Could Northern Start Introducing 8 Car Workings On Busy Peak Time Services?

[Snow1964]

So would it be possible to lengthen Northern platforms to allow 8 - 12 car running on the busiest routes?

Almost certainly technically possible, it is really a case of is there money for work to do the platform extensions, but more importantly the much bigger cost of the alterations at each terminus.

In many cases the intermediate stations are relatively easy (especially as historically there was often space for goods sidings and loops, which are no longer there). Expensive station work are footbridges, lifts, canopies, accessible ramps, not adding a few metres of platform with modular parts.

However Northern has lots of platforms which are too low, and there tends to be a trend if doing platform work, then whole length is sorted so that adds to cost. (although shouldn't really lump in a cost of a historical difference fix in with optional cost of extensions). The UK railway has a habit of new work being expensively engineered even when tacked onto something of indifferent quality, rather than going for low cost upgrades

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Is running 4tph Liverpool - Wigan possible with the 2 track section between Lime Street/Edge Hill - Roby, along with the TPE & trains towards Manchester?

It'd definitely be possible to fit a 4th in the hours where the Liverpool - Glasgow doesn't run, just use it's path.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It'd definitely be possible to fit a 4th in the hours where the Liverpool - Glasgow doesn't run, just use it's path.

A fast Liverpool to Preston EMU in the Glasgow's path every hour (with some being TPEs that continue to Glasgow as at present) would definitely be of value. That and reinstating the Warrington Bank Quay stopper would be my two priorities for EMU services in the Liverpool area.

 

[The exile]

However I'd probably look to address frequency first, as most Northern routes operate very low frequencies. For instance on the Manchester suburbans I'd be looking to go to 4tph from 1-2tph before going for extremely long trains. Though I think provision for 8 x 24m on Manchester-Blackpool (192m) probably is worthwhile - indeed if I was going for a standard non-South-East, non-InterCity platform length 200m would probably be it, which would also open up the possibility of the post modernisation TPE fleet being 200m long per the European standard which would be about right for those services, and the same for XC.

Wouldn’t the problem there be the various pinch points that exist (Castlefield being the best known but by far from the only one). Some of them may be reasonably cost effective to remove- but the fact that they haven’t been suggests otherwise.

 

[stan claire]

It’d make sense to reinstate the Victoria to Preston service and extend it to Stalybridge considering Stalybridge is wired now and I believe the Vic-Preston service was removed because of issues with turning capacity at Vic, the only issue I can think of is the short platforms at Ashton (maybe run 4 and 6x331s or a 6x323 with the back set locked out between Vic and Stalybridge). 8 cars on Liverpool-Blackpool wouldn’t be possible as Euxton can only fit 4 carriages, but another Liverpool-Preston service should definitely be looked into considering an hourly service between Preston and Liverpool isn’t that great in comparison to the 4tph between Preston and Manchester

 

[cle]

Agreed. It could skip Ashton if necessarily.

And yes to a second fast between Liverpool and Wigan/Preston. IMO this could get to Lancaster at minimum.

Arguably if bi/diesel, it could take over the hourly Barrow. Windermere going hourly to Manchester/A. But maintain the Glasgow hours too.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

Why can't that route skip Euxton, and another service stops there? Or stop somewhere else that can accommodate at least 6 coaches?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why can't that route skip Euxton, and another service stops there? Or stop somewhere else that can accommodate at least 6 coaches?

More to the point why can't it use ASDO? "But a whole unit will be off" isn't a valid objection, that is already the case when a 6 car works the Windermere at one or both (I forget) of Burneside and Staveley. Anyone who got themselves stuck by e.g. hiding in headphones rather than listening to announcements would just have to go to the next station and back, though in reality that'd only happen once to any given person as it's a "local station for local people" mostly.

