"Greater Manchester commuters to benefit from more train carriages"

[WestCoast]

Interesting article...

Published by Rail.co

Greater Manchester transport leaders have ‘cautiously welcomed’ the Department for Transport’s announcement that Northern Rail will receive a further 22 extra train carriages this December.

This will bring the total to 60 since spring 2010 – but also say the government must continue to take steps to reduce further overcrowding for passengers.

Some of the additional rolling stock, which will be redeployed from other parts of the national rail network, will be used to provide extra seats on some of the busiest services in and around Greater Manchester.

Councillor Andrew Fender, Chair of Transport for Greater Manchester, said:

“The announcement is encouraging news, although we must remember that the announcement covers the entire network presently operated by Northern.”

LINK TO ARTICLE on Rail.co

 

[NSEFAN]

I like the 'cautious welcome'! Are these the 319s, or misc displaced DMUs?

 

[BlythPower]

Presumably 150s from LM and the returning 142s from FGW. 319s won't be spare for many years yet.

 

[anthony263]

I like the 'cautious welcome'! Are these the 319s, or misc displaced DMUs?

It will be another 5-6 years before any class 319's are free up from Thameslink

 

[Solent&Wessex]

They are either the 5 Class 322's going to Neville Hill, or returning 142's from FGW to Newton Heath at a guess.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

7x142 back from FGW, 4x150 from LM, Northern will, however, lose 15 vehicles (3x180).

 

[northwichcat]

It's the 4 additional 150s from LM and the 142s being confirmed as returning that make up the 22 extra carriages. In total it's:


36 x 150 carriages from LM for Northern
22 x 150 carriages from LM for FGW
6 x 150 carriages from LM remaining at LM
14 x 142 carriages transferred from FGW to Northern
8 x 156 carriages transferred from Northern to EMT
15 x 180 carriages leaving Northern - no future confirmed.
2 x 153 carriages leaving LM for FGW.

The 150/0s plus the mismatched 150/2 cars are as yet unallocated.

 

[gnolife]

They are either the 5 Class 322's going to Neville Hill, or returning 142's from FGW to Newton Heath at a guess.

the class 322s going to Neville Hill have approximately nothing to do with reducing overcrowding on the Gtr. Manchester lines - they're being used in Leeds - Unless theyre freeing up DMUs to work coupled to other GM trains (they'd be welcomed on the Atherton line!)

 

[swt_passenger]

7x142 back from FGW, 4x150 from LM, Northern will, however, lose 15 vehicles (3x180).

That's not correct.

As discussed many times here before the 3 x 180s are being replaced by 6 of the 150s which were included in last year's allocation to Northern of 14 150s. As shown in that DfT FOI response we've been discussing in god knows how many other threads already.

That was 14 x 150 units (28 vehicles)
6 (12) to replace the 180s
4(8) to replace 4(8) 156s off to EMT
4(8) additional (not much I know...)

So this latest announcement does not allow for replacing the 180s all over again, despite posters in a few forums suggesting this...

 

[150222]

I think the dmu's freed up by the 322's are going to strengthen calder valley services.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the dmu's freed up by the 322's are going to strengthen calder valley services.

I'm sure you're right, and it was all announced at the time in a DfT press release: http://www.dft.gov.uk/news/press-releases/dft-press-20110413
and I'd be surprised if there isn't an earlier thread about it here.

What doesn't help with the overall picture is reading completely misleading stuff such as on usually helpful 'thejunction' website, where he suggests that the arrival of the 322s is designed to allow the 180s to be cascaded. :roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I note that Councillor Andrew Fender, Chair of TfGM, was very careful to end his comment with:-
The agreement covers the entire network presently operated by Northern

It is not so many months ago when TfGM made a statement about a certain number of carriages coming on to the Northern network and that Greater Manchester would benefit. The units in question were electric units that would only be used in West Yorkshire. The only benefit for Greater Manchester was a couple of DMU from West Yorkshire being used to strengthen certain rush-hour train services from Manchester on the Caldervale line.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That's not correct.

As discussed many times here before the 3 x 180s are being replaced by 6 of the 150s which were included in last year's allocation to Northern of 14 150s. As shown in that DfT FOI response we've been discussing in god knows how many other threads already.

That was 14 x 150 units (28 vehicles)
6 (12) to replace the 180s
4(8) to replace 4(8) 156s off to EMT
4(8) additional (not much I know...)

So this latest announcement does not allow for replacing the 180s all over again, despite posters in a few forums suggesting this...

It was based on what I thought Northern had said to it's staff in the company magazine, maybe I read it wrong.

 

[tbtc]

That's not correct.

