Could Northern Start Introducing 8 Car Workings On Busy Peak Time Services?

[stan claire]

How will passengers go to Barrow from Manchester then?

I'd guess they change at Preston

 

[Class 323 Fan]

I'd guess they change at Preston

that’s just another inconvenience with Northern, and if that service is cancelled, they’re stuck at Preston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How will passengers go to Barrow from Manchester then?

Change at Preston or Lancaster.

Actual survey and ticket data would be interesting, but my observation is largely that the Barrow is more of a Barrow/Ulverston etc to Lancaster and Preston-Manchester service with very split loadings and it's at its quietest between Preston and Lancaster. The Windermere carries more through passengers but it's only three or four times a day, and it might well carry as many day-trippers from York way as from Manchester.

I'd probably rather not do this, but with a surplus of EMUs and shortage of DMUs it doesn't seem a bad plan to allow maximum train lengths on the DMU routes as far as possible, not dissimilar to the idea of sending the Athertons to Southport and running the Boltons as EMU for now (though I suppose 769s aren't very useful anywhere else). The Hope Valley for instance worked well with 5-6 car trains but is largely back down to 3 because of the units going off to strengthen north of Preston, this might allow that to be put back. And it's better than just lopping Barrow/Windermere back to shuttles from Lancaster because the through service to Preston for connections is maintained, plus the TPE remains for Lancaster-Manchester.

 

[stan claire]

that’s just another inconvenience with Northern, and if that service is cancelled, they’re stuck at Preston.

To be fair anyone could get stuck with a cancelled train, even more of a nightmare for it here as I've been stuck for HOURS waiting for a train before, sometimes these things do happen but Northern do seem to be improving a lot recently

 

[Starmill]

That's a very interesting idea. I'd normally be against it, but I do find there's a fairly big turnover of passengers at Lancaster and Preston on services from Barrow/Windermere, with most not continuing on to Manchester, so this might actually be more workable than one might initially think. And this would maintain through services to Preston at least. Plus for through passengers from Lancaster and Oxenholme there would still be the hourly TPE.

In 2017-18 when Blackpool North was closed long term there actually was a through service all the way from York to Barrow-in-Furness.

 

[Killingworth]

The Hope Valley for instance worked well with 5-6 car trains but is largely back down to 3 because of the units going off to strengthen north of Preston, this might allow that to be put back. And it's better than just lopping Barrow/Windermere back to shuttles from Lancaster because the through service to Preston for connections is maintained, plus the TPE remains for Lancaster-Manchester.

5 and 6 cars on Hope Valley were primarily to cover for missing fast services. Some 4 car are provided on Sundays to compensate for missing 1 in 3 due to the Sunday working issue.

5 or 6 should be enough on most DMU routes. An 8, 10 or 12 car would probably require platform extentions at most Northern stations.

6 are fine at Piccadilly and Sheffield - when not required for other trains, but they sometimes are. See picture across pages 6 and 7 in the latest Modern Railways. The track and signalling on Platform 1a at Sheffield only allows a 2 car train if going back to Manchester if 1b is used for a 6 car TPE to Cleethorpes.

Northern are wanting to increase passenger numbers by 30% by 2030. I'd consider that a lack of ambition. According to Alex Hornby the Hope Valley route increased by almost 25% in the last year alone. If we really believe rail has a long term future we need to be planning for a doubling before new rolling stock currently being designed is 10 years old!

 

[Starmill]

The Hope Valley for instance worked well with 5-6 car trains but is largely back down to 3 because of the units going off to strengthen north of Preston, this might allow that to be put back.

They have never been routinely run with anything more than 2+2 sprinter or 3 195. During the temporary period when they were it was almost all weekends too. However as noted there very plainly is adequate demand to fill a lot more than that, although a lot of it is because of the express services being so underprovided on, plenty of which are just 3 185 / 170 or 2+2 158 / 170.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

Northern are wanting to increase passenger numbers by 30% by 2030. I'd consider that a lack of ambition. According to Alex Hornby the Hope Valley route increased by almost 25% in the last year alone. If we really believe rail has a long term future we need to be planning for a doubling before new rolling stock currently being designed is 10 years old!

