Rail replacement buses vs. longer train journeys - choices by passengers in engineering works

[Bletchleyite]

Just shows that even if you run a frequent replacement bus service most passengers if given the option will choice rail, even if it takes longer.

See also demand on Chiltern whenever the WCML is closed at the southern end. Also no doubt usage of Chiltern between Oxford & London will increase this week due to no GWR services with the block.

I think people are largely blindly doing what the journey planners tell them to do, and with split ticketing that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be a permitted route. I was playing about a bit at the weekend and I noticed for instance that for going to Edinburgh from London most people were offered either via EMR and the replacement bus at Anytime Single rate, or cheaper Advances via the WCML from Euston (as a result of which the Sunday morning 0845 MKC-Edinburgh was pretty busy when that train would usually be nearly empty). Even ignoring that people will generally prefer a through train over a replacement bus, that's no contest - nobody in their right mind is going to pay three times as much for an inferior journey. I'd strongly suspect that those Anytime fares on Sunday were only sold to the filthy rich and business travellers.

Whereas before you knew if you were going to go from London to Edinburgh you went from Kings Cross, and you'd just show up there with your Saver Return and follow what the staff said, probably not having properly checked the timetable and assumed it'd be as per the printed one you had in your desk drawer. You might be miffed that there was a RRB, but unless the staff specifically sent you to Euston, which they likely wouldn't, you'd just go along with it fuming as you went.

I believe if you force something like "calls at Flitwick" onto the journey plan to ensure you are put on Thameslink you do get Advances on the RRB route though. Not getting them on the EMR services is a quota issue which I doubt is actually intentional, but even if it is the journey planners aren't showing the good value fares that way and so people are pushed hard towards the WCML.

Of course if the LNER fare increase trial is the future, there's going to need to be a change to how journey planners work - they're going to need to be better at showing things by price rather than just showing the fastest trains with a price against each. Clearly nobody was going to pay £200-odd when they could pay £70 or whatever it was via the WCML, but they equally would have no idea of needing to enter "via and calling at Flitwick" to get the cheap ECML fares, and even where they were told that (which I think LNER has done in the past) they probably wouldn't understand it. And I don't even think the current LNER app can do that.

 

[Bevan Price]

On my various travels, I find that if it is known in advance that rail replacement buses are involved, many people choose not to travel on that day. Experience is that most replacement buses can be poorly timed, painfully slow, and not trusted to make any onward connections.

 

[Swedenorer]

On my various travels, I find that if it is known in advance that rail replacement buses are involved, many people choose not to travel on that day. Experience is that most replacement buses can be poorly timed, painfully slow, and not trusted to make any onward connections.

That certainly applies to me these days. If a RRB is involved I don't travel. Not only due to the inconvenience but the fact that the same fare us charged even though the RRB is usually a decker of dubious quality. Some of us too are old enough to remember when possessions were a good deal shorter in distance blocked and, in the SR at least, timed to allow a train service to be resumed for Sunday evening. Sadly the convenience of the passenger is at the very bottom of the list these days.

 

[boiledbeans2]

[...] nobody in their right mind is going to pay three times as much for an inferior journey.
[...]

What do you mean by pay?

 

[JonathanH]

I believe if you force something like "calls at Flitwick" onto the journey plan to ensure you are put on Thameslink you do get Advances on the RRB route though. Not getting them on the EMR services is a quota issue which I doubt is actually intentional, but even if it is the journey planners aren't showing the good value fares that way and so people are pushed hard towards the WCML.

One of the subsidiary problems in the plan is that Thameslink trains are now reservable. Do they have additional quotas added to allow LNER advances to even be valid on them during this engineering work at a rate cheaper than splitting on other routes.

 

[TUC]

It is the painfully slow timings of RRBs that put me off using them. Those setting the timetables seem divorced from any knowledge, or even application of common sense, as to how long journeys will take.

 

[Ian Hardy]

It is the painfully slow timings of RRBs that put me off using them. Those setting the timetables seem divorced from any knowledge, or even application of common sense, as to how long journeys will take.

The TOCs aren't very good at planning RRBs as they assume that roads are like the railway and that the journey time will be the same for every journey whatever time of day.

For example last Saturday (31/01/2026) the ECML was closed as the RRB departing Welwyn Garden City at 03:50 to Alexander Palace was scheduled to take 1 hour 20 minutes to get there, the RRB departing at 15:50 was given exactly the same time for it's journey, even though the traffic at 04:00 in the morning will be non-existant, unlike at 16:00?

