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Rail replacement buses vs. longer train journeys - choices by passengers in engineering works

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RJ

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The TOCs aren't very good at planning RRBs as they assume that roads are like the railway and that the journey time will be the same for every journey whatever time of day.

For example last Saturday (31/01/2026) the ECML was closed as the RRB departing Welwyn Garden City at 03:50 to Alexander Palace was scheduled to take 1 hour 20 minutes to get there, the RRB departing at 15:50 was given exactly the same time for it's journey, even though the traffic at 04:00 in the morning will be non-existant, unlike at 16:00?

They plan the RRB timings to allow time for the less able people to get from the train to the RRB and then if there are traffic delays, it is unlikely that the connecting train will be missed.

As it happens, I was looking at my records of a trip that I did on Saturday 29th May 2004 (Bank Holiday weekend on WCML so it imvolved a bus), the 18:17 Milton Keynes Central to Euston RRB was 8 minutes late leaving, but it arrived at Euston 28 minutes early at 20:15 instead of 20:43. Not that I was complaining about that, as it meant that I got home half an hour earlier than I had planned.

London Overground is an interesting one. I don't know if it's still the case, but certainly in the past TfL had their own schedules based on several timebands so running times varied through the day. This went into their own journey planner and to the bus operators and bus drivers.

Then ARL had their own which was fixed running times across the day, this was what went into the GBTT.

So there was a situation where the departure times advertised on National Rail and stations departure boards was totally different to those in the TfL journey planners and provided for the drivers to run to.

Similar situations where the times advertised to the public are completely different to the times the bus operators are given to run to happen elsewhere, to this day I'm not sure of the benefits of doing things this way!
 
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Bletchleyite

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For what it's worth in the South East I think in engineering works driving to another line is more popular than using the bus, particularly given that people drive to the station anyway. If there's no service from Milton Keynes Central to Euston, for example, Aylesbury Vale Parkway is a decent bet.
 

The Planner

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I have a week of Manchester Piccadilly being effectively closed coming up.

Normally if I go to Manchester I will go by train.

During the closure there is no way I will use a replacement bus. I won’t travel, or I’ll drive, or I’ll take a taxi. I’m lucky to have choices. But I’m not going to mess around with a bus to sit in traffic when I could be driving in traffic myself. I have no idea where the replacement bus services leave from and I don’t want to have to find out.
Stockport? Outside the main station entrance I expect
 

jfollows

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Stockport? Outside the main station entrance I expect
No, I’m sure you’re right, and I could find them for sure, but I guess my point is that I and many people won’t be using them when we’d normally take the train. What percentage of regular travellers we represent is a different matter.

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For what it's worth in the South East I think in engineering works driving to another line is more popular than using the bus, particularly given that people drive to the station anyway. If there's no service from Milton Keynes Central to Euston, for example, Aylesbury Vale Parkway is a decent bet.
Also, yes, that makes sense in the SE, but elsewhere if I’d started to drive I probably might as well drive all the way. For sure I normally walk to my local station, though.
 
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Techniquest

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This is quite an interesting topic, which I’ve thought about a bit and read the previous posts before I weigh in. I won’t lie, I’m sort-of on the fence with it.

Numerous times I’ve had trips with rail replacement buses. Some good, some awful. A fairly decent one was last year coming back from Paris, the last leg was with WMR who were having a bad day. There would eventually be a train from Birmingham to Worcester, with a replacement bus from Shrub Hill. Badly signed at Shrub Hill, tripped on a pavement and was hurt quite a bit but eventually found the bus. It was good because the minibus was really comfortable and, despite a train somehow being an option again at Ledbury and his boss insisting on dropping us off, the driver kept going and took us all the way.

Most of the time, however, if a rail replacement bus is involved I will look at other options. For example, if Hereford to Shrewsbury is closed the bus is scheduled to take 2 hours. That’s a long and boring journey up the A49, for the cost that TfW ask for these days on that route I absolutely have no interest in paying £31 for a day return. Absolutely not, I will not go! Don’t get me wrong, they usually put decent vehicles on for it, however I just don’t want to do that journey unless absolutely necessary.

