Train vs Plane

[RT4038]

I haven't checked this but is the TGV fare the turn up and go price, and the airline price is the advance price? The media love telling their readers how cheap flying is by finding some advance fare of £60 or whatever, and comparing it to the on-station price quoted on National Rail or wherever. AS other have pointed out, all the ancillary costs and headaches of flyng are conveniently overlooked in many of these comparisons. Personally I'm happy to pay a little extra not to breathe in the flatus of a hundred and fifty obese passengers for an hour or two.

The ancillary costs and headaches of travelling long distance by train are also conveniently overlooked by the rail protagonists too. Getting to a station, multiple connections, changing stations en route, consistency and quality of refreshments, long journey times, poor customer service in times of disruption.....

As an enthusiast, a train trip from Edinburgh to Exeter is fine as an annual trip for leisure when time is plentiful. I will overlook overcrowding, the constant turmoil in the coach due to the number and frequency of stops, the lack of refreshments ( would get refreshments on an 8hr plane journey - can't even buy something to airline style on the train, let along be given it as a matter of course), signal stops, lurching over points, punctuality lottery, the overall travelling time etc. Have to make the journey any more often? - no thanks. Please no lectures about being able to work on a train - with all that noise and disturbance - only in extremis would that be possible. The actual plane journey - i.e. closed up in the passenger carrying compartment is about 90min(?) compared to 8hr - and it is that restricted seated activity that most people compare, not the overall trip.

As for international travel - I travel from the Midlands to both Munich and Vienna (on separate trips or both together) regularly. I avoid planes and am a train enthusiast, but am sorely tried by the fairly miserable experience - the cost and hassle of ticket and reservation purchase compared to air tickets, the changing of stations, the multiple connections, the worrying about missing connections and the inevitable hassle that subsequently causes, the misery of changing trains at bedlam stations such as Cologne or Frankfurt, the overcrowding, poor punctuality and poor/pricey food on DB trains, and the length of journey (18hr to Vienna, which can only just be done in a day - and don't get me going about Sleeping Cars.....). The best sections are the relative calmness of the E* and (if I go that way) the TGV from Paris Est to Mannheim/Stuttgart, both with all reserved seating and lengthy runs between stops. It is small wonder that train travel has such a small market share compared to air.

 

[Broucek]

The announcement that China has agreed to allow British Citizens to travel to the country for up to 30 days visa free had us speculating over lunch how we could visit China from the UK by train given we prefer not to fly nowadays for environmental reasons. Not really a discussion for this thread though and currently not feasible anyway because of the situation in various countries en route.

The visa thing is a win. Unless you could plan weeks in advance (not always possible for business travellers) UK peeps had to use a transit visa and return home via HK or Japan....

 

[markle]

I'd love to do the Trans-Mongolian, but I'll hold off until Russia applies for readmission to the human race.

About 15 years ago I did London to Tokyo by train and boat: London > Brussels > Cologne > Copenhagen > Stockholm > Helsinki > St P > Moscow > Irkutsk > Ulaanbaatar > Beijing > Shanghai > Qingdao > Seoul > Busan > Fukuoka > Osaka > Tokyo

Did it over six weeks, stopping off along the way. Fabulous trip and very sad that it seems like it will be a long time before it's possible for anyone to make a similar trip again.

 

[RT4038]

About 15 years ago I did London to Tokyo by train and boat: London > Brussels > Cologne > Copenhagen > Stockholm > Helsinki > St P > Moscow > Irkutsk > Ulaanbaatar > Beijing > Shanghai > Qingdao > Seoul > Busan > Fukuoka > Osaka > Tokyo

Did it over six weeks, stopping off along the way. Fabulous trip and very sad that it seems like it will be a long time before it's possible for anyone to make a similar trip again.

I did something similar 18 years ago - London > Paris > Munich > Vienna > Budapest > Kiev > Moscow* > Irkutsk > Manzhouli > Harbin > Peking* > Canton > Hong Kong (* stopovers only at these points). Returned by air. 3 week holiday. Can't do Kiev-Moscow at the moment!

 

[Broucek]

Even flying to Japan is tricky due to the war - you have to go via Alaska and Greenland

 

[markle]

Even flying to Japan is tricky due to the war - you have to go via Alaska and Greenland

They're currently flying via Georgia / Azerbaijan then over the Stans and China - e.g. https://fr24.com/data/flights/ba7#3e0f96c2

 

[Broucek]

They're currently flying via Georgia / Azerbaijan then over the Stans and China - e.g. https://fr24.com/data/flights/ba7#3e0f96c2

Interesting. I flew back from Tokyo last year by travelling East...

 

[edwin_m]

Interesting. I flew back from Tokyo last year by travelling East...

In the 1980s a relative of mine flew regularly to Japan on business, at a time when the Soviets wouldn't allow the more modern aircraft into their airspace in case it gave the game away on how much more advanced the evil capitalists were. He usually went via Anchorage but did go the other way at least once, possibly after a Soviet change of policy. On that occasion, due to headwinds I think, they had to land at some obscure airport in Siberia to refuel, during which the passengers were kept in a dingy lounge with no amenities other than a pile of books of Brezhnev's speeches. I think he reverted to the Anchorage route after that.