They plan the RRB timings to allow time for the less able people to get from the train to the RRB and then if there are traffic delays, it is unlikely that the connecting train will be missed.

As it happens, I was looking at my records of a trip that I did on Saturday 29th May 2004 (Bank Holiday weekend on WCML so it imvolved a bus), the 18:17 Milton Keynes Central to Euston RRB was 8 minutes late leaving, but it arrived at Euston 28 minutes early at 20:15 instead of 20:43. Not that I was complaining about that, as it meant that I got home half an hour earlier than I had planned.

 

[andy33gmail]

I would always try to avoid travelling instead of getting a rail replacement bus.

Last time I had social plans in London and the trains were replaced by peasant wagons, I drove - which entailed waiting around 20 mins in a service station to avoid the congestion charging tax. Similarly, on the way back from a holiday in Europe, we just got a taxi for the last leg instead.

One's a serious mode of transport running on a dedicated corridor, and one is a last resort

Now I remember ... over a decade ago, I was asking a member of staff how to get between two nearby stations. He explained the three lines I'd need to take one or two stops between, or that there was a direct bus, and was surprised at my course of action

 

[Kite159]

The main issues I have with replacement buses is the timetable doesn't match what happens on the day with missing buses. Also at times you can end up queuing if it's busy and buses are departing full.

Add on extended journey times and potential of missed connections as the train might not wait for the bus if it gets caught up in traffic, especially if it's somewhere where the guard's vision is blocked (ie Andover.

 

[The Planner]

I would always try to avoid travelling instead of getting a rail replacement bus.

Last time I had social plans in London and the trains were replaced by peasant wagons, I drove - which entailed waiting around 20 mins in a service station to avoid the congestion charging tax. Similarly, on the way back from a holiday in Europe, we just got a taxi for the last leg instead.

One's a serious mode of transport running on a dedicated corridor, and one is a last resort

Now I remember ... over a decade ago, I was asking a member of staff how to get between two nearby stations. He explained the three lines I'd need to take one or two stops between, or that there was a direct bus, and was surprised at my course of action

"peasant wagons". Classy.

 

[Viper]

I'd much rather use a train with a connection than a bus. I really don't like the claustrophobia of a bus; they're usually much darker inside and you have less personal space. I am quite envious of the people who happily get a megabus to travel the country; I appreciate the cost benefit but the envy relates to their resilience!

I imagine it would be very difficult for journey planners to show all the potential routes to get from A to B as there would be so many weird and wonderful ways to do it.

 

[Kite159]

And sometimes what buses are shown on the timetable don't match what occurs on the ground.

For example engineering works with replacement buses between station A and station B calling at 5 stations along the way in the timetable however on the day there are unadvertised express buses running from A to B cutting the journey time down by half. But as they are not advertised within the timetable they don't show on journey planners.

 

[Trainbike46]

To some extend people taking a different route during engineering works will be unavoidable. I've done London-Liverpool via Leeds during engineering works on the WCML. On a different occasion I did that journey via reading due to a combination of severe disruption and engineering works.

So to some extend, I think the railway should get better at increasing capacity on alternative routes. So for example, if the ECML is closed, some 9-car 80x (from LNER) should be used to ensure that every train on the MML is 9 or 10-car long. It might also be worth considering if it is possible to extend the Sheffield services to Leeds, though I imagine that could be too challenging due to route knowledge and timetabling restrictions.

 

[Jim the Jim]

RRBs have been so frequent in the Cambridge area over the last few years at weekends that it reaches a point where you choose to travel anyway, even if normally you would just stay at home when there isn't a train. At least the buses are relatively well-run in this case.

I would support tickets being valid by alternative train-only routes at the usual price of the direct route when buses are provided, even if the journey is much longer than usual as a result. E.g. Cambridge-London tickets become valid via Peterborough. (In some cases the bus takes so much longer that the roundabout train route actually takes about the same time or less, but currently you have to pay a lot more for the train in these circumstances.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

To some extend people taking a different route during engineering works will be unavoidable. I've done London-Liverpool via Leeds during engineering works on the WCML. On a different occasion I did that journey via reading due to a combination of severe disruption and engineering works.