Another time the bus put me off was this weekend just gone. I’d looked at the option of going to Suffolk, however it was rail replacement buses from Billericay to Beaulieu Park. Probably not too bad, however I wasn’t willing to pay £54 or whatever it was to go to Ipswich and back on a pair of 720s, then a bus and probably more 720s. Yes I’d have had direct trains on Monday, when I came back, but it just wasn’t appealing in this case. Instead, I had a red pen fest in London.

Do I think it’s a good idea to actively encourage people to use replacement buses, such as in the recent block on the ECML meaning buses ran from Bedford to Peterborough? Honestly, if the price was right, I’d have been tempted. It was not a trip I’d been looking at, so I’ve no idea on the times etc but if it was being sold at a bargain price I reckon I’d have been investigating it. No doubt plenty of people would, with a good price and a well organised operation on the buses.

A bad example of replacement buses for me was getting on for a few years back now, involving a Sunday and having the odacity to wanting to travel for a meet up with a good friend. It was train to Worcester then a replacement bus to Kidderminster, for another train forward. The bus turned up, late of course, and it was some vehicle from Diamond Buses. I had no real issue with the vehicle, it was only a relatively short journey so could be worse.

Well it was, as when we left Droitwich the driver went the way his phone told him to go. Ignoring the diversion sign on the roundabout. I did my best to find roads on Maps I knew would be suitable for a bus, which you’d think his depot team would have figured out in advance, which ended up taking us a long way around but we eventually arrived in Kidderminster. Missed the train by a country mile, of course!

Which does go to show the benefit of using an operator with actual knowledge of the route. A bus depot doing routes more local to Birmingham is not so likely to know roads suitable for buses between Worcester and Kidderminster after all!

I will add that diverted trains are sometimes no more fun than the buses! I once did a 2-car 197 from Crewe to Hereford, diverting via Chester and Wrexham. Absolutely heaving out of Crewe, tipping out significantly at Chester but still wasn’t fun for the long distance passengers crammed in.

As for the replacement buses, I booked tickets for an event at the velodrome in Manchester for later this month. Naively, I assumed it would be a case of jump on the first train of the morning and go straight to Manchester. Well no, this is the last day of a blockade between Stockport and Manchester. My options were train to Crewe, another to Warrington Bank Quay, walk to Warrington Central, train to Oxford Road then another to Piccadilly. Ugh!

What I have done instead is gone for a trip to Birmingham, running the risk of WMR on a Sunday, then XC to Stockport. Also risky but it is what it is. Coming back is also from Stockport, heading first to Crewe then to Birmingham before going back to Hereford. Much cheaper too, it runs the risk of trains not running but I can’t do much else there. I was not paying more than £73 for the hassle going via Warrington!

The reason this is relevant here is that I would go to Manchester on the replacement bus but my slightly cheaper option is to get out at Stockport and walk down the road for a Route 192 bus then head to the velodrome. More frequent and will take me more direct to where I want to go. Granted, if it’s not raining, I can walk all the way to my destination and get most of the way there before that replacement bus will get even close to Piccadilly!
 

Travelmonkey

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I did notice Cambridgshire police fined a coach on break from Rail Replacement. the company waived their annonimity right and have questioned the police on their decision,

although how popular was the Avanti Settle diversions, it was obviously worth a shot for avanti but how many non enthusiasts would go the long way round.
 

Hadders

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It's no surprise that members of a rail forum prefer a diverted train compared to a rail replacement bus, I certainly do!

It's ok saying that GBR could use LNER trains to strengthen services on the MML when the ECML is closed and that BR used to do it but is there sufficient platform capacity at St Pancras to allow this to happen?

Also, there are many more journeys nowadays than there were in the 1990s. If the ECML is closed it won't be possible to accommodate all of the displaced passengers on the MML, even if it is possible to run all MML trains at full length.
 

David Bullock

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It's no surprise that members of a rail forum prefer a diverted train compared to a rail replacement bus, I certainly do!

It's ok saying that GBR could use LNER trains to strengthen services on the MML when the ECML is closed and that BR used to do it but is there sufficient platform capacity at St Pancras to allow this to happen?

Also, there are many more journeys nowadays than there were in the 1990s. If the ECML is closed it won't be possible to accommodate all of the displaced passengers on the MML, even if it is possible to run all MML trains at full length.

