Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[dk1]

Good job it is. But what happens if you need an extended stay in the station loos? your train zooms off without you?

Normally the guard will count them in & out. No idea if this happens with DOO but I can’t see how it could.

 

[Amos390]

Normally the guard will count them in & out. No idea if this happens with DOO but I can’t see how it could.

Also I'm sure that'll be quite annoying if someone were to get off at the wrong door after not hearing an announcement stating 'If you need the toilet, use _ door'

 

[absolutelymilk]

Also I'm sure that'll be quite annoying if someone were to get off at the wrong door after not hearing an announcement stating 'If you need the toilet, use _ door'

Presumably the guard counts them going into the toilet?

 

[Amos390]

Presumably the guard counts them going into the toilet?

Yeah, but it could be easy to confuse them with someone who is simply getting off at that stop as they didn't use the specified 'toilet queue door'.

What I seem to be getting from this is that trying to manage toilet pit stops is a pain and it is much easier to have a toilet on the train that works in the first place, therefore avoidinf all this hassle...

 

[py_megapixel]

What I seem to be getting from this is that trying to manage toilet pit stops is a pain and it is much easier to have a toilet on the train that works in the first place, therefore avoidinf all this hassle...

Don't think you'll find anyone disagreeing with you there!

 

[800001]

Yeah, but it could be easy to confuse them with someone who is simply getting off at that stop as they didn't use the specified 'toilet queue door'.

What I seem to be getting from this is that trying to manage toilet pit stops is a pain and it is much easier to have a toilet on the train that works in the first place, therefore avoidinf all this hassle...

Which I am pretty sure EMR want as well, and are actually engaged with Hitachi to flush out the root cause of the problem.

 

[WesternLancer]

Sounds like 013 got caught up in quite a bit of disruption yesterday then.

I wondered where the 222 came from to make that swap at Leicester but that makes sense, it was very overcrowded on board (think there was some kind of football game on) when it turned up at Loughborough but I'm grateful to EMR for working out a way to continue the service. I probably wouldn't have made it where I was trying to get to otherwise.

The situation wasn't great at St Pancras yesterday at c18.00 when I was looking to depart - large numbers of passengers and clearly not enough capacity on EMR Inter city to cope with it - no doubt exacerbated by closure at Kings Cross (wouldn't take many people from Kings Cross to completely overwhelm what are already overcrowded EMR services at busy times....)

Services to Sheffield and Nottingham were leaving full and standing.

I opted to take a Connect service to Kettering (plenty of space on an 8 car train) and switch into an EMR Intercity there in the hope that some people would have got off the Inter City (tho it wasn't much better) or at least I would spend less of my journey in overcrowded conditions. Not having an Advance ticket made this straightforward.

I know people here regularly state that the 810s have more capacity (and they will be an uplift on existing 5 car Meridian) - but it's very clear to me that the 810 order has no capacity for passenger growth and won't be able to cope with peaks in demand that currently exist.

Train travel should actually be a pleasant experience - but none of my trips on EMR intercity in recent months have really achieved that apart from when's I've sampled an 810 using Weekend First supplements.

Travel on EMR Inter City is both not very pleasant and not very cheap in my view....

 

[LowLevel]

Meanwhile, of course, the very efficient bus service from Bedford to Peterborough connecting with LNER train services were both quiet with plenty of seats.

For a journey to Doncaster as an example, getting the 1717 Corby train and changing at Bedford and Peterborough took about 3 and a half hours, arriving at about 2045 ish.

Using the 1732 train changing at Sheffield saves about 20 minutes, with a 2 hour horror story on a jam packed train you might not have even been able to board

I know it goes against the grain but they should be allowed to nobble the journey planners to promote the bus - OR - offer extremely cheap advances using the bus service that are heavily promoted.

I've said it enough times but the East and West Coast mainline blocks trash the Midland route routinely and have done forever.

They'd given up trying to squeeze everyone on to the Sheffield trains and sent some via Nottingham for connections there.

 

[Mike395]

Meanwhile, of course, the very efficient bus service from Bedford to Peterborough connecting with LNER train services were both quiet with plenty of seats.

