for the next trip the RRB controller could allocate non-stop to Tiverton Parkway, direct to Exeter, to Exeter via Teignmouth and Dawlish only or to Exeter via all stations etc.

The logical approach would be for the RRB controller to have pre-printed sheets for each option with blank sheets and a thick marker pen as backup.

The RRB operator and driver realistically only have the blank sheets and marker pen option unless a digital display is pre-programmed. More likely is just having ' Rail Replacement ' set at the depot.
 

185143

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Likewise for Chiltern, if the WCML is closed and they are strengthening London - Birmingham trains, they end up having to run a replacement bus for the likes of Kings Sutton, Hatton & Lapworth as the longer trains don't fit at those stations and the 165/168s lack SDO. They also make stops south of Bicester as pick up only heading towards Birmingham (and I presume set down only heading to London) to cater for the higher demand for Birmingham passengers at the expense of their regular passengers of High Wycombe/Gerrard Cross etc who end up put on a local stopper.

As for LNER into St Pancras, the Hull Trains 802s are cleared for the usual route towards Doncaster so I would imagine a 9 coach 800 wouldn't be too hard to clear, it will just be a case of LNER getting a freight driver to route conduct from Doncaster. However just look at the overcrowding of LNER services when they have to thin out services for engineering works (i.e hourly York - Newcastle via the Durham Coast) and even a 9 coach Azuma might not be enough. Does Hull Trains still call at Doncaster on the weekends they divert into St Pancras or are they generally (passenger call wise) non-stop London to Selby?
Non stop London-Selby
 

35B

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Interesting given the actual driver may not know the route they are allocated until getting to the front of the line at the station they are told to report to.

Hypothetically consider Tiverton Parkway <> Newton Abott.
The RRB controller at Tiverton Parkway could say you are going non-stop to Newton Abott, to Exeter only or to Newton Abott via all stations.
If non-stop to Newton Abott when the driver reaches the front of the line there for the next trip the RRB controller could allocate non-stop to Tiverton Parkway, direct to Exeter, to Exeter via Teignmouth and Dawlish only or to Exeter via all stations etc.

The logical approach would be for the RRB controller to have pre-printed sheets for each option with blank sheets and a thick marker pen as backup.

The RRB operator and driver realistically only have the blank sheets and marker pen option unless a digital display is pre-programmed. More likely is just having ' Rail Replacement ' set at the depot.
I’m with @TUC on this - it’s for the railway operator to require it, and then they and the bus operator can work out the details. If the requirement isn’t there, it won’t happen.
 

TUC

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Interesting given the actual driver may not know the route they are allocated until getting to the front of the line at the station they are told to report to.

Hypothetically consider Tiverton Parkway <> Newton Abott.
The RRB controller at Tiverton Parkway could say you are going non-stop to Newton Abott, to Exeter only or to Newton Abott via all stations.
If non-stop to Newton Abott when the driver reaches the front of the line there for the next trip the RRB controller could allocate non-stop to Tiverton Parkway, direct to Exeter, to Exeter via Teignmouth and Dawlish only or to Exeter via all stations etc.

The logical approach would be for the RRB controller to have pre-printed sheets for each option with blank sheets and a thick marker pen as backup.

The RRB operator and driver realistically only have the blank sheets and marker pen option unless a digital display is pre-programmed. More likely is just having ' Rail Replacement ' set at the depot.
The core question surely has to be 'what will best meet the customer's needs?'

One thing is for sure, especially when there are RRBs going to several destination. Buses without destination boards or blinds will not meet their needs and are not acceptable.
 

Bletchleyite

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I note by the way that for the LNER rail replacement this Sunday it appears that the quotas have been fixed so not everything is showing as Anytime fares. I wonder if they saw it on here? :)
 

MrToad

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I am often amused/staggered at the extremes some passengers will go to in order to avoid a rail replacement bus. All rational thought seems to go.

I live near Farnborough in Hampshire. The line last year was often shut between Basingstoke and Woking, and there was a Rail Replacement Bus service between Farnborough and Woking.

To avoid getting the bus, someone I know who wanted to go into London drove to Basingstoke, and then got the GWR service up to Reading, and then a train to Paddington. The RRB to Woking from Farnborough took around 40 minutes compared to an 18 minute train journey, probably just over 20 minutes longer than usual. Avoiding the bus using this silly route probably took 4 times as long and twice the price.
 