I am guessing there wouldn’t be an issue with using 9 car azumas and 10 car 810s. Same half hourly frequency from sheff and notts but longer trains. A 9 car azuma is 234m so would fit at STP
 

Hadders

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I am guessing there wouldn’t be an issue with using 9 car azumas and 10 car 810s. Same half hourly frequency from sheff and notts but longer trains. A 9 car azuma is 234m so would fit at STP
I wasn’t thinking about the platform length, more about can the four platforms at St Pancras handle exclusively full length trains and maintain the timetable?
 

AlterEgo

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I am like many other posters, if the dreaded words 'bus for part of journey' appear, either drive or don't go.
Same here. The recent Avanti S+C diverts were a bit of a dogs dinner but they still provided a more attractive service than buses.
 

brad465

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For what it's worth in the South East I think in engineering works driving to another line is more popular than using the bus, particularly given that people drive to the station anyway. If there's no service from Milton Keynes Central to Euston, for example, Aylesbury Vale Parkway is a decent bet.
The Dartford lines are a prime example of this: if any one line is shut, passengers can go to the nearest station on a different line that's running. Crayford being my prime example, I've either been driven to or cycled to Barnehurst or Slade Green and travelled from there. Sometimes going to Swanley is viable, particularly when heading into Kent and Dartford-Gravesend is shut. Elsewhere I suspect Ebbsfleet, which is already a prominent parkway station, gets more passengers when other lines, such as the North Kent or Chatham mainline, don't have London services.

When I lived in Maidstone there appeared to be a general rule that Southeastern would not prevent going to London from Maidstone on a given day, so if one of the two lines through the town was at least partially closed, the other would be fully open (the Medway Valley line doesn't have direct London services off-peak, but changing at Strood or Paddock Wood is an option when the Maidstone East line was closed). I wouldn't be surprised if a similar principle exists in Canterbury, and maybe somewhere like Dorking too, which would mean that both RRBs and an extended car journey to an alternative station can be avoided.
 

Tetragon213

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Inertia is a surprisingly powerful thing.

About 10 years ago, something happened on the line between Grateley and Andover which blocked it in that direction. SWT, iirc, was operating services via Romsey and up to Basingstoke. Despite the fact that getting on the RRB to get to Andover would have been faster than going to Basingstoke and then doubling back, there were a lot of Bishops/South Wilts students on the platform at Basingstoke waiting for the shuttle into Andover!
 

Class83

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I did notice Cambridgshire police fined a coach on break from Rail Replacement. the company waived their annonimity right and have questioned the police on their decision,

although how popular was the Avanti Settle diversions, it was obviously worth a shot for avanti but how many non enthusiasts would go the long way round.
The Avanti Settle diversion would have been better if they could run direct trains from Glasgow-Birmingham that way, but due to limited diesel stock it involved 2 changes. Though no coaches possible so it was only choice, for normal WCML closures, coaches on M6 simpler, but passengers may just book a coach to save changing if there is a direct one in their route.

For London Edinburgh then ECML made more sense.

But my general approach is minimise changing as it's more things to go wrong during disruption.
 

TUC

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Passengers auite reasonably ask why they should pay train fares for a bus journe. A diverted train is viewed very differentl.

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This is certainly a bit of an issue, but there have been murmurings (though I forget where) about whether just putting "rail replacement choo choo" or nothing on the front blind is considered compliant with the road vehicle accessibility regulations (forget what they're called) or not - and these regulations do apply to rail replacement, hence the requirement for all vehicles to be accessible the same as for a public local bus or coach service. I've certainly noticed that increasingly correct destinations are actually displayed so I suspect things are being said and done about it.
Disabled people are as capable as anyone else of knowing what 'rail replacement choo choo' means, and find it as funny as anyone else. Accessibility is about far more important issues than that.
 
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Sad Sprinter

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I avoid RRB like the plague. I’ve only ever got on a couple, for relatively short journeys. But the thought of getting a train, bus and train again, is just awful. And I really don’t particularly enjoy road travel at all. (In fact, rail travel is the only form of travel I find comfortable). I’d rather a crazy long diversion by rail than a bus. Southern is good at this with their Brighton diversions, which whilst looking completely mad, at least retain a service from Victoria to Brighton. Greater Anglia seem to give up diverting their Norwich trains via Bishops Stortford to London and rely on RRBs.