For a journey to Doncaster as an example, getting the 1717 Corby train and changing at Bedford and Peterborough took about 3 and a half hours, arriving at about 2045 ish.

Using the 1732 train changing at Sheffield saves about 20 minutes, with a 2 hour horror story on a jam packed train you might not have even been able to boar
I know it goes against the grain but they should be allowed to nobble the journey planners to promote the bus - OR - offer extremely cheap advances using the bus service that are heavily promoted.

I've said it enough times but the East and West Coast mainline blocks trash the Midland route routinely and have done forever.

They'd given up trying to squeeze everyone on to the Sheffield trains and sent some via Nottingham for connections there.

I'm sure EMR Regional guards loved that!

Agree with the wider point too, nobbling journey planners probably isn't practical but pricing Advances such that the bus is attractive (perhaps half the usual tier pricing, with a quota such that it would not overwhelm the bus services but mean they're reasonably well used) to at least shift a subset of passengers should definitely be possible.

 

[WesternLancer]

Meanwhile, of course, the very efficient bus service from Bedford to Peterborough connecting with LNER train services were both quiet with plenty of seats.

For a journey to Doncaster as an example, getting the 1717 Corby train and changing at Bedford and Peterborough took about 3 and a half hours, arriving at about 2045 ish.

Using the 1732 train changing at Sheffield saves about 20 minutes, with a 2 hour horror story on a jam packed train you might not have even been able to board

I know it goes against the grain but they should be allowed to nobble the journey planners to promote the bus - OR - offer extremely cheap advances using the bus service that are heavily promoted.

I've said it enough times but the East and West Coast mainline blocks trash the Midland route routinely and have done forever.

They'd given up trying to squeeze everyone on to the Sheffield trains and sent some via Nottingham for connections there.

Good points.

 

[Kite159]

Just shows that even if you run a frequent replacement bus service most passengers if given the option will choice rail, even if it takes longer.

See also demand on Chiltern whenever the WCML is closed at the southern end. Also no doubt usage of Chiltern between Oxford & London will increase this week due to no GWR services with the block.

 

[Bald Rick]

I know people here regularly state that the 810s have more capacity

but it's very clear to me that the 810 order has no capacity for passenger growth

These two statements don’t fit well together.

and won't be able to cope with peaks in demand that currently exist.

As I have said a few times before, let’s just wait until the fleet is fully in service before making such judgements.

 

[WesternLancer]

These two statements don’t fit well together.




As I have said a few times before, let’s just wait until the fleet is fully in service before making such judgements.

What I mean is that in my view the additional capacity isn't significant - and to me that's already pretty clear. Of course I may be proved wrong in due course.

General experience suggests to me that improved quality trains actually boost ridership (as does the 'sparks effect' or so history tells us) - but there won't be the scope to cope with this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just shows that even if you run a frequent replacement bus service most passengers if given the option will choice rail, even if it takes longer.

See also demand on Chiltern whenever the WCML is closed at the southern end. Also no doubt usage of Chiltern between Oxford & London will increase this week due to no GWR services with the block.

Replied here as I think it's a decent general thread:

Rail replacement buses vs. longer train journeys - choices by passengers in engineering works

Just shows that even if you run a frequent replacement bus service most passengers if given the option will choice rail, even if it takes longer. See also demand on Chiltern whenever the WCML is closed at the southern end. Also no doubt usage of Chiltern between Oxford & London will increase...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[43096]

What I mean is that in my view the additional capacity isn't significant - and to me that's already pretty clear. Of course I may be proved wrong in due course.

General experience suggests to me that improved quality trains actually boost ridership (as does the 'sparks effect' or so history tells us) - but there won't be the scope to cope with this.

There’s a 15% increase in vehicle numbers (143 to 165) and we know the 810s are also a “per vehicle” capacity increase too.

 

[Charlie978]

What I mean is that in my view the additional capacity isn't significant - and to me that's already pretty clear. Of course I may be proved wrong in due course.

