Train vs Plane

[Port Road]

Moderator note - split from:

Intelligence-led stop with all your information and CCTV?

Stopped on an intelligence-led stop where they had all your information and CCTV? Cease posting online immediately and instruct a solicitor. This is vastly more serious than your average case. What in the dystopian nightmare am I hearing in the UK. This train fine system is really convoluted...

www.railforums.co.uk

Eurostar/TGV was £200+ one-way (which was led by the TGV price from Paris). I ended up flying.

Don't forget, though, that air travel is also heavily subsidised - they don't pay VAT on their fuel. If they did that TGV fare could maybe be a bargain.....

 

[AlterEgo]

Don't forget, though, that air travel is also heavily subsidised - they don't pay VAT on their fuel. If they did that TGV fare could maybe be a bargain.....

How much VAT do you think airlines would need to pay on their fuel to make a budget airfare to Bordeaux over £200?

 

[Trainman40083]

How much VAT do you think airlines would need to pay on their fuel to make a budget airfare to Bordeaux over £200?

I guess you start with how many gallons of fuel it takes per mile to make it fly. But even then, a plane with 100 passengers, it ain't going to make much difference.

 

[BazingaTribe]

How much VAT do you think airlines would need to pay on their fuel to make a budget airfare to Bordeaux over £200?

Well, just a quick search on Opodo for days in February, the cost is £246 return. So the train is value for money unless you need the speed of flight.

I also took trains in Germany and Belgium and I paid £22 from Aachen to Liege and back. It might have been because it was cross border, but it was two £11 singles, and there were several tiers of prices depending on which train you wanted to take. The fare I paid was the cheapest available on a stopping service; the fast services were much more expensive and also didn't have a return price. The Belgian railway app was tricky to navigate as well, although I do only have a colloquial knowledge of French and the station staff at Liege had only a basic knowledge of English, not enough for me to ask if I could upgrade my ticket because of my target train not going all the way back to Aachen.

Some things are just universal. The only difference to me from what can happen at home was the language barrier, and even locals were having difficulty when a declassified first class carriage was suddenly re-classified and an angry Belgian conductor threw us out despite having checked our tickets prior to this and honouring the declassification notice that had been on the door in Aachen.

So don't think the continental railways are fast, efficient and cheap with no significant issues with fare evasion or stroppy conductors changing their mind about the classification of a carriage. I have no reason to test foreign ticketing laws but they do check and they do have some Carry On style policies.

 

[35B]

How much VAT do you think airlines would need to pay on their fuel to make a budget airfare to Bordeaux over £200?

And then how much extra VAT are they going to be able to reclaim on other costs?

 

[Hadders]

Well, just a quick search on Opodo for days in February, the cost is £246 return. So the train is value for money unless you need the speed of flight.

London to Bordeaux for a long weekend, out on Friday 13th March return Monday 16th.

Eurostar prices over £200 for the outward, coming back is £144.

British Airways from Gatwick £166 return (other ‘cheaper’ airlines are available) Yes, you’ve got baggage and seats to consider but at those sort of prices why is anyone going Eurostar/TGV.

 

[jthjth]

Don't forget, though, that air travel is also heavily subsidised - they don't pay VAT on their fuel. If they did that TGV fare could maybe be a bargain.....

But they do pay Air Passenger Duty (APD) . Taxing airline fuel would just encourage planes to tanker in extra fuel from other jurisdiction. APD can’t be avoided.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well, just a quick search on Opodo for days in February, the cost is £246 return. So the train is value for money unless you need the speed of flight.

Oh bless you for thinking £200 would be a return train fare to Bordeaux from London.

 

[janb]

British Airways from Gatwick £166 return (other ‘cheaper’ airlines are available) Yes, you’ve got baggage and seats to consider but at those sort of prices why is anyone going Eurostar/TGV.

Well ethical objection to flying, and survivability of any accident. But for most people I concede those aren't considerations.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Well ethical objection to flying, and survivability of any accident. But for most people I concede those aren't considerations.

Also city centre to city centre. Which may or may not be what is needed depending on ultimate local origin and destinations.

 

[AlterEgo]

But they do pay Air Passenger Duty (APD) . Taxing airline fuel would just encourage planes to tanker in extra fuel from other jurisdiction. APD can’t be avoided.

Not *easily*, no. But it can be.

 

[BazingaTribe]

Oh bless you for thinking £200 would be a return train fare to Bordeaux from London.

Haha, yeah, I am still thinking of the UK where day returns at leasr are not much more than single tickets.

It makes a significant difference if it's only a single fare on the TGV.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2026 ==

London to Bordeaux for a long weekend, out on Friday 13th March return Monday 16th.