Last year instead of travelling from London to Cardiff via a bus from Bristol, I caught a Cotswold Line train to Hereford then a TfW train to Cardiff. It was a perfectly pleasant journey, accept Hereford was not the quantity market town I assumed it to be, and the TfW train was really a bit cramped for what is an intercity journey, it was seamless, quick and more interesting than getting the bus.
 

Via Bank

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After many appalling experiences with replacement buses/coaches on the South Western if we’re visiting family and there are no direct trains, we now get National Express instead. At least that way the driver will be courteous and professional.

No doubt if we had a car, we would drive instead.
 

A S Leib

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I would support tickets being valid by alternative train-only routes at the usual price of the direct route when buses are provided, even if the journey is much longer than usual as a result. E.g. Cambridge-London tickets become valid via Peterborough. (In some cases the bus takes so much longer that the roundabout train route actually takes about the same time or less, but currently you have to pay a lot more for the train in these circumstances.)
A few days ago, I went to Hannover, and decided to get a Sparpreis ticket back from Göttingen instead; I didn't know that there were rail replacement buses between Nordstemmen and Banteln. I suspect DB Fernverkehr wouldn't have liked having to accept D-Ticket and other non-intercity tickets.

Sticking with that example but one which applies to the UK as well; if a rail replacement bus isn't scheduled to arrive from another journey a few minutes before forming the next service, it would improve the passenger experience to turn up more than a minute before scheduled departure. That's particularly the case in bad weather.
 

Bletchleyite

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Disabled people are as capable as anyone else of knowing what 'rail replacement choo choo' means, and find it as funny as anyone else. Accessibility is about far more important issues than that.

It is argued that PSVAR requires the use of the destination equipment to display the destination etc (I don't know if that's actually explicit, though). Putting that joke on there (or just "rail replacement") isn't hugely more use than a service bus just displaying "Stagecoach" to anyone, but a deaf person for instance may find it harder to ask for clarification.
 

Snow1964

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Although it isn't published, I suspect internally the rail industry can look at its ticket sales for a weekend with RRB vs a weekend without, and thus gets a pretty good idea of the percentage reduction in revenue. Not just for the stations directly affected, but for journeys using the route where ticket was bought miles away to.

Doesn't appear that difficult to filter data, using origin and destination matrix as a guide, to pick say 50 busiest routes from each station affected, or where it is clearly on a busy route, eg if there was buses at Milton Keynes affecting a Euston-Coventry journey.

My hunch is RRBs lose about 80-90% of fare income as most people either do not travel (and don't go alternative date), or they drive, or use coach instead. I might be wrong, but if I'm close losing around 0.85 x 1/363 of revenue (around quarter of one percent) on each day of RRB.

It probably used to be less loss when there was more business travel weekdays, but some routes seem busier at weekends, so might not be best day to pick.
 

BazingaTribe

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"peasant wagons". Classy.
Yup. I would often rather take a bus than a train, particularly with holiday luggage. RRBs might be awful but they've got me home when the train couldn't.

Most of the time when an RRB pops up en route the journey is easier than by train anyway. The Basingstoke/Reading line gets jammed a couple of times a year by freight trains, and the resulting journey via Guildford and Woking is probably longer than the RRB would be, given that it involves a figure of eight loop in the wrong direction. (I call it the Sci-fi slingshot as it goes to Guildford, mentioned in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and Woking, where the Martians landed in War of the Worlds. I coined the phrase 'the chances of anything coming from West Byfleet are a million to one, he said' on one particularly arduous journey, by RRB on the way home from Chessington one year, but I digress.) Even if the RRB takes a while to get down the A33 and has to go via Mortimer and Bramley, it's still quicker.

And, as I said, if I'm carrying a lot of luggage and going to the right airport, a coach does me fine anyway. Gatwick is harder, but most of my recent trips have been through Heathrow, where there's a direct bus from Basingstoke and Reading, so the stuff just goes in the hold anyway.

I have commited once by RRB but again, at that point, the available rail diversion would make me as equally late as the RRB would, and so the timing is shot anyway.
 