Trainbike46

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It seems to be generally accepted that the Midlands Main Line is ‘full’ (at least Monday-Saturday) south of Bedford with 6 EMR services plus Thameslink partially on the Fast Lines including crossing moves.
Agreed. That's why I don't think adding loads of extra services is realistic. However, it very much is possible to run the existing pattern (6 tph EMR services) at full length using the existing 4 platforms. The entire connect service runs from platform 1 in the current timetable, so leaving that as-is, that gives 3 platforms for 4 tph.

IC services arrive at (current timetable)
.08 Sheffield
.27 Nottingham
.38 Sheffield
.57 Nottingham

IC services depart at (current timetable)
.03 Sheffield
.06 Nottingham
.32 Sheffield
.35 Nottingham

My proposal:
The .08 arrival forms the .35 departure
The .38 arrival forms the .06 departure
The .27 arrival forms the .03 departure
The .57 arrival forms the .32 departure

The .08 arrives in the platform the .03 departed from
The .38 arrives in the platform the .32 departed from
The .27 arrives in the platform the .06 departed from
The .57 arrives in the platform the .35 departed from

In this way, you get 4 tph cycling through three platforms.

Note how no service has to share platforms, all have sufficient turn-around time (25+ minutes), and this way every service can be full-length, without changing the timetable.
 

edwin_m

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Agreed. That's why I don't think adding loads of extra services is realistic. However, it very much is possible to run the existing pattern (6 tph EMR services) at full length using the existing 4 platforms. The entire connect service runs from platform 1 in the current timetable, so leaving that as-is, that gives 3 platforms for 4 tph.

IC services arrive at (current timetable)
.08 Sheffield
.27 Nottingham
.38 Sheffield
.57 Nottingham

IC services depart at (current timetable)
.03 Sheffield
.06 Nottingham
.32 Sheffield
.35 Nottingham

My proposal:
The .08 arrival forms the .35 departure
The .38 arrival forms the .06 departure
The .27 arrival forms the .03 departure
The .57 arrival forms the .32 departure

The .08 arrives in the platform the .03 departed from
The .38 arrives in the platform the .32 departed from
The .27 arrives in the platform the .06 departed from
The .57 arrives in the platform the .35 departed from

In this way, you get 4 tph cycling through three platforms.

Note how no service has to share platforms, all have sufficient turn-around time (25+ minutes), and this way every service can be full-length, without changing the timetable.
It would be preferable for the LNER units to continue north of Sheffield to either Doncaster or Leeds, to avoid another change of train for their passengers. However, this requires a timetable where the LNER units only go to Sheffield without interworking to Nottingham. On these timings that isn't achievable with two platforms unless the Nottinghams have an unrealistic 9min turnaround. Possibly some Sheffield and Nottingham paths could be swapped, or maybe the Sheffield arrivals could sit outside the station for about 5min (south of where Thameslink vacates the Fasts) until the previous Sheffield departure has cleared the platform.
 

JonathanH

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It would be preferable for the LNER units to continue north of Sheffield to either Doncaster or Leeds, to avoid another change of train for their passengers.
How many 9-car 800s could be spared for a MML operation? Through services from <southern location> to Inverness and Aberdeen would presumably need to be maintained which must occupy a fair number of them. The 5-car 800s aren't really useful in Scotland or on the MML so can be disregarded. It seems that once the Scottish services are accounted for, and any that are needed for maintenance, then there aren't actually that many 800s available for the MML to go far beyond Sheffield.
 

Segedunum

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How many 9-car 800s could be spared for a MML operation? Through services from <southern location> to Inverness and Aberdeen would presumably need to be maintained which must occupy a fair number of them. The 5-car 800s aren't really useful in Scotland or on the MML so can be disregarded. It seems that once the Scottish services are accounted for, and any that are needed for maintenance, then there aren't actually that many 800s available for the MML to go far beyond Sheffield.
On a typical Saturday (assuming a weekend block), 3/10 of the nine-car 800s don't touch either of Inverness or Aberdeen. Of course if you were running down the MML you'd be terminating rather short of London on the usual, so its possible you could spare another when rejigging diagrams.

10-car running to/from Edinburgh is quite common during engineering works but prohibited to/from Aberdeen/Inverness.
 

swaldman

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I've always felt that if a train is replaced by a bus, my train fare should be refunded to the equivalent National Express (or similar) coach fare.
We typically pay more to use the train, so if that benefit is removed...
 