 

[stan claire]

"But a whole unit will be off" isn't a valid objection, that is already the case when a 6 car works the Windermere at one or both (I forget) of Burneside and Staveley.

pretty sure it’s all 3 of Kendal, Burneside and Staveley but all 3 can fit 4 carriages so part of the rear unit is still on iirc, not sure how they would work it for guards whether they’re allowed to do doors from the front set or not

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2026 ==

Why can't that route skip Euxton, and another service stops there? Or stop somewhere else that can accommodate at least 6 coaches?

What other service? As someone local to the area the direct Liverpool service is pretty handy (as well as statistics for usage quoting Lime Street as the main deatunation from Euxton) but I do feel like they’d be able to get away with a non-stop Preston-Wigan or Preston-Leyland-Wigan service as much as Euxton would probably benefit from the extra frequency, would personally say why not as Ince receives even less usage and still gets 3tph

 

[pokemonsuper9]

would personally say why not as Ince receives even less usage and still gets 3tph

although that's for operational reasons so the 769s can switch to/from Diesel

 

[Bletchleyite]

pretty sure it’s all 3 of Kendal, Burneside and Staveley but all 3 can fit 4 carriages so part of the rear unit is still on iirc, not sure how they would work it for guards whether they’re allowed to do doors from the front set or not

At at least one of them, a whole unit is off. There are posters at all stations on the line to that effect and also elsewhere.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why can't that route skip Euxton, and another service stops there? Or stop somewhere else that can accommodate at least 6 coaches?

There's also the upcoming stops at Golborne to fit in the timetable somewhere.
Currently planned to run to Manchester I think.

 

[cle]

I think Golborne will have the Victoria-Eccles-Wigan NW peak service made all day. Unsure what else. I suppose the oft-discussed local WCML service between eg Crewe and Preston, would be a contender?

Renders showed a full 4 platform build on the WCML, which is probably hugely overkill. Unsure of housing developments which acccompany.

But you’d hope that’d be for more than 1tph. It’s Brent Cross West / Cambridge South scope practically

 

[Kite159]

although that's for operational reasons so the 769s can switch to/from Diesel

I think so as previously to the wires getting installed between Wigan & Bolton, Ince only had roughly a hourly service (Headbolt Lane).

 

[Starmill]

8 carriages won't fit at the Airport or the platforms used at Lime Street for those services, so no. 8 carriages would also not be allowed on Chat Moss as a whole unit would be un-platformed at most stations, which is a no-no

As I see this has received some further responses - just to clarify, this is against TPE's standard, but it is perfectly permitted, and is in fact current practice at Northern.

I personally wish it weren't permitted at all, but sadly we are where we are.

I think Golborne will have the Victoria-Eccles-Wigan NW peak service made all day. Unsure what else.

There won't be anything else and at present the business plan doesn't call for more than six services a day, so that's all there's train crew resource for. Too few crew sign via Golborne and there would need to be headcount increase regardless even if everyone in the five (or at least three of) crew depots in the area kept up the route. It's going to be interesting watching the fight over who covers the additional subsidy money on this one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2026 ==

At at least one of them, a whole unit is off. There are posters at all stations on the line to that effect and also elsewhere.

There are loads of stations where this happens yes. Even Bescar Lane for example. In general, it's not announced in advance either - you're expected to just know where to get on, in the case of Bescar Lane it used to say at Meols Cop etc that you must be in the front two coaches only, when they're actually the ones that are completely off the platform. I assume they get away with it there because so few people use it that nobody has complained of missing their stop.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2026 ==

Anyone who got themselves stuck by e.g. hiding in headphones rather than listening to announcements would just have to go to the next station and back

On a point of order the announcement is not made automatically in advance. They're sometimes made at Northern managed stations but they're usually wrong. They don't get made at all at say Manchester Airport because it's not the Northern information system. This system relies on people simply knowing as you say, or noticing the the posters on the platform (how they'd do that before they get there I don't know) or the conductor making the announcement which many of them do not actually do.