I think when the service is fully 810s it will be more reliable (less mid-diagram cancellations), and will also see regular 10 car diagrams/services. This will be a big help to the capacity problems.

Although I do agree with you that the increased capacity is not enough. (But that returns to the overdone discussion of St Pancras platform lengths/no. of platforms.)

In my experience of using the Sheffield services (222s), they are fairly busy even at off peak times. At peak times or as soon as there is an event or disruption on any mainline out of London they are full and standing.

 

[Nottingham59]

I see EMR have released their latest video on the Aurora Project: "Episode 3 | Training & Preparation"

 

[WesternLancer]

I see EMR have released their latest video on the Aurora Project: "Episode 3 | Training & Preparation"

Future episode on toilets?

 

[tfw756rider]

The quality of these new trains is second to none.

 

[tram21]

Also nice to see diagrams of the class 810s on RTT now!

 

[Nottingham59]

Future episode on toilets?

MAybe the "Training and Preparation" included Potty Training?

 

[Amos390]

I see EMR have released their latest video on the Aurora Project: "Episode 3 | Training & Preparation"

Fun fact, on one of the previous one of these, there was a shot of the 810 (810008) arriving into Notts P1, and I was there when they took the shot, and basically got told ‘Don’t get in the way’

 

[tfw756rider]

Fun fact, on one of the previous one of these, there was a shot of the 810 (810008) arriving into Notts P1, and I was there when they took the shot, and basically got told ‘Don’t get in the way’

Nicely, or rudely/aggressively?

 

[Amos390]

Nicely, or rudely/aggressively?

Nicely of course

 

[Railperf]

Good to see all three 810 diagrams completed yesterday - seemingly without failure. 810012 this morning delayed on 1B07 Nottingham to St Pancras due to a 'fault on the train that has now been fixed' and currently 15 late. Looks like it might have originally been assigned to driver training but drafted into pax service in the last minute.
With the 222 fleet still struggling, is there any indication of when the next couple of diagrams can be turned over to Class 810's. Can five diagrams realistically be filled by the five 810's or is reliability still a bit risky?

 

[AndrewJM70]

I think they said 5 diagrams by Spring - which I assume to be March 21st. I am under the impression deployment will come a little faster thereafter.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Good to see all three 810 diagrams completed yesterday - seemingly without failure. 810012 this morning delayed on 1B07 Nottingham to St Pancras due to a 'fault on the train that has now been fixed' and currently 15 late. Looks like it might have originally been assigned to driver training but drafted into pax service in the last minute.
With the 222 fleet still struggling, is there any indication of when the next couple of diagrams can be turned over to Class 810's. Can five diagrams realistically be filled by the five 810's or is reliability still a bit risky?

Does seem like the ask from EMR of Hitachi was to get 5x 810s available for service asap to backfill the Lumo units, given the hiatus on new deliveries.
Question is whether any more entries into service can be stepped up given the way 222 availability has (as you have posted elsewhere) dropped significantly in the last couple of weeks.

I think they said 5 diagrams by Spring - which I assume to be March 21st.

Call me cynical, but that isn't how the railway works (in common with Government).
The railway meaning of any time period is usually code for the last possible date to which the term can truthfully be applied.
EMR's use of of "Spring" should therefore be assumed to mean 20th June 2026 as this is the last day before the summer solstice that marks the end of astronomical spring,

Obviously organisations could choose to provide more precision, but in general they choose not to, because it makes slippage more visible, and most leaders tend to prefer not to draw attention to, or be held accountable for this type of thing.

I think it may have been Roger Ford that was the first person to draw attention to this in the rail industry.

 

[Skymonster]

Obviously organisations could choose to provide more precision, but in general they choose not to, because it makes slippage more visible, and most leaders tend to prefer not to draw attention to, or be held accountable for this type of thing.

In businesses like the railway, under-promising and then [hopefully / maybe] over-delivering is usually seen as preferable to failing to meet deadlines.