So to some extend, I think the railway should get better at increasing capacity on alternative routes. So for example, if the ECML is closed, some 9-car 80x (from LNER) should be used to ensure that every train on the MML is 9 or 10-car long. It might also be worth considering if it is possible to extend the Sheffield services to Leeds, though I imagine that could be too challenging due to route knowledge and timetabling restrictions.

I think this is something GBR is likely to be able to do a bit better, though probably not quite to the level of 1980s BR, if it puts its mind to it, because it has that single guiding mind. OK, MML drivers will sign 810s and not 800s, but equally it may be in more of a position to do something like have ECML drivers drive them conducted by MML drivers rather than just saying "can't do" because in the present railway the contractual situation required to do this is just too complicated and costly.

I think it's probably also more likely Advance quotas between "LNER" and "Thameslink" will line up properly (thus avoiding the nonsense situation of people being charged more for a journey with a bus than a journey by train) if the same guiding mind is setting up both rather than two entirely separate companies.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

On my various travels, I find that if it is known in advance that rail replacement buses are involved, many people choose not to travel on that day. Experience is that most replacement buses can be poorly timed, painfully slow, and not trusted to make any onward connections.

The biggest issue for me is reliability. Unless you're catching the RRB from its start point, there's no guarantee what time it will turn up, or if it will turn up at all. And if it does, there's usually no indication it's a RRB, nor what its destination is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The biggest issue for me is reliability. Unless you're catching the RRB from its start point, there's no guarantee what time it will turn up, or if it will turn up at all. And if it does, there's usually no indication it's a RRB, nor what its destination is.

This is certainly a bit of an issue, but there have been murmurings (though I forget where) about whether just putting "rail replacement choo choo" or nothing on the front blind is considered compliant with the road vehicle accessibility regulations (forget what they're called) or not - and these regulations do apply to rail replacement, hence the requirement for all vehicles to be accessible the same as for a public local bus or coach service. I've certainly noticed that increasingly correct destinations are actually displayed so I suspect things are being said and done about it.

 

[Julia]

Recently I've noticed that RRBs on busy routes - like the recent East Grinstead - Three Bridges one - have larger numbers of vehicles on standby, the downside is that they are either high-floor coaches which take forever to load due to people's luggage (and I don't want delicate stuff thrown in the boot!!), or clapped-out saloons. Got the latter on my most recent journey, a 22-year-old Volvo whose engine cut out three times in various rural backwaters, ended up having to get the driver to flag down a subsequent bus and travel sitting on the stairs, which can't have been road-legal... but with them generally being despatched when full, I could have waited forever in the rain in the middle of nowhere for one to appear with a spare seat.

 

[35B]

ECML works disrupted my wife's travel last weekend, and will do mine in a week's time.

In both cases, the journeys have been planned to avoid the RRB. One involved using ticket availability knowledge to travel via Cambridge; the other will use EMR to travel to East Midlands and accept a car journey.

The thought of the extra changes, and unreliable connections, on an RRB mean that we will not travel using an RRB.

 

[NER1621]

The ECML works disrupted my journey home from London to Darlington last Saturday. As I knew this would be the case I bought a super off-peak single from London Terminals to Darlington for my return journey valid on all permitted routes (I’d gone out on an LNER Advance to KX).

I just turned up at St Pancras early afternoon as EMR were not accepting seat reservations on any of their MML services.

Ignored the LNER staff at St Pancras who were presumably there to direct passengers to Thameslink to connect with the RRB bus from Bedford to Peterborough. Joined the queue for the EMR 14:02 to Sheffield. Grabbed an airline window seat in the standard section of the composite coach D and had the pair all to myself all journey because despite the train being rammed nearly everyone on the platforms assumed that the whole of coach D was first class and walked past it.

Ignored the journey planner advising me to change at Derby onto CrossCountry and stayed on to Sheffield. The connecting CrossCountry service, as expected, was rammed and standing in vestibules and aisles so I let it go, had a coffee and a sandwich, and caught the Northern Scarborough train to Doncaster, connecting into LNER for the last leg to Darlo. Arrived 30 mins earlier than if I’d followed the LNER advice to use Thameslink plus RRB.