 

[Charlie978]

At at least one of them, a whole unit is off. There are posters at all stations on the line to that effect and also elsewhere.

Certainly those posters are up at Arnside (on the Barrow line), saw them this summer and was surprised at this as 6 car 195s are common up there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How is this handled at Bescar Lane given that it's 15x, is it local door only? I was of the impression that the 195/331 are the only Northern units with ASDO? Or do they just do what they do on the Headbolts west of Wigan Wallgate and just lock a whole unit out?

 

[Starmill]

How is this handled at Bescar Lane given that it's 15x, is it local door only? I was of the impression that the 195/331 are the only Northern units with ASDO? Or do they just do what they do on the Headbolts west of Wigan Wallgate and just lock a whole unit out?

Technically it's not correct for the rear unit to be locked out going to Headbolt Lane, only from Headbolt Lane until Pemberton.

The door on a Northern 150 can't be localised, it has to be opened by the butterfly wheel from the outside. It takes a significant amount of time to do that on three vehicles. The on train information systems couldn't cope with it either, they'd just get stuck and keep reading out "the next station will be Orrel" all the way as they worked off the door release as one of their inputs. This may now have been fixed (but probably hasn't).

 

[BG2024]

8-cars aren't needed (yet) on the Chat Moss. There's always plently of space at the back of the current 6-car services, even at rush hour.

 

[Bletchleyite]

8-cars aren't needed (yet) on the Chat Moss. There's always plently of space at the back of the current 6-car services, even at rush hour.

Some Blackpools could do with it, but it might be better to add a service if it's possible to crew and path it (e.g. reinstate the Victoria-Blackpool hourly service) than further lengthen.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

Some Blackpools could do with it, but it might be better to add a service if it's possible to crew and path it (e.g. reinstate the Victoria-Blackpool hourly service) than further lengthen.

A 6 car 331 can be fully standing by Preston, which is why i originally put this post up

 

[stan claire]

Some Blackpools could do with it, but it might be better to add a service if it's possible to crew and path it (e.g. reinstate the Victoria-Blackpool hourly service) than further lengthen.

Would be convenient to reinstate the Vic-Preston service anyway as it's a bit of a trek from Piccadilly to the retail district in Manchester centre compared to Victoria being literally round the corner

 

[amahy]

Possible solution to the Manchester to Preston issue. Could the Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere be replaced by a 3rd, fast train per hour between Manchester Airport and Blackpool, operated by a 6/8 car EMU? And replace York to Blackpool North trains are withdrawn and replaced by York to Barrow/Windermere? This optimises Northern's fleet by reducing diesels running under wires.

 

[Djgr]

8-cars aren't needed (yet) on the Chat Moss. There's always plently of space at the back of the current 6-car services, even at rush hour.

Travelling Deansgate to Lime Street around 1300 last Saturday in a 6-car there was no space.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Possible solution to the Manchester to Preston issue. Could the Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere be replaced by a 3rd, fast train per hour between Manchester Airport and Blackpool, operated by a 6/8 car EMU? And replace York to Blackpool North trains are withdrawn and replaced by York to Barrow/Windermere? This optimises Northern's fleet by reducing diesels running under wires.

That's a very interesting idea. I'd normally be against it, but I do find there's a fairly big turnover of passengers at Lancaster and Preston on services from Barrow/Windermere, with most not continuing on to Manchester, so this might actually be more workable than one might initially think. And this would maintain through services to Preston at least. Plus for through passengers from Lancaster and Oxenholme there would still be the hourly TPE.

 

[amahy]

That's a very interesting idea. I'd normally be against it, but I do find there's a fairly big turnover of passengers at Lancaster and Preston on services from Barrow/Windermere, with most not continuing on to Manchester, so this might actually be more workable than one might initially think. And this would maintain through services to Preston at least. Plus for through passengers from Lancaster and Oxenholme there would still be the hourly TPE.

