TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains

[slowroad]

The saloons are heated up to a pre-determined temparture and cuts out. on the 756 this is 21 degrees, and is fed from vents near the doors at floor level. The driver is able to +2 or -2 the system on TCMS, but the guards have no control over it.

I was on 398028 in the summer during test, that's all I'll say is passengers will be very disapointed compared to the 756. We had all the saloon windows down and it was very warm indeed.

If Stadler are describing their own product accurately, opening the windows will render the cooling system ineffective.

 

[VR494]

If Stadler are describing their own product accurately, opening the windows will render the cooling system ineffective.

The product was inherited by Stadler when they bought out Vossloh in 2015, it's not their design, only branding applied.

The trial runs have also been cancelled today again due to unit failures, the issue is rain water leaking in and soaking the electrics in the roof, which is where the brake control units are located

 

[Cardiff123]

Whatever happens with the 398s, they won't enter service before the Senedd election, as the May TT change is after the election on 7 May, so the fact the 398s are so heavily delayed won't register with most of the general public. All they will see is that the Valleys has new FLIRT trains running.
Once the Welsh Parliament is dissolved at the end of March, Welsh Labour government ministers will not be allowed to make videos on FLIRTs or 197s, or use TfW resources to score political points.

 

[Chris125]

We had all the saloon windows down and it was very warm indeed.

Are you saying the saloon air-con is poor/non-existent because it was warm inside with the windows *open*?

 

[VR494]

Are you saying the saloon air-con is poor/non-existent because it was warm inside with the windows *open*?

Yes very much. We did have a very warm summer, and the giant windows didn't help either. The cabs as I've mentioned are the area's where the aircon is mostly focused.

The units themselves are very basic, passengers will be able to open windows, they are very much like a modern pacer

A good video here:

which shows a tour of taffs well depot.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jan 2026 ==

There is also similar version of the 398 in operation in Hungary, these are fitted with diesel engines too

 

[slowroad]

The product was inherited by Stadler when they bought out Vossloh in 2015, it's not their design, only branding applied.

The trial runs have also been cancelled today again due to unit failures, the issue is rain water leaking in and soaking the electrics in the roof, which is where the brake control units are located

I’m still confused as to why Stadler should describe the passenger accommodation as air conditioned if it is not, even if the product was inherited. Are you saying that it is not air conditioned, or that that air conditioning is not fully effective? If tha latter, the purchasers might have a claim.

 

[VR494]

I’m still confused as to why Stadler should describe the passenger accommodation as air conditioned if it is not, even if the product was inherited. Are you saying that it is not air conditioned, or that that air conditioning is not fully effective? If tha latter, the purchasers might have a claim.

The air conditioning is the least of the problems. It is a product that was purchased back before covid, then delivered and left to sit and gather dust for years before they moved. Then for the operating company to start complaining that it’s not working, I’d imagine the Welsh assembly will soon publish a report when it all goes down hill soon.

It’s going to be interesting year, watch and see what happens. At the moment tfw seem more concerned in buses and cycling than getting a railway working that’s value for the people of Wales.

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if these things are not even in service for the December TT.

 

[Daniel Boone]

The air conditioning is the least of the problems. It is a product that was purchased back before covid, then delivered and left to sit and gather dust for years before they moved. Then for the operating company to start complaining that it’s not working, I’d imagine the Welsh assembly will soon publish a report when it all goes down hill soon.

It’s going to be interesting year, watch and see what happens. At the moment tfw seem more concerned in buses and cycling than getting a railway working that’s value for the people of Wales.

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if these things are not even in service for the December TT.

What are your credentials?

 

[Caaardiff]

At the moment tfw seem more concerned in buses and cycling than getting a railway working that’s value for the people of Wales.

Given that TFW and TFW Rail are two separate entities, I'm not entirely convinced by your summary there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jan 2026 ==

Can anyone confirm for definite the status of air-con on the 398's?
As a quick google search has brought up two articles, one from TFW themselves, that state they have Air-con.
Or are we to trust the words of someone who joined the forum less than 24 hours ago?

https://news.tfw.wales/news/new-metro-tram-train-in-testing

Supplied by leading manufacturer Stadler, the light rail vehicles will be able to run on both rail and tram lines and will operate on electrical lines and battery power. At 40 metres long the CITYLINK tram-trains can carry more than 250 passengers and on rail run at 100km per hour.