As discussed many times here before the 3 x 180s are being replaced by 6 of the 150s which were included in last year's allocation to Northern of 14 150s. As shown in that DfT FOI response we've been discussing in god knows how many other threads already.

That was 14 x 150 units (28 vehicles)
6 (12) to replace the 180s
4(8) to replace 4(8) 156s off to EMT
4(8) additional (not much I know...)

So this latest announcement does not allow for replacing the 180s all over again, despite posters in a few forums suggesting this...

So really the "22" new carriages are the eight you have highlighted plus the fourteen 142 carriages.

However, the other swaps will mean a slight capacity increase - since the inefficient use of 180s (one third of them unused each day - i.e. only two of three used) will be replaced by more intense use of the 142/150s (maybe 80/85/90% use of stock instead?).

Its all about Manchester though - no light at the end of the tunnel if you are using busy Northern services elsewhere

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I note that Councillor Andrew Fender, Chair of TfGM, was very careful to end his comment with:-
The agreement covers the entire network presently operated by Northern

It is not so many months ago when TfGM made a statement about a certain number of carriages coming on to the Northern network and that Greater Manchester would benefit. The units in question were electric units that would only be used in West Yorkshire. The only benefit for Greater Manchester was a couple of DMU from West Yorkshire being used to strengthen certain rush-hour train services from Manchester on the Caldervale line.

But the extra EMUs will go onto electric lines only, the diesel routes around Leeds will still have the same number of coaches, yet you propose that they move to Manchester...

 

[swt_passenger]

So really the "22" new carriages are the eight you have highlighted plus the fourteen 142 carriages.

No, the 8 carriages (4 units) announced earlier this week are from the previously unallocated ex LM stock, not the ones listed above, which were dealt with last year - although they have obviously not yet arrived due to the 172 delays - and I think that might be what is causing the confusion.

If you go back to the previous announcement last year there were 26 x 150 carriages left unallocated, a mixture of 2 and 3 car (reformed) units, and their eventual use was still to be decided. In a worst case scenario they would ALL have gone off lease, but they have now been divided up between the three relevant TOCs as follows:

8 carriages (4 units) to Northern
4 (2) to FGW
6 (3) remain with LM
8 spare - these last few consisting of the two 3 car 150/0s and 2 spare vehicles.

 

[tbtc]

No, the 8 carriages (4 units) announced earlier this week are from the previously unallocated ex LM stock, not the ones listed above, which were dealt with last year - although they have obviously not yet arrived due to the 172 delays - and I think that might be what is causing the confusion.

If you go back to the previous announcement last year there were 26 x 150 carriages left unallocated, a mixture of 2 and 3 car (reformed) units, and their eventual use was still to be decided. In a worst case scenario they would ALL have gone off lease, but they have now been divided up between the three relevant TOCs as follows:

8 carriages (4 units) to Northern
4 (2) to FGW
6 (3) remain with LM
8 spare - these last few consisting of the two 3 car 150/0s and 2 spare vehicles.

Ah, okay, I think I understand.

Keeping just three with LM seems a daft idea - if they can't get any additional 172s then I'd suggest Northern giving them half a dozen 153s instead (giving LM some stock efficiencies, notwithstanding one busy service a day on the Marston Vale line which a 153 is too short for)

 

[WestCoast]

Its all about Manchester though - no light at the end of the tunnel if you are using busy Northern services elsewhere

I remember the thread which descended into a heated debate about which area has the worst stock on the Northern network.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I remember the thread which descended into a heated debate about which area has the worst stock on the Northern network.

But to be fair when it comes down to it for a city the Size of Manchester (apart from the 323's) we have the crappiest stock by a country mile heck they are even getting rid of 156's for...142's woohoo, the eastern got all the 158's and they got replaced with...156's which we are now losing (some of)

 

[northwichcat]

Its all about Manchester though - no light at the end of the tunnel if you are using busy Northern services elsewhere

If you look at the DfT press releases they state Manchester will be the main beneficiary from the cascades. With other beneficiaries in descending order: Leeds, Sheffield*, Liverpool* and Newcastle.

Newcastle only gets one extra train, so not much benefit, but one is better than none.

Manchester being the main beneficiary makes a change from the past few years where it's been mainly Leeds and occasionally Liverpool.

* Was the other way around before yesterday's announcement, so yesterday's announcement does mean more carriages for the Sheffield area.