Eurostar prices over £200 for the outward, coming back is £144.

British Airways from Gatwick £166 return (other ‘cheaper’ airlines are available) Yes, you’ve got baggage and seats to consider but at those sort of prices why is anyone going Eurostar/TGV.

Good point. I was looking at Paris to Bordeaux (although I bought a through ticket on the Eurostar to Brussels then transferred to a DB ICE service to Aachen), but yeah, not cheap at all.

 

[Krokodil]

How much VAT do you think airlines would need to pay on their fuel to make a budget airfare to Bordeaux over £200?

VAT is percentage based so it isn't really a good example. It would just add 20% to whatever the current fare is.

Fuel duty on the other hand could easily have that effect. Bunkering is an issue (I would expect Shannon to become very popular for Transatlantic flights again) but only for as long as it takes the EU to realise that they too can make some revenue and reduce emissions in one go.

 

[35B]

VAT is percentage based so it isn't really a good example. It would just add 20% to whatever the current fare is.

Fuel duty on the other hand could easily have that effect. Bunkering is an issue (I would expect Shannon to become very popular for Transatlantic flights again) but only for as long as it takes the EU to realise that they too can make some revenue and reduce emissions in one go.

Agreed on fuel duty, but VAT is less clear cut - charging VAT on aviation would also allow airlines to recoup input VAT, so the impact on prices may not be totally linear

 

[coach fan]

Flying is fun. Train is well….a vehicle on rails.

 

[edwin_m]

Flying is fun.

Some, on Ryanair for example, may beg to differ.

And some of us have done it enough that it's just a chore.

 

[andy33gmail]

I’d sooner Standard Premier on Eurostar* than Premium Economy or Business Class on BA.

Much more room, much better ride quality, security is slightly less awful. And an appropriately sized table to play Ticket to Ride.

*or to be honest even cattle class

Edit: I appreciate there’s basically no journey for which Eurostar and BA are both options. But my point was able which I’d rather be on

 

[Krokodil]

Flying is fun. Train is well….a vehicle on rails.

I do wonder why you are on a site called "railforums" when all you ever seem to do is post about how much you hate trains.

I flew last month. Didn't find it particularly fun once I'd exhausted the entertainment system. Couldn't even see much, was cloudy below. Returned on an overnight flight where there was only a few hours between dinner and breakfast and I couldn't sleep anyway.

Now I will shortly be taking a few trains across the continent before a flight to another one. I'm looking forward to the trains, going to sleep in one city and waking up well-rested in another the next morning. I am not looking forward to the red-eye flight to my final destination (no other way to get there).

 

[contrex]

Flying is fun. Train is well….a vehicle on rails.

Wash your mouth out! NOW!!!

 

[alex397]

Flying is fun. Train is well….a vehicle on rails.

We are all different of course, but I strongly dislike most parts of flying. The only joy is the taking off and landing part, and perhaps looking out trying to identify cities and geographic landmarks, if lucky enough to have a window seat and no cloud.
The excessive amount of waiting around, inability to get up and have a walk, and slight feeling of claustrophia, is hugely off putting. So much so that I’m putting off planning a Balkans trip , knowing that I’ll have to probably fly.

 

[Statto]

Train vs Plane, kind of reminds me of the Clarkson/Hammond/May era Top Gear epic races.

 

[contrex]

I flew last month. Didn't find it particularly fun once I'd exhausted the entertainment system.

Takeoffs. and, to a lesser extent, landings are quite fun, I find. I had never flown until the age of 42 in 1994, and my then new girlfriend persuaded me to fly with her to Nice. I was rather nervous, and this feeling lasted right up until the pilot of the B757 released the brakes to take off from Heathrow. It reminded me of a 90 plus mph pillion ride on a Triumph Bonneville when I was 18. From that moment I was converted. We did it by train the next year, 18 hours from Bristol TM to Nice Ville. A mix is nice these days - e.g. Bristol - Toulouse by air, then train to Perpignan.

 

[styles]

Flying is fun. Train is well….a vehicle on rails.

I disagree.

I find airports to be pretty soulless on the whole.

Budget airlines want you at the gate 45 minutes or so before departure so they can minimise time on tarmac.

Then you have the whole rigmarole of waiting for departure, and at the other end waiting for disembarkation. Then you often have to get a connection from the airport to the city centre unlike railway stations.

The actual flight experience on budget airlines is basic, with no Internet, no plug sockets, limited legroom, tiny wee tables, food priced even above what train operators charge, you can't get up and stretch your legs, etc.

I take train over flying whenever feasible. In fact I'll even pay a slight premium to take the train.

My best flights are medium-long haul in business or first where I get a bed to sleep in and the actual flight mostly passes me by.