The high-floor vehicles feature spacious, bright and air-conditioned passenger compartments with six multifunctional areas for bicycles, seats for people with reduced mobility and two wheelchair passenger spaces.

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2023/06/transport-for-wales-starts-testing-new-metro-tram-trains.html

 

[Chris125]

Yes very much. We did have a very warm summer, and the giant windows didn't help either. The cabs as I've mentioned are the area's where the aircon is mostly focused.

...but opening the windows means you're filling the saloon with heat from outside, reducing the benefit of air-con!?

 

[VR494]

Given that TFW and TFW Rail are two separate entities, I'm not entirely convinced by your summary there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jan 2026 ==

Can anyone confirm for definite the status of air-con on the 398's?
As a quick google search has brought up two articles, one from TFW themselves, that state they have Air-con.
Or are we to trust the words of someone who joined the forum less than 24 hours ago?

https://news.tfw.wales/news/new-metro-tram-train-in-testing




https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2023/06/transport-for-wales-starts-testing-new-metro-tram-trains.html

I’m afraid it was not working on 398028 as previously mentioned here. The summer trail runs also had issues, and one occasion the unit failed at Merthyr Tydfil which was a major set back on the hours. If this hadn’t have happened, you’d probably have seen one as early as January/February this year.

...but opening the windows means you're filling the saloon with heat from outside, reducing the benefit of air-con!?

Yes, but then again the doors will be opening and closing so often you won’t really get the benefit. I wouldn’t be surprised if it has been disconnected to save on maintenance costs.

Speaking with colleagues again today who are on the project they really don’t like running in multiple at the moment.

 

[ExRes]

There's a 6F40 on it's way from Kings Norton to Dalby. Is this bringing another Tram up to Asfordby Test Centre or just barrier wagons for another drag back to Taff Wells?

The power cars are spending the weekend at Old Dalby and will then work Mondays 1355 6Q37 to Kings Norton OTPD followed by Tuesdays 1000 6Q38 to Pengam Sdgs

 

[Envoy]

...but opening the windows means you're filling the saloon with heat from outside, reducing the benefit of air-con!?

Which is precisely what happens on Cardiff’s new electric buses in the summer. We all know that when driving our cars in summer to keep the windows shut, set the air con to on and switch on the fan to bring air through the cooler. So, it must surely be the same for public transport.

I am pleased to see that the 398’s have such large windows. I just hope that the low life will be told off if they decide to put their dirty feet up on the seat(s) opposite.

 

[Caaardiff]

I’m afraid it was not working on 398028 as previously mentioned here. The summer trail runs also had issues, and one occasion the unit failed at Merthyr Tydfil which was a major set back on the hours. If this hadn’t have happened, you’d probably have seen one as early as January/February this year.

So they do have air con? It just wasn't working.
Having it and sometimes it wasn't on/working is very different to them not having it.

 

[Bob Price]

I find the comment that Stadler aren't putting a lot of effort into these trains a bit suspect. They are not yet accepted by TfW so will be still on the books at Stadler and as such costing them money.

Having been on the wrong side of a project that ran over, I can guarantee they will want to get them sorted, in operation, and all bugs fixed ASAP.

 

[VR494]

I find the comment that Stadler aren't putting a lot of effort into these trains a bit suspect. They are not yet accepted by TfW so will be still on the books at Stadler and as such costing them money.

Having been on the wrong side of a project that ran over, I can guarantee they will want to get them sorted, in operation, and all bugs fixed ASAP.

There’s a lot more politics going on behind closed doors than we know about for sure.

In the summer the Stadler engineers on site at Taffs Well left and went home to Spain, yes leaving no support. Apparently this was an annual holiday. Which resulted in trial runs being put on hold. But went on for over a month a bit.

Stadler have now won a contract worth millions in Germany, left little support because the A team of techs have gone out to support DB. They were modifying the 398’s to try and make them better.

Yes there is a B team here, but apparently now the fitters won’t travel on trial runs either. I don’t believe they have paid for this level of support.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jan 2026 ==

So they do have air con? It just wasn't working.
Having it and sometimes it wasn't on/working is very different to them not having it.

We didn’t have any air conditioning honestly, the windows open however to provide a valley breeze! And when you do eventually get to go on one, you’ll be quite shocked how basic they are.
Speaking to a colleague we seem to think it’s either disconnected to save money, broken or the system has sat dormant for so long a recharge is needed.