 

[WestCoast]

But to be fair when it comes down to it for a city the Size of Manchester (apart from the 323's) we have the crappiest stock by a country mile heck they are even getting rid of 156's for...142's woohoo, the eastern got all the 158's and they got replaced with...156's which we are now losing (some of)

Yes, I know. The North West has the worst pacers too, with either bus benches or the yellow Miseryfail seating...:roll:

 

[tbtc]

If you look at the DfT press releases they state Manchester will be the main beneficiary from the cascades. With other beneficiaries in descending order: Leeds, Sheffield*, Liverpool* and Newcastle.

Newcastle only gets one extra train, so not much benefit, but one is better than none.

Manchester being the main beneficiary makes a change from the past few years where it's been mainly Leeds and occasionally Liverpool.

* Was the other way around before yesterday's announcement, so yesterday's announcement does mean more carriages for the Sheffield area.

Do you know what Sheffield improvements there will be, because all I've seen is mention of one Manchester - New Mills service being extended to Sheffield to form a 18.14 return (allowing the TPE/EMT services through the Hope Valley to be speeded up marginally)?

 

[telstarbox]

4-car EMT 158s?

 

[Lampshade]

Yes, the 4x156s going to EMT are meant to extend all Liverpool services to 4 cars.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But to be fair when it comes down to it for a city the Size of Manchester (apart from the 323's) we have the crappiest stock by a country mile heck they are even getting rid of 156's for...142's woohoo, the eastern got all the 158's and they got replaced with...156's which we are now losing (some of)

As usual, your input from your experiance as a person who actually has to work on these units is greatly appreciated. You have stated the case to perfection.

I count myself very lucky to have Class 323 units on our local line and not to have to suffer from the Class 142 units with the "bus seats with metal grab top rails attached" of 3 +2 type seating.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I remember the thread which descended into a heated debate about which area has the worst stock on the Northern network.

You are not the only one to remember this debate, which seemed to be a reincarnation of "The Battle of the Roses".

 

[northwichcat]

Do you know what Sheffield improvements there will be, because all I've seen is mention of one Manchester - New Mills service being extended to Sheffield to form a 18.14 return (allowing the TPE/EMT services through the Hope Valley to be speeded up marginally)?

Northern's Hope Valley stopper, Victoria-Lime Street and EMT's Liverpool-Norwich are the only diesel routes confirmed as getting extra carriages. Northern's Liverpool-Manchester Oxford Rd service, Bolton-Manchester and Leeds-Sheffield via Wakefield are rumoured as getting more 4 car workings, but those are just rumours.

Judging by the number of extra seats quoted you'll see 8-10 extra Northern carriages arriving in Sheffield in the morning peak and departing Sheffield in the evening peak.

 

[snail]

I count myself very lucky to have Class 323 units on our local line and not to have to suffer from the Class 142 units with the "bus seats with metal grab top rails attached" of 3 +2 type seating.

At least the bus seats have a reasonable amount of leg room and are at a sensible pitch. I would much rather travel on them than some of the 150 configurations. The ex-Merseyrail units are naturally the worst of the lot, with the ex-Arriva North 2+2 good for space but the seat backs slope too much for me and having seats in opposite directions across the aisle is just mad.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But the extra EMUs will go onto electric lines only, the diesel routes around Leeds will still have the same number of coaches, yet you propose that they move to Manchester...

I suggest that you take the opportunity to read my posting again which concerned matters earlier in 2011. You say above that I proposed that the stated replacement units move to Manchester...how did you ever make such an assumption from what I had written?

All I did was to clarify that ALL the electric units would be used in West Yorkshire and all that Greater Manchester would receive from this allocation was peak hour DMU strengthening on the Caldervale line services.

I would have responded to your posting sooner, but I was unable to, at that time.

 

[tbtc]

All I did was to clarify that ALL the electric units would be used in West Yorkshire and all that Greater Manchester would receive from this allocation was peak hour DMU strengthening on the Caldervale line services

To be pedantic, the Leeds-area electrified services do extend to Skipton (North Yorkshire, four EMUs per hour) and Doncaster (South Yorkshire, one EMU per hour).

Granted, its narrow corridors (and the twenty EMU coaches arriving are less useful than twenty DMU coaches would be, given their ability to run on other lines too)...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To be pedantic, the Leeds-area electrified services do extend to Skipton (North Yorkshire, four EMUs per hour) and Doncaster (South Yorkshire, one EMU per hour).

Granted, its narrow corridors (and the twenty EMU coaches arriving are less useful than twenty DMU coaches would be, given their ability to run on other lines too)...

Is it true that the majority of the DMU cascaded by the use of the EMU on the lines of useage in West Yorkshire, in that particular re-allocation, would still remain on other parts of the eastern side of the Pennines that needed fleet strengthening there? As far as I know, only two or three of these DMU were intended to strengthen peak-hour services on the Caldervale line.