I'd be nervous about even flying over Russian airspace at present (as non-European airlines are still doing). For me the risk is too great landing there due to some problem (or even an invented problem like Belarus did with Ryanair to grab a dissident) and someone deciding a load of Westerners were too useful to just go on their way.

 

[Bald Rick]

They're currently flying via Georgia / Azerbaijan then over the Stans and China - e.g. https://fr24.com/data/flights/ba7#3e0f96c2

Interesting. I flew back from Tokyo last year by travelling East...

They are flying either way, depending on the weather.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Interesting. I flew back from Tokyo last year by travelling East...

They’re generally flying east in both directions, because of the prevailing winds. So outbound to Japan via the stans, return from Japan over Canada and Greenland.

 

[Broucek]

They’re generally flying east in both directions, because of the prevailing winds. So outbound to Japan via the stans, return from Japan over Canada and Greenland.

Thanks. My outbound wasn't direct

 

[BazingaTribe]

Turkish Airlines is making a killing routing flights via Istanbul. I'm travelling to Uzbekistan as I discussed earlier in the thread, and if China is offering 30 days visa free travel...Xian sounds nice in the autumn!

 

[Tetragon213]

Turkish Airlines is making a killing routing flights via Istanbul. I'm travelling to Uzbekistan as I discussed earlier in the thread, and if China is offering 30 days visa free travel...Xian sounds nice in the autumn!

I imagine a lot of the ME airlines are making a lot of money in this time period.

Their entire business model revolves around connecting passengers through their hubs in the ME, which by necessity avoids overflying Russia.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The visa thing is a win. Unless you could plan weeks in advance (not always possible for business travellers) UK peeps had to use a transit visa and return home via HK or Japan....

I didn't notice a reciprocal visa-free deal for Chinese citizens to enter the UK.
We still have our "hostile environment" intact.
A UK visitor visa would cost £127.

 

[signed]

I didn't notice a reciprocal visa-free deal for Chinese citizens to enter the UK.
We still have our "hostile environment" intact.
A UK visitor visa would cost £127.

What happened when they opened to the EU and France for the 15 days was they made easier to settle (I can't remember clearly) in France after studies in the country for PRC citizens

Wonder if something like that has been arranged

 

[RGM654]

Well the actual flying is if I've managed to get a window seat lined up with a window, and without the wing / engine impeding my view. And, of course, it's the only practical way to Frankfurt. But the 2-hour checking isn't. Nor is passport control at Frankfurt. Nor is the almost an hour shuffling in a queue slowly through Border Control when I get back. Thank goodness there are toilet airside. Nor is having to wend my way through lots of overpriced shops with heavy whiffs of perfume to get to the gate. Nor are the prices for food & drink at airports.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2026 ==



I guess Barra would be right up your street then!

I have travelled from London to Frankfurt and back by train at least once, in 2008 for a meeting there.
Checking my records I find that I also returned by train once in 2010, having flown out.

 

[styles]

I have travelled from London to Frankfurt and back by train at least once, in 2008 for a meeting there.
Checking my records I find that I also returned by train once in 2010, having flown out.

I have done it once.

Actually I was going to Freising for work, which involved a couple of extra changes, but Frankfurt was one of my connections and getting there from London is a single change at Brussel. I found it quite scenic.

 

[RT4038]

I have travelled from London to Frankfurt and back by train at least once, in 2008 for a meeting there.
Checking my records I find that I also returned by train once in 2010, having flown out.

From where I live in the Midlands, the train journey by train to Frankfurt takes about 9hr and involves two changes, one including a 15 min walk down the street. i.e. practically takes up the whole day. The journey by plane takes about 4.5hr and involves one change, using a people mover over a similar distance. i.e. practically a morning or an afternoon or evening.

Of course, there will be those who do not value the time saving, or the easier interchange at fewer connecting points, or the easier air ticketing; or they just love trains. Or they may live in a particularly advantageous position to the E* terminal vs. an airport

However, I think there are a lot of people who would view the additional 4.5hr journey time as a waste and/or inconvenience and would there not consider that journey as practical. It is possible to go from the UK to Frankfurt by train; whether it is practical is subjective and very much influenced by your view on the above factors.

 

[Mikey C]

From where I live in the Midlands, the train journey by train to Frankfurt takes about 9hr and involves two changes, one including a 15 min walk down the street. i.e. practically takes up the whole day. The journey by plane takes about 4.5hr and involves one change, using a people mover over a similar distance. i.e. practically a morning or an afternoon or evening.

Of course, there will be those who do not value the time saving, or the easier interchange at fewer connecting points, or the easier air ticketing; or they just love trains. Or they may live in a particularly advantageous position to the E* terminal vs. an airport

However, I think there are a lot of people who would view the additional 4.5hr journey time as a waste and/or inconvenience and would there not consider that journey as practical. It is possible to go from the UK to Frankfurt by train; whether it is practical is subjective and very much influenced by your view on the above factors.