 

[tfw756rider]

The power cars are spending the weekend at Old Dalby and will then work Mondays 1355 6Q37 to Kings Norton OTPD followed by Tuesdays 1000 6Q38 to Pengam Sdgs

Realtime Trains | 6Q37 1355 Old Dalby to Kings Norton Ot Plant Dept | 26/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 6Q37 1355 departure from Old Dalby to Kings Norton Ot Plant Dept on 26/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 6Q38 1000 Kings Norton Ot Plant Dept to Pengam Sidings | 27/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 6Q38 1000 departure from Kings Norton Ot Plant Dept to Pengam Sidings on 27/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 6M39 1544 Pengam Sidings to Kings Norton Ot Plant Dept | 27/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 6M39 1544 departure from Pengam Sidings to Kings Norton Ot Plant Dept on 27/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Chris125]

Yes, but then again the doors will be opening and closing so often you won’t really get the benefit. I wouldn’t be surprised if it has been disconnected to save on maintenance costs.

There's a clear difference between doors only being open during station stops, and windows being open throughout a journey when the train is moving at speed - these trains clearly have issues, like most new fleets, but lack of experience may be playing a role too.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Aitcondition

There's a clear difference between doors only being open during station stops, and windows being open throughout a journey when the train is moving at speed - these trains clearly have issues, like most new fleets, but lack of experience may be playing a role too.

I agree. Air-conditioning combined with windows that can be opened (which I like) is a recipe for confusion and miss-use. I do not expect any benefit from the air-conditioning if the windows are open in a car, bus or office. The challenge is for the air-conditioning to have been allowed to work long enough before people give up and open the windows.

In the case of the 398s we will be able to tell if the air-conditioning works this summer when condensation is seen dripping from the ceiling. Which seems to be a common feature on all new trains these days !.
But only if the windows are SHUT.

 

[positron]

If they really are so fatally flawed at what point do tfw have nothing left but to sue stadler? Lights and windscreens not being to spec are pretty basic failures and it sounds like there's a long list of others issues (even if the source is dubious).

The batterys being poor is a superise given the 756s seem to have surprisingly good battery range? I recall reading the range was above expectations, the same was also true for other stadler products.

Given these were procured as part of a project originally ran by a private franchise we have to be slightly lenient to modern Welsh government tfw if there's cost cutting in some of the designs they've inherited.

Stuff like the curve being too sharp at taffs well seems odd given it was designed that way specifically because of these vehicles. Though originally it was designed to have a single lead to the south as well as the north bound curves.

 

[VR494]

If they really are so fatally flawed at what point do tfw have nothing left but to sue stadler? Lights and windscreens not being to spec are pretty basic failures and it sounds like there's a long list of others issues (even if the source is dubious).

The batterys being poor is a superise given the 756s seem to have surprisingly good battery range? I recall reading the range was above expectations, the same was also true for other stadler products.

Given these were procured as part of a project originally ran by a private franchise we have to be slightly lenient to modern Welsh government tfw if there's cost cutting in some of the designs they've inherited.

Stuff like the curve being too sharp at taffs well seems odd given it was designed that way specifically because of these vehicles. Though originally it was designed to have a single lead to the south as well as the north bound curves.

I’m afraid the source of this information is not dubious in anyway, and it’s time TFW we’re more open and about the current situation.

I’ll explain more now in detail and the current situation on 398 project is as follows:

• Driver training - currently only a handful of instructors known as tier 1 and a select number of test drivers are trained to drive them. The initial plan was for these test drivers to operate between Cardiff Central and Severn Tunnel Junction to accumulate the fault free hours. Due to restrictions from Network rail, we were not allowed to operate them on the mainline or CVL due to timetable constraints. A plan was then made to send them to old Derby to run them there. All runs on the valleys have been for route proving, and in the summer last year a major fault occurred which reset the hours to zero again. Tier 2 instructors are yet to be trained up to deliver the training, and there is no official programme to date signed off and ready to be deployed. The pilot course has been delayed again due to constant failures. The new date for this is approximately late March, and this will need to signed off with both Aslef and RMT.
• Faults - at current the 398’s have had windscreen modifications due to the fact they were not laminated to railway specification. In doing this work seals were replaced which has covered over the original drainage system from the roof. Rainwater is now an issue, and is accumulating on the roof, which is leaking into vital electrical system, including the brake control units that are located in the roof. Two units failed at Treherbert last Friday with this issue. They are also having trouble with braking and running in multiple, and do not seem to like being coupled up. The windows will need to come out and be redone or an alternative drainage system implemented.
• Proposed operation - the 398’s are going to be operating in combined battery and overhead mode, the current system compared to the 756 is going to be an issue, and battery capacity is worst than thought. Class 756 units for comparison can do 70-80 miles on a charge where these can do roughly around 6 miles. The 756 also have a backup in forms of a diesel generator, these don’t have that. Operation around the city line, and any hold up is likely to result in a unit becoming stranded, and there is talks internally about what to do in the event of this happening. The 398’s require ideally full OLE support, and due to issues with capital and operational limitations this was not achievable. There is also an issue with the proposed door process, and senior management want full DCO operation of the doors, and tests have shown this process to be inadequate and it would be better suited to a driver open, guard close style method of work. However, this has been played down despite timing trails showing it to be quicker than the proposed method of work.
• Taffs Well depot - the design of the depot was restricted due to land being unable to be obtained, the current curve means only 398’s can be stored here. It takes so long for one unit to exit the depot due to the 3mph restriction on this that running units out for service in the morning is going to be an issue. A proposed idea was to couple units up and split them in the platform, however they would need a fitter to uncouple. The current plan would only see one fitter on shift at a time.
• 231 to mainline - A program to provide training to driver instructors has commenced and mainline will be learning these soon. I’d imagine remaining 150’s will be swapped out to cover the TAM to facilitate this.
• Toilets - installation of toilet facilities is underway at various platforms on the CVL, however budget has restricted works and these are delayed.

At current there are no 398’s signed off as fit and it’s unlikely the product will be available anytime soon. Its not what people want to hear, but safety is a priority and no matter how embarrassing it maybe, the concept in reality is just not working out as planned.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The windscreen issue - was this a failure by TfW to specify them properly, or the factory not following the specification they were given? Either way, it seems a massive oversighht on someone's part. (similar to the "only able to couple up in the depot" issue with the 458s as delivered.

 

[Cardiff123]

If the 398s are not able to operate in multiple once they enter passenger service, on the current timetable, it will be a big downgrade in capacity compared to the 756s, as one 398 is the same length as one 150, albeit with more standing room.

This article that was quoted earlier in
the thread highlights how hopelessly delayed the 398s are, dated June 2023 and saying the 398 would be "ready for passengers in 2024."

New Metro tram-train in testing

Brand-new tram-trains that will revolutionise public transport are now being tested on the South Wales Metro railway lines.

news.tfw.wales

I can't imagine we'll hear anything about this publicly from TfW or Welsh Govt before the Senedd election, and it'll be for the next Welsh Government to pick up the pieces.

 

[AdamWW]

I realise that's not how things work and perhaps I'm in a minority but I would actually feel more positive about TfW if they would say something when significant problems occur rather than just providing good news and going silent when things aren't going so well.

I suppose in a world where local journalism seems to have been largely reduced to copying out press releases this approach can work quite well.

Taffs Well depot - the design of the depot was restricted due to land being unable to be obtained, the current curve means only 398’s can be stored here. It takes so long for one unit to exit the depot due to the 3mph restriction on this that running units out for service in the morning is going to be an issue. A proposed idea was to couple units up and split them in the platform, however they would need a fitter to uncouple. The current plan would only see one fitter on shift at a time.

Shame they couldn't run into Taffs Well station on line of sight operation.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Thank you "VR494" for your assessmment, which I have to day is quite disturbing. I got the impressiom the 398s are a basic copy of a European design, but maybe with different traction voltages, and the whole host of gizmos to be operated on UKrail.com. The cab video posteed above of the Budapest 33125 suggested the design was quite simple to operate, but obviously on overhead power supply on a metro type operation, and with probably considerably smoother track than here in the UK.

I note the movement of a couple of 398s back from Old Dalby to Pengam as 6Qxx. Are the 398s cleared to operate under own power from Pengam to Taffs Well ?

Thanks again

 

[AdamWW]

The windscreen issue - was this a failure by TfW to specify them properly, or the factory not following the specification they were given? Either way, it seems a massive oversighht on someone's part. (similar to the "only able to couple up in the depot" issue with the 458s as delivered.

And as @positron pointed out, if the specifications were incorrectly written this would presumably have been down to KeolisAmey not TfW.

 

[trainspotter4]

I note the movement of a couple of 398s back from Old Dalby to Pengam as 6Qxx. Are the 398s cleared to operate under own power from Pengam to Taffs Well ?