1. Shows the value of single-leg ticketing in being able to get tickets to suit the differing needs of each journey leg.
2. Shows the customer value of the super off-peak ticket valid all permitted routes - which of course LNER want to get rid of. LNER Advances for purchase on Saturday were priced at 20p lower than the super off-peak: had that ticket not existed they would have been triple the price.
3. Much pleasanter and comfortable journey by connecting trains for me and my luggage than by using RRB
4. The LNER train I connected into at Doncaster (an Edinburgh service) appeared to be hauling mainly fresh air: certainly in the first four standard coaches. So perhaps more evidence that RRB dissuade travellers, and that the capacity would have been better added to the MML: get working on this idea GBR.

 

[edwin_m]

On my various travels, I find that if it is known in advance that rail replacement buses are involved, many people choose not to travel on that day. Experience is that most replacement buses can be poorly timed, painfully slow, and not trusted to make any onward connections.

So to some extend, I think the railway should get better at increasing capacity on alternative routes. So for example, if the ECML is closed, some 9-car 80x (from LNER) should be used to ensure that every train on the MML is 9 or 10-car long.

This has really got to start happening - MML is virtually unuseable when the ECML is closed. I think it was being discussed for LNER to run into St Pancras but this suggests it hasn't happened. Reservation quotas should leave space for MML passengers too!

Tightening up the bus schedules sounds like an easy win too.

The operators have been trying to encourage people to take the route involving the bus, but in the absence of the measures suggested above I doubt it's been very successful: https://westbridgfordwire.com/rail-...-be-incredibly-busy-all-weekends-in-february/

Because of the work, EMR services from Sheffield and Nottingham towards London St Pancras are expected to be incredibly busy, with the potential for trains to be standing room only.

To help spread demand and support customers to have a smoother and more comfortable journey, LNER and EMR are encouraging those travelling to and from LNER stations to use the dedicated rail replacement services, using accessible, clean and modern coaches.
...
Philippa Cresswell, Customer Experience Director at EMR, said: “We’re working closely with LNER and Network Rail to help customers make informed choices during this important programme of engineering work.

“To have the most predictable and comfortable journey possible, we strongly encourage customers travelling to and from the North East, Yorkshire and Scotland to follow the recommended East Coast Main Line routes and use the dedicated rail replacement services provided.

“Taking this advice will help spread demand more evenly across the network and help customers plan their journeys with confidence during the engineering work.”

I would support tickets being valid by alternative train-only routes at the usual price of the direct route when buses are provided, even if the journey is much longer than usual as a result.

I can see why people want this but it does sometimes also create overcrowding problems on the alternative routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The operators have been trying to encourage people to take the route involving the bus, but in the absence of the measures suggested above I doubt it's been very successful: https://westbridgfordwire.com/rail-...-be-incredibly-busy-all-weekends-in-february/

If they heavily priced people that way it might work. People will take inconvenience if it's cheap, e.g. changing at Crewe when going from Manchester to London to take advantage of the very cheap WMT fares.

The difficulty is that most if not all sales sites don't show you the cheapest fares - for London to Edinburgh on Sunday when I was playing on LNER it was just showing me the fastest which was showing Anytime fares. Trainline was at least showing splits, but they weren't the best value options by a stretch except when it came up with WCML journeys.

 

[Snow1964]

I am like many other posters, if the dreaded words 'bus for part of journey' appear, either drive or don't go.

Can't think of a single case in last 10-15 years where we travelled on a different day to avoid the bus. It is take car instead, not rearrange your week (and I am retired now, so it's not like I have to fit trips around work days).

 

[johntea]

This is certainly a bit of an issue, but there have been murmurings (though I forget where) about whether just putting "rail replacement choo choo" or nothing on the front blind is considered compliant with the road vehicle accessibility regulations (forget what they're called) or not - and these regulations do apply to rail replacement, hence the requirement for all vehicles to be accessible the same as for a public local bus or coach service. I've certainly noticed that increasingly correct destinations are actually displayed so I suspect things are being said and done about it.

I can't remember the coach operator but one that Transpenine Express laid on over Christmas was extremely impressive, destination screen on the front clearly displaying 'Rail Replacement X to Y', then on board visual and audio announcements throughout of the calling points!

I have been on some so bad to the extent the driver doesn't really have much of a clue where they're actually going though...luck of the draw

 

[Kite159]

The biggest issue for me is reliability. Unless you're catching the RRB from its start point, there's no guarantee what time it will turn up, or if it will turn up at all. And if it does, there's usually no indication it's a RRB, nor what its destination is.