 

[Tester]

Flying is fun. Train is well….a vehicle on rails.

'The glamour of jet travel'

.....didn't age well!

 

[Sorcerer]

Flying is fun. Train is well….a vehicle on rails.

Rail travel is fun. Planes are well... long aluminium tubes that glide above the clouds.

In all seriousness though I find flying to be a thoroughly unpleasant experience with it's laborious pre-flight rituals at the airport along with the barely sufficient comfort of economy class to endure a long flight to a destination where you will be greeted almost equally laborious post-flight rituals along with the added tiredness from a long day of travel and the impending jetlag.

It's largely personal preference but I would much rather pay the premium of getting trains to the continent over a short-haul flight unless it was too inconvenient to do so. Even with my aspirations to have a lifestyle where I can travel at leisure I have still only envisioned myself as affluent enough to afford business or first class flights because at least then I can actually sleep in comfort. That is how much I dislike flying.

 

[sh24]

Both can be pleasant, both can be tedious and uncomfortable. However there aren't that many routes where the 2 modes really compete. I'm not taking the train to Johannesburg, nor will I be flying Club World to Nottingham. Eurostar is the best option for Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam and nearby cities, but beyond that it's a chunk of time and often expensive to take the train. Having the money time and will power to schlep to Madrid, Rome, Vienna to even Istanbul by train is a niche point of view. In the UK, train to Edinburgh and Glasgow makes sense, but flying to Aberdeen is much preferable.

 

[Midland340]

Both are fun!……and both can be tedious, flying, always bags a window seat, almost 1.5 million air miles to date, some of my high highlights are inter island flying in the Orkneys, landing on the beach at Barra, flying to the Chatham‘s from NZ on a Convair 550 combi aircraft and on a Budgie a Hawker Siddely 748 from Whitehorse Yukon to Inuvik in the North West Territories and by rail cruising by Mt Fuji on a Shinkansen in Japan riding thru the Rockies in Canada, the Outback express from Longreach to Brisbane in Queensland and perhaps the best journey was on the NBR, not the North British but the North Borneo railway from Kota Kinabalu where we rode on flatbed cars, stopped at wayside halts in the jungle to let school kids off to walk to there Kampongs (villages).
Airport procedures especially since 9/11 are a pain as are the incessant weekend engineering blockades on the East coast main line, I travel from the North East to KX 2 or 3 times a month and try and find feasible alternative's whereever possible, even if it means flying with London Airways to Heathrow which is a pain in the proverbial. Or have been known to take the train north to Edinburgh and fly to London city from Turnhouse as financially it made sense but not the best use of time but that’s okay for as I am retired.

 

[Lewisham2221]

London to Bordeaux for a long weekend, out on Friday 13th March return Monday 16th.

Eurostar prices over £200 for the outward, coming back is £144.

British Airways from Gatwick £166 return (other ‘cheaper’ airlines are available) Yes, you’ve got baggage and seats to consider but at those sort of prices why is anyone going Eurostar/TGV.

Normally I hate these comparisons, but that's usually because it's some absolute tool on social media taking a longish distance, peak time journey, return, involving at least one major UK city, departing the same day - and trying to compare it with a Ryanair flight at an unspecified future date, from an airport 50+ miles from their location, to some European destination where the airport is at least 50 miles away from the advertised city and you have to pay almost double if you want the privilege of being able to board the plane in your big coat*

(* - I'm deliberately exaggerating, just to clarify)

But in terms of a journey from the UK to France, I just can't make the numbers work with Eurostar. It's not really any more convenient than flying - I live ~150 miles from London, so that's already another train journey and a walk or tube transfer and unless I just happen to be staying in the immediate vicinity of Gare du Nord or Lille Europe, it involves further walking and metro and/or rail and/or bus transfers depending on where exactly I'm going.

 

[Tetragon213]

London to Bordeaux for a long weekend, out on Friday 13th March return Monday 16th.

Eurostar prices over £200 for the outward, coming back is £144.

British Airways from Gatwick £166 return (other ‘cheaper’ airlines are available) Yes, you’ve got baggage and seats to consider but at those sort of prices why is anyone going Eurostar/TGV.

At least in my company, there is a blanket unwritten rule of "no flights if a line manager can conjure up a rail itinerary" because of "green travel".

I've been on the Eurostar once for the experience, and while it was nice, I won't be doing it again as it was just so unbelievably expensive just to get to Brussels and back.

 

[Krokodil]

Takeoffs. and, to a lesser extent, landings are quite fun, I find.

Yes, but there aren't many of them per flight. Hopefully the same number of each.

I was just glad to be finally in the air after an hour delay rectifying a fault.