The Planner

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I've always felt that if a train is replaced by a bus, my train fare should be refunded to the equivalent National Express (or similar) coach fare.
We typically pay more to use the train, so if that benefit is removed...
Presumably you would be fine if you were just compensated for the disrupted part. So if you were doing Euston Glasgow and the RRB was Preston Lancaster, that is the only bit you pay the coach equivalent for?
 

edwin_m

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How many 9-car 800s could be spared for a MML operation? Through services from <southern location> to Inverness and Aberdeen would presumably need to be maintained which must occupy a fair number of them. The 5-car 800s aren't really useful in Scotland or on the MML so can be disregarded. It seems that once the Scottish services are accounted for, and any that are needed for maintenance, then there aren't actually that many 800s available for the MML to go far beyond Sheffield.
Similar to what Avanti did for the S&C diversions, there may be scope to curtail some of the normal 9-car bi-mode workings further north to get as many of them as possible running between St Pancras and Doncaster or Leeds, even if that means some passengers have to change at unexpected places? For example, if 10-car isn't allowed north of Edinburgh, could the Aberdeen and Inverness services split there? Another constraint is that if a LNER set takes a Sheffield path and continues beyond, another one has to come south at the right time to pick up the return working.
 

swaldman

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Presumably you would be fine if you were just compensated for the disrupted part. So if you were doing Euston Glasgow and the RRB was Preston Lancaster, that is the only bit you pay the coach equivalent for?
Yes, that seems fair. Perhaps tricky to figure out, mind, given the complexity of british railway ticketing...
 

Trainbike46

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It would be preferable for the LNER units to continue north of Sheffield to either Doncaster or Leeds, to avoid another change of train for their passengers. However, this requires a timetable where the LNER units only go to Sheffield without interworking to Nottingham. On these timings that isn't achievable with two platforms unless the Nottinghams have an unrealistic 9min turnaround. Possibly some Sheffield and Nottingham paths could be swapped, or maybe the Sheffield arrivals could sit outside the station for about 5min (south of where Thameslink vacates the Fasts) until the previous Sheffield departure has cleared the platform.
It would be nice if the Sheffield services were extended to Leeds or Doncaster, yes. That would require a change in the timetable though, and I couldn't say if that would be feasible. However, I don't think that would require keeping the LNER trains away from Nottingham - you could have EMR trains be part of the services going up to Leeds/Doncaster as well.

However, if that isn't possible, extending all EMR services, by using some LNER 800s, is feasible, and would reduce the impact on passengers.

How many 9-car 800s could be spared for a MML operation? Through services from <southern location> to Inverness and Aberdeen would presumably need to be maintained which must occupy a fair number of them. The 5-car 800s aren't really useful in Scotland or on the MML so can be disregarded. It seems that once the Scottish services are accounted for, and any that are needed for maintenance, then there aren't actually that many 800s available for the MML to go far beyond Sheffield.
On a typical Saturday (assuming a weekend block), 3/10 of the nine-car 800s don't touch either of Inverness or Aberdeen. Of course if you were running down the MML you'd be terminating rather short of London on the usual, so its possible you could spare another when rejigging diagrams.
Firstly, this leads to the question, how many of those Inverness/Aberdeen services could be run by a 5-car instead, especially when the service doesn't run through to London.

Based on this post there are 19 diagrams in total to fill.

Assuming you can get 30 out of 33 810s in service, those could cover 15 diagrams. Then you would need 4 9-car 800s from LNER, or 5 from LNER if you can only get 28 810s in service. If you manage that, every single EMR IC service would be 9 or 10 cars. Based on the above, that should be doable on a day with ECML engineering works, when LNER have 13 9-car 800s.
 

Segedunum

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Firstly, this leads to the question, how many of those Inverness/Aberdeen services could be run by a 5-car instead, especially when the service doesn't run through to London.
From experience, few to none. Midweek in the winter, you might get away with it, but even then First Class loadings alone north of Newcastle easily fill most of the accommodation available on a nine-car.

Additionally, you have to get these sets up to Inverness/Aberdeen the night before and have them away the day after (which will likely be a Friday night and Monday morning), so that's two "normal" days with a shortform.

Realistically speaking, it isn't going to happen.
 
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