Even if there was a direct train (at a decent speed) from the Midlands to Frankfurt, that would still be a long journey, long enough to make flying much more attractive for a majority of passengers, especially if travelling on business.

 

[edwin_m]

The rule of thumb tends to be that if the train can offer a 3hr journey time it will win most of the custom from the plane.

 

[Tetragon213]

The rule of thumb tends to be that if the train can offer a 3hr journey time it will win most of the custom from the plane.

Even then, not always.

Shinkansen operates between Tokyo and Osaka, taking around 2:30 to cover the distance. The fastest services do it in about 2:16 iirc. Despite this, JAL and ANA both still operate flights between Tokyo and Osaka, and a family friend who travels often for business does this, because (astonishingly) flying is cheaper than Shinkansen. Yes, a literal flying machine that burns hundreds of tonnes of kerosene is still cheaper than a train, on one of the most well utilised HSR corridors on the planet. Not to mention that he gets air miles from flying with JAL.

When even in Japan aviation manages to be cheaper than rail, some rethinking about the economics of rail may be necessary.

 

[RT4038]

Even if there was a direct train (at a decent speed) from the Midlands to Frankfurt, that would still be a long journey, long enough to make flying much more attractive for a majority of passengers, especially if travelling on business.

Well quite. A direct train from 'The Midlands' , presumably most likely Birmingham New Street, and stopping somewhere in London plus Brussels, Cologne (at least) would likely take about 8 hr including check in time. Still far longer than the air journey. Personally (as travelling to New Street is taking me further in the wrong direction) , this would be slower than my current train journey between home and Frankfurt. Any of which are far over the threshold of

The rule of thumb tends to be that if the train can offer a 3hr journey time it will win most of the custom from the plane.

So it is hardly worth anyone even contemplating introducing such a service.

 

[edwin_m]

Even then, not always.

Shinkansen operates between Tokyo and Osaka, taking around 2:30 to cover the distance. The fastest services do it in about 2:16 iirc. Despite this, JAL and ANA both still operate flights between Tokyo and Osaka, and a family friend who travels often for business does this, because (astonishingly) flying is cheaper than Shinkansen. Yes, a literal flying machine that burns hundreds of tonnes of kerosene is still cheaper than a train, on one of the most well utilised HSR corridors on the planet. Not to mention that he gets air miles from flying with JAL.

When even in Japan aviation manages to be cheaper than rail, some rethinking about the economics of rail may be necessary.

Some of these air passengers may also be interlining to/from longer-distance flights, for which it makes sense to avoid the transfer to/from the airport. If there's an airside transfer then the time at the interchanging airport is also less than if accessing it by train. How does the daily number of seats offered compare between flights and the train?

 

[AlterEgo]

Some of these air passengers may also be interlining to/from longer-distance flights, for which it makes sense to avoid the transfer to/from the airport. If there's an airside transfer then the time at the interchanging airport is also less than if accessing it by train. How does the daily number of seats offered compare between flights and the train?

Some of them are, no doubt, but O+D domestic air travel in Japan is massive. Both Boeing and Airbus make bespoke short haul widebody planes in very dense configurations solely for the Japanese market. It would be difficult to underestimate the need for presenteeism in Japanese business and visiting clients is the norm. Something like 100-120m domestic passengers every year.

 

[BazingaTribe]

Some of them are, no doubt, but O+D domestic air travel in Japan is massive. Both Boeing and Airbus make bespoke short haul widebody planes in very dense configurations solely for the Japanese market. It would be difficult to underestimate the need for presenteeism in Japanese business and visiting clients is the norm. Something like 100-120m domestic passengers every year.

Indeed. The most fatalities on a single commercial airline happened when a 747 flying from Tokyo to Osaka crashed on a hill near Tokyo.

The original point of the thread was that train fares within developed countries are not much different to those in the UK. Personally if I can get there on the ground then I'd prefer to go on the ground, but I just don't have the same business needs as others and live in the south of England, so my perspective is my own.

 

[Broucek]

I wonder what the seat pitch for those wide bodied short-haul Japanese aircraft is? Most UK/EU flights are pretty uncomfortable in economy for anyone more than about 5'9" tall but the bigger aircraft have a little more room. (And Japanese people are, on average, shorter than Europeans.)

 

[styles]

Well quite. A direct train from 'The Midlands' , presumably most likely Birmingham New Street, and stopping somewhere in London plus Brussels, Cologne (at least) would likely take about 8 hr including check in time. Still far longer than the air journey. Personally (as travelling to New Street is taking me further in the wrong direction) , this would be slower than my current train journey between home and Frankfurt. Any of which are far over the threshold of

So it is hardly worth anyone even contemplating introducing such a service.

My employer at the time was quite happy for me to travel from the Midlands to Freising (via Frankfurt) entirely by train. I could work on the train, as many white collar workers can now, so there wasn't lost productivity, and it looked better on their environmental credentials. It did cost more than a flight, but some employers do have policies which are more than just about money (in fact the classic never buy a 1st class train ticket policy is an example of this).