Indeed. The only big downsides would be the lack of Yorkshire to Blackpool services and the lack of direct Lake District trains from Manchester, although this could be offset with the use of longer trains. The 350/2s could be used in 8 car formations on fast Manchester to Blackpools, as Northern’s main problem with them seems to be slow doors, but this wouldn’t matter as much on a fast service. What’s more, there may also be the opportunity to run a 4tph “turn up and go” between Manchester and Blackpool, with 2 expresses (8 car 350/2s) and 2 slows (6 car 323s and 331s). The TPE Scotland services could revert to travelling via Parkside Junction and Wigan, to reduce crowding on that service between Manchester and Preston.

 

[stan claire]

Possible solution to the Manchester to Preston issue. Could the Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere be replaced by a 3rd, fast train per hour between Manchester Airport and Blackpool, operated by a 6/8 car EMU? And replace York to Blackpool North trains are withdrawn and replaced by York to Barrow/Windermere? This optimises Northern's fleet by reducing diesels running under wires.

Would be a good idea but I'm just unsure about how they'd do 6 car workings

Indeed. The only big downsides would be the lack of Yorkshire to Blackpool services and the lack of direct Lake District trains from Manchester, although this could be offset with the use of longer trains. The 350/2s could be used in 8 car formations on fast Manchester to Blackpools, as Northern’s main problem with them seems to be slow doors, but this wouldn’t matter as much on a fast service. What’s more, there may also be the opportunity to run a 4tph “turn up and go” between Manchester and Blackpool, with 2 expresses (8 car 350/2s) and 2 slows (6 car 323s and 331s). The TPE Scotland services could revert to travelling via Parkside Junction and Wigan, to reduce crowding on that service between Manchester and Preston.

They could possibly run the 8 cars to Lancaster as well as I'm pretty sure the Barrow/Windermere services are busy between Manchester and Lancaster
What could the stopping patterns for the expresses be like? The current service picks up quite a bit at BSV and HWI (from the trains I commute on anyway) but I can't imagine Northern being generous enough to give such a frequency to these two stations since the 3tph was cut back to 2 in 2021 (both stations definitely need more frequent services though as weekend, weekday peak and even some daytime services can be rather cozy!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would be a good idea but I'm just unsure about how they'd do 6 car workings

On Barrow/Windermere? They're mostly needed south of Preston rather than north of it, aside from the absolute height of summer. 3-4 would be plenty the rest of the time.

Only constraint is that it has to be Class 195 so it can run at 100mph on the WCML.

 

[stan claire]

Almost certainly technically possible, it is really a case of is there money for work to do the platform extensions, but more importantly the much bigger cost of the alterations at each terminus.

In many cases the intermediate stations are relatively easy (especially as historically there was often space for goods sidings and loops, which are no longer there). Expensive station work are footbridges, lifts, canopies, accessible ramps, not adding a few metres of platform with modular parts.

However Northern has lots of platforms which are too low, and there tends to be a trend if doing platform work, then whole length is sorted so that adds to cost. (although shouldn't really lump in a cost of a historical difference fix in with optional cost of extensions). The UK railway has a habit of new work being expensively engineered even when tacked onto something of indifferent quality, rather than going for low cost upgrades

I know Buckshaw was built with the option to extend the platforms for 8 car working (you can see at the eastern end the platforms are different to the western end where they have the slope and emergency exits) but not sure about the rest of the Manchester-Blackpool route

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2026 ==

On Barrow/Windermere? They're mostly needed south of Preston rather than north of it, aside from the absolute height of summer. 3-4 would be plenty the rest of the time.

Only constraint is that it has to be Class 195 so it can run at 100mph on the WCML.

I don't think they use anything other than 195s on either route do they? I think I've only seen a 156 once or twice on Barrow-Airport in the past few years

 

[Class 323 Fan]

How will passengers go to Barrow from Manchester then?