If passenger numbers are increasing, why not increase frequency, introduce a second tph.

And does anyone know why 150s are on the Hope Valley? It’s meant to be a full 195 allocation.

 

[Killingworth]

If passenger numbers are increasing, why not increase frequency, introduce a second tph.

And does anyone know why 150s are on the Hope Valley? It’s meant to be a full 195 allocation.

1. No paths free in and out of Manchester and few in Sheffield either.
2. It mostly is 3 car 195s but there's a shortage of serviceable diesel rolling stock generally and 3 car 195s in particular (one still missing after the 2024 Grange over Sands derailment).

 

[Kite159]

The issue with the Hope Valley line is Northern filling the trains with Manchester - Sheffield passengers with cheap advance tickets (also doesn't help that TPE binned the day return fare). If those services didn't offer a price advantage over the faster EMR/TPE services then they won't be as busy.

(Although I do wonder what percentage of misuse there is with someone buying a Northern only ticket and boarding the front unit of a pair of 185s or even a pair of 170s knowing unless there is revenue or a 2nd guard they won't get caught out)

 

[Killingworth]

The issue with the Hope Valley line is Northern filling the trains with Manchester - Sheffield passengers with cheap advance tickets (also doesn't help that TPE binned the day return fare). If those services didn't offer a price advantage over the faster EMR/TPE services then they won't be as busy.

(Although I do wonder what percentage of misuse there is with someone buying a Northern only ticket and boarding the front unit of a pair of 185s or even a pair of 170s knowing unless there is revenue or a 2nd guard they won't get caught out)

A good summary.

TPE provide an hourly service between the 2 cities, possibly 6 car 185s but often 3. They offer 1st Class and a catering trolley. On a 3 car the trolley may not be able to get on the train at all let along work along it and in any case you may be almost at your destination if it does. On a 6 car half the train gets no catering.

EMR provide anything from 2 to 6 car 158 or 170s hourly, all what we used to call 2nd Class. There may be catering on these but if 170 only in half the train.

Northern's hourly stoppers are usually 3 car 195s but can be 2, 4, occasionally 5 or very rarely 6. 15x units turn up as 2 or 4 car when 195s aren't available. The effective truth is that Northern's 195 service (taking nearly 80 minutes) is the cheapest '3rd Class' option for through travellers - although 195s are as good for most as 158, 170 or 185s that do the trip in under 55 minutes.

In the same hour a Northern single ticket can be 1/3 that of TPE or EMR. As examples, next Sunday morning prices from Sheffield to Piccadilly range from TPE's 8.09 at £17.30 (limited availability, 6 left in 1st) to Northern's 11.15 at £7.60. All trains currently show as limited availability and will probably show no availability by Saturday. The canny will compare prices from Dore where it can be cheaper, or dearer on those same trains - but by the time you check that may have changed!!

On most days and within some hours those who check will find time flexibility can get them a much cheaper fare.

On the stations along this route only Piccadilly has any regular ticket checking. Some regular users have undoubtedly sussed out how to avoid payment. I've observed them in action. Boarding the front half of a Northern double unit is a favourite. In my recent experience I haven't had my ticket checked on both Northern and EMR services, although the EMRs had every seat taken so maybe others did. My last TPE trip was to Liverpool and my ticket wasn't checked until it was quiet after Piccadilly - very thoroughly too, including my Railcard.

I know some regularly take Promise to Pay tickets from the TVM, their get out of gaol free card! I once saw a large group of walkers being handed such by their walk leader, most of the participants having paid for food and drinks along the way by card!

One reason for the increased passenger numbers being recorded may be that more are buying tickets online. When tickets are checked on the train the inspection will take far less time than it would have done 5-10 years ago. Seeing more tickets being checked is encouraging more to pay.