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Trainbike46

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Also, there are many more journeys nowadays than there were in the 1990s. If the ECML is closed it won't be possible to accommodate all of the displaced passengers on the MML, even if it is possible to run all MML trains at full length.
I agree it wouldn't be able to take all the displaced passengers, but it would be able to take more than if trains aren't extended.

I wasn’t thinking about the platform length, more about can the four platforms at St Pancras handle exclusively full length trains and maintain the timetable?
I think it should be possible.

There's 4 high level platforms for EMR.
1 is used for the 360s to/from Corby.
That leaves three platforms for 4tph to Sheffield/Nottingham. If all trains are full length, there will be no splitting/joining, and there will be no need to keep any train to a particular service. That should fit, but would require new/different diagrams for the day.
 

fishwomp

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This week Oxford has the bridge deck out south of the platforms, so the choice is XC bus replacement or the usual GWR Banbury stopper (doesn't run every hour..)

Bus is scheduled 1h5, stopper is 30 mins.

Passengers are being directed to the bus of course, but those who know are voting with their feet. Even if that stopper leaves 30 mins later than the official bus, I knew which I wanted to use!

Shame GWR didn't find a 3-car to run this...
 

pokemonsuper9

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It is argued that PSVAR requires the use of the destination equipment to display the destination etc (I don't know if that's actually explicit, though). Putting that joke on there (or just "rail replacement") isn't hugely more use than a service bus just displaying "Stagecoach" to anyone, but a deaf person for instance may find it harder to ask for clarification.
At least if it says a rail replacement you can know it's worth going to ask where they're going.
I've only seems couple rail replacements to display the destination (and a few have had paper stop lists by the door)

The ideal would presumably be
- rail symbol where route number would be
- destination name
- line below listing stops
But obviously plenty of coaches don't have displays at all.
 

Bantamzen

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My rule of thumb tends to be avoid RRBs if at all possible, especially where the disruption is unplanned.

The last time I had the option of RRBs was during some disruption along the Calder Valley. RRBs had been organised from Manchester Vic towards Todmorden, but oddly nothing was showing as going from there to Hebden Bridge and beyond. So armed with the knowledge I might end up having to use a local bus as part of the journey, I instead opted to take my chances and stay on the platform. Which worked nicely, because shortly after the RRB was due to leave a service finally boarded to make the first run up the Calder. However it was very full, and was the only one for a while after as units & crews recovered positions, which could have meant anyone using the RRB could have got to Todmorden only to find a later service from Manchester full to the gills, and not being able to board.
 

miami

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I was surprised a couple of weeks ago with an RRB late at night on the Crewe to Shrewsbury line

Went upstairs at Crewe to the bus stop, no sign of a bus. No sign of staff. No sign of signs pointing to the replacement bus. The screens said it left from the "Horse Landing". Turns out this is the name of a road.

What the actually mean is go down a dimly lit corridor to an out of the way platform that's rarely used (12), then go to another disused platform hidden away, through a building site, then go to a locked gate and leave through it and hope that's the right one.

There are a couple of badly lit signs but not the same signs as "platform 1-5" or "platform 12", no signs in the ticket hall, or the bus stop where normal buses stop.
 

styles

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I was surprised a couple of weeks ago with an RRB late at night on the Crewe to Shrewsbury line

Went upstairs at Crewe to the bus stop, no sign of a bus. No sign of staff. No sign of signs pointing to the replacement bus. The screens said it left from the "Horse Landing". Turns out this is the name of a road.

What the actually mean is go down a dimly lit corridor to an out of the way platform that's rarely used (12), then go to another disused platform hidden away, through a building site, then go to a locked gate and leave through it and hope that's the right one.

There are a couple of badly lit signs but not the same signs as "platform 1-5" or "platform 12", no signs in the ticket hall, or the bus stop where normal buses stop.
Crewe is bad for this.

They really need a larger area out front of the main entrance where they can sufficiently hold both rail replacement buses and taxis. At the moment is holds a small number of taxis.
 

GarethC

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My experience is that most people will just follow what their preferred journey planner says, regardless of what is happening. If it says replacement bus they may decide not to travel, or they may not even notice until they are travelling (and look at the journey in the app).