What bothers me about the whole thing is that its the poor s*ds who pay to use EMR Intercity day-in, day-out who are suffering right now. It doesn’t really matter whether its late 810 deliveries or 222 reliability - short forms and cancellations adversely impact users. And there seems to have been precious little in the way of mitigation having been put into place to cover either scenario, or worst still both (which is now being faced). The unspoken attitude seemingly coming out of EMR seems to be a shrug of the shoulders and expectation customers will just have to suck it up.

I know what some people are going to say: there’s nothing EMR could do about the seven-car 222s going off lease before enough 810s were delivered; EMR isn’t allowed to put more investment into reliability of the 222 fleet; EMR can’t make 810s more reliable or get them certified for 10-car operations any sooner. None of these excuses make what the passengers are experiencing any better. Maybe the compensation Hitachi is supposedly paying for late 810 deliveries should go back to the passengers who are impacted rather than into the government’s railway money pot? Its a shame fleet replacement arrangements don’t stipulate that capacity must be replaced on a like-for-like or better basis and that leases must be arranged on that basis. Its not going to happen though, is it.

I suspect EMR will just muddle along as it is doing now, causing more customer resentment and reputation damage in the process. I think that with so few 810s delivered and fit for service, and with the pipeline for more not appearing to be particularly positive especially in the short term, there’s quite a bit more pain to come for users of the MML.

 

[WesternLancer]

In businesses like the railway, under-promising and then [hopefully / maybe] over-delivering is usually seen as preferable to failing to meet deadlines.

What bothers me about the whole thing is that its the poor s*ds who pay to use EMR Intercity day-in, day-out who are suffering right now. It doesn’t really matter whether its late 810 deliveries or 222 reliability - short forms and cancellations adversely impact users. And there seems to have been precious little in the way of mitigation having been put into place to cover either scenario, or worst still both (which is now being faced). The unspoken attitude seemingly coming out of EMR seems to be a shrug of the shoulders and expectation customers will just have to suck it up.

I know what some people are going to say: there’s nothing EMR could do about the seven-car 222s going off lease before enough 810s were delivered; EMR isn’t allowed to put more investment into reliability of the 222 fleet; EMR can’t make 810s more reliable or get them certified for 10-car operations any sooner. None of these excuses make what the passengers are experiencing any better. Maybe the compensation Hitachi is supposedly paying for late 810 deliveries should go back to the passengers who are impacted rather than into the government’s railway money pot? Its a shame fleet replacement arrangements don’t stipulate that capacity must be replaced on a like-for-like or better basis and that leases must be arranged on that basis. Its not going to happen though, is it.

I suspect EMR will just muddle along as it is doing now, causing more customer resentment and reputation damage in the process. I think that with so few 810s delivered and fit for service, and with the pipeline for more not appearing to be particularly positive especially in the short term, there’s quite a bit more pain to come for users of the MML.

excellent post and well put IMHO - the passenger was 'promised' new trains would be delivered 2 years ago. DfT should also be held accountable for this - and that means minsters in parliament being called to account by MPs and Mayors in the towns and cities the route serves to get a better deal for the passengers.

 

[Skymonster]

excellent post and well put IMHO - the passenger was 'promised' new trains would be delivered 2 years ago. DfT should also be held accountable for this - and that means minsters in parliament being called to account by MPs and Mayors in the towns and cities the route serves to get a better deal for the passengers.

Yes indeed. What makes me annoyed (especially when I have to stand on a short-formed service) - more annoyed than I am that the 810s are so far chronically unreliable - is that there are some seven-car 222s kicking around that would alleviate the current pain, but they’re either being used by another TOC for crew training or are being refurbished for that other TOC. Effectively, DfT has prioritised Lumo and a new open access operation, over the customers that use an established GBR operator. I know, someone is going to say: the contract for the 222s says they have to be off-leased by EMR on certain dates, and if they aren’t the leasing company will see the DfT in court. I suggest the lease contracts are poorly constructed, favouring the leasing companies over the needs of established operations. Its too late for the EMR / 222 / 810 debacle (and yes, I do believe it is now becoming a debacle), but lessons needed to learned and things improved in future - a more customer-centric approach is needed.