And depending on the station, no guarantee where the bus will actually pop up in relation to the station. I've lost count how many times the bus has stopped at the top of the road leading to my local station to unload (and load) rather than going along the road into the station car park. So anybody waiting by the station entrance won't see the replacement coach come & go and be left wondering where it is.

 

[InTheEastMids]

I think the railway should get better at increasing capacity on alternative routes. So for example, if the ECML is closed, some 9-car 80x (from LNER) should be used to ensure that every train on the MML is 9 or 10-car long.

This has really got to start happening - MML is virtually unuseable when the ECML is closed. I think it was being discussed for LNER to run into St Pancras but this suggests it hasn't happened. Reservation quotas should leave space for MML passengers too!

I'd throw my weight behind this idea. I do understand at least some of the barriers that currently prevent suggestions like using spare LNER stock to add capacity to the MML actually happening. However, a lot of it is directly or indirectly due to the mess that GBR is supposed to be sweeping away.

Custiomer may instead, observe that their IC departure from St Pancras on Sunday was a crush-loaded 5-car service, and wonder why much larger operators, LNER and EMR are completely powerless to do anything when the 80x from tiny operator Hull Trains chugs into view.

When you take a step back, it is pretty incoherent to keep telling the public that both the MML is full, but also it's completely impossible to run an IC train that's more than 125 metres long on a day when you know it is going to be extra busy.

Pertinent to the thread, would also draw attention to a video doing the rounds on one social media platform which appears to show a Bedford-Peterborough RRB. Driver is chatting away on his hands free and thumbing through a pile of paper perched on the steering wheel whilst driving. Not a great advert for RRB.

 

[Travelmonkey]

I know RRBs also cause issues when a TUAG wheelchair appears. @Kieran_MF135 can tell you 1st hand of his woes with them.

I did have Rail Replacement Taxi provided to me on a recent North Staffs line closure which was quite nice to be dropped at my front door. although I do prefer a through train route rather than bus uncertainty.

 

[moonarrow458]

The biggest issue for me is reliability. Unless you're catching the RRB from its start point, there's no guarantee what time it will turn up, or if it will turn up at all. And if it does, there's usually no indication it's a RRB, nor what its destination is.

This is certainly a bit of an issue, but there have been murmurings (though I forget where) about whether just putting "rail replacement choo choo" or nothing on the front blind is considered compliant with the road vehicle accessibility regulations (forget what they're called) or not - and these regulations do apply to rail replacement, hence the requirement for all vehicles to be accessible the same as for a public local bus or coach service. I've certainly noticed that increasingly correct destinations are actually displayed so I suspect things are being said and done about it.

I 100% agree on these points. It is especially stressful trying to intercept a Rail Replacement Bus mid-route. I don't have much experience of using RRBs but i remember a couple of years ago doing a hike that ended at Betchworth and needing to get to Redhill to go back towards London. The North Downs Line was shut with RRBs operating, and the posters at Betchworth station said the RRB would not directly serve the station but would stop at the roundabout on the A25 Reigate Road.

All well and good except there is no bus stop by the roundabout on the A25. No temporary pole or signs where one was to stand, so we had had to stand on a narrow grass verge on the entry to the roundabout in the fading light (as it was the evening) and just frantically wave down anything that remotely looked like a rail replacement bus service, hoping that they would notice us and be able to safely stop in time. Note also there wasn't even a layby so the RRB would block traffic to stop and pick us up. In the end it was running 10 minutes late and was operated by a high floor coach and it was certainly not clear that it was a rail replacement bus. That was an incredibly stressful experience that i would not be keen to repeat.

 

[jfollows]

I have a week of Manchester Piccadilly being effectively closed coming up.

Normally if I go to Manchester I will go by train.

During the closure there is no way I will use a replacement bus. I won’t travel, or I’ll drive, or I’ll take a taxi. I’m lucky to have choices. But I’m not going to mess around with a bus to sit in traffic when I could be driving in traffic myself. I have no idea where the replacement bus services leave from and I don’t want to have to find out.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

On my various travels, I find that if it is known in advance that rail replacement buses are involved, many people choose not to travel on that day. Experience is that most replacement buses can be poorly timed, painfully slow, and not trusted to make any onward connections.

Anecdotally that is what I have heard and also probably what I would do. In the old days with rare haulage possibilities and routes it would be different!