In my own experience there are significant differences between operators and planning. Greater Anglia on the mainline I have always found to be very organised, though I've only normally been travelling from end to end of the route (not at intermediate stations). The main issues have normally been cars parked on the access roads to the stations at Ingatestone or Witham causing issues for the buses getting through. Often I've been ahead of schedule (often I've been in time for the preceding train from Billericay). Scheduling connections must be a minefield, making it too long (to absolve any traffic issues) extends journey times and increases waits unnecessarily, but making the timings tighter risks missed connections.

Travelling in December 2024 between East Anglia and Nottingham. The Midland Mainline was closed into St Pancras so the journey planners were routing Nottingham-Grantham-Kings Cross. There were lots of confused people at Grantham heading south who had boarded at Nottingham expecting to go straight to London (as they hadn't checked the journey plan). It didn't help that on the day the Skegness services were all cancelled in the morning so it was the Norwich-Liverpool services picking up the extra strain - where there was no capacity. On the return in the afternoon we were delayed leaving Nottingham as there was a discussing going on between station staff, train crew and control about keeping the extra Class 158 on to Norwich (so capacity was there between Nottingham and Grantham). In an ideal world this would have been pre-planned, does anyone know if any modelling takes place of where journey planners are going to route people during planned disruption and RRBs?

Same issue of people blindly following journey plans happens on the roads, with people often taking convoluted routes which technically save 2-3 minutes on the direct journey, but end up taking much longer as the traffic builds or you can't drive as fast as the modelling suggests.

Gareth
 

pokemonsuper9

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My rule of thumb tends to be avoid RRBs if at all possible, especially where the disruption is unplanned.

The last time I had the option of RRBs was during some disruption along the Calder Valley. RRBs had been organised from Manchester Vic towards Todmorden, but oddly nothing was showing as going from there to Hebden Bridge and beyond. So armed with the knowledge I might end up having to use a local bus as part of the journey, I instead opted to take my chances and stay on the platform. Which worked nicely, because shortly after the RRB was due to leave a service finally boarded to make the first run up the Calder. However it was very full, and was the only one for a while after as units & crews recovered positions, which could have meant anyone using the RRB could have got to Todmorden only to find a later service from Manchester full to the gills, and not being able to board.
I was caught in that too.
Fortunately my trip was just a day out on trains, so I just went home and got a refund.

I never left the station so never saw if the buses ever existed.


I haven't used a rail replacement bus since August 2023, although I have used regular service buses instead of rail replacements to get into Manchester once in the time since.
 

edwin_m

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Although it isn't published, I suspect internally the rail industry can look at its ticket sales for a weekend with RRB vs a weekend without, and thus gets a pretty good idea of the percentage reduction in revenue. Not just for the stations directly affected, but for journeys using the route where ticket was bought miles away to.

Doesn't appear that difficult to filter data, using origin and destination matrix as a guide, to pick say 50 busiest routes from each station affected, or where it is clearly on a busy route, eg if there was buses at Milton Keynes affecting a Euston-Coventry journey.

My hunch is RRBs lose about 80-90% of fare income as most people either do not travel (and don't go alternative date), or they drive, or use coach instead. I might be wrong, but if I'm close losing around 0.85 x 1/363 of revenue (around quarter of one percent) on each day of RRB.

It probably used to be less loss when there was more business travel weekdays, but some routes seem busier at weekends, so might not be best day to pick.
Complicated by the likelihood that many who don't actually travel on the disruption day will travel on another day instead, and this might be the day that was used as the comparator. So a simple comparison will overestimate the impact, but it's probably hard to work out how much. Nevertheless I believe something like this is done, because the cost of disruptive engineering work includes compensating franchised operators for lost revenue as well as the costs of running the RRBs.

On balance business travellers are probably less likely to be able to re-schedule in this way - visiting a friend or going shopping is more flexible than the sort of meeting or conference that can't be done online. This may be a reason to schedule disruptions for days when there is less business travel, another being that the time between start and end of service is often shorter so there may be less hours of disruption for the same amount of engineering time.
 

The Planner

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15 Apr 2008
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19,628
Crewe is bad for this.

They really need a larger area out front of the main entrance where they can sufficiently hold both rail replacement buses and taxis. At the moment is holds a small number of taxis.
Why, when you can use the Weston Road car park. There is no way you can do anything out the front.
 
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