Yes, they are cleared for this and is how they've been getting to and from Pengam for their trips to Old Derby, there has been photos of 398s going through Cardiff Central on their way to Pengam to then meet locos there.
This raises the question, if the batteries are 'so bad' (6 miles mentioned above), how do they manage slash why risk to go from the CVL to Pengam on battery operation only, they are not permitted to use NR SWML OLE.
I understand they obviously have to meet locos somewhere and this is probably the nearest site for this but surely 6 miles range approximately is not enough to go from CVL West (Waun-gron Park ish) to Pengam or is it?

 

[tfw756rider]

The batterys being poor is a superise given the 756s seem to have surprisingly good battery range? I recall reading the range was above expectations, the same was also true for other stadler products.

The product was inherited by Stadler when they bought out Vossloh in 2015, it's not their design, only branding applied.

As previously explained, the 398s and 399s (as well as the 68s and 88s) are products of the Spanish part of Stadler (what was Vossloh in Valencia until 2015), not the original Swiss part of Stadler that the 231s/745s/755s/756s come from.

So it's kind-of like what happened at Derby Litchurch lane in 2001 with Bombardier acquiring Turbostar/Electrostar from ADtranz, and then again in 2021 with Alstom acquiring Aventra from Bombardier:

It's a company (or in Stadler Valencia's case, a part of a company) making products they acquired from a company they took over (Vossloh España).

So, the 398 batteries could be from a different supplier to the 756 batteries, or there could be differences in how the batteries are implemented / controlled?

 

[StripeyNick]

Thank you "VR494" for your assessmment, which I have to day is quite disturbing. I got the impressiom the 398s are a basic copy of a European design, but maybe with different traction voltages, and the whole host of gizmos to be operated on UKrail.com. The cab video posteed above of the Budapest 33125 suggested the design was quite simple to operate, but obviously on overhead power supply on a metro type operation, and with probably considerably smoother track than here in the UK.

I note the movement of a couple of 398s back from Old Dalby to Pengam as 6Qxx. Are the 398s cleared to operate under own power from Pengam to Taffs Well ?

Thanks again

Yea, they run under their own power from Pengam to Taffs Well

 

[800001]

I’m afraid the source of this information is not dubious in anyway, and it’s time TFW we’re more open and about the current situation.

I’ll explain more now in detail and the current situation on 398 project is as follows:

• Driver training - currently only a handful of instructors known as tier 1 and a select number of test drivers are trained to drive them. The initial plan was for these test drivers to operate between Cardiff Central and Severn Tunnel Junction to accumulate the fault free hours. Due to restrictions from Network rail, we were not allowed to operate them on the mainline or CVL due to timetable constraints. A plan was then made to send them to old Derby to run them there. All runs on the valleys have been for route proving, and in the summer last year a major fault occurred which reset the hours to zero again. Tier 2 instructors are yet to be trained up to deliver the training, and there is no official programme to date signed off and ready to be deployed. The pilot course has been delayed again due to constant failures. The new date for this is approximately late March, and this will need to signed off with both Aslef and RMT.
• Faults - at current the 398’s have had windscreen modifications due to the fact they were not laminated to railway specification. In doing this work seals were replaced which has covered over the original drainage system from the roof. Rainwater is now an issue, and is accumulating on the roof, which is leaking into vital electrical system, including the brake control units that are located in the roof. Two units failed at Treherbert last Friday with this issue. They are also having trouble with braking and running in multiple, and do not seem to like being coupled up. The windows will need to come out and be redone or an alternative drainage system implemented.
• Proposed operation - the 398’s are going to be operating in combined battery and overhead mode, the current system compared to the 756 is going to be an issue, and battery capacity is worst than thought. Class 756 units for comparison can do 70-80 miles on a charge where these can do roughly around 6 miles. The 756 also have a backup in forms of a diesel generator, these don’t have that. Operation around the city line, and any hold up is likely to result in a unit becoming stranded, and there is talks internally about what to do in the event of this happening. The 398’s require ideally full OLE support, and due to issues with capital and operational limitations this was not achievable. There is also an issue with the proposed door process, and senior management want full DCO operation of the doors, and tests have shown this process to be inadequate and it would be better suited to a driver open, guard close style method of work. However, this has been played down despite timing trails showing it to be quicker than the proposed method of work.
• Taffs Well depot - the design of the depot was restricted due to land being unable to be obtained, the current curve means only 398’s can be stored here. It takes so long for one unit to exit the depot due to the 3mph restriction on this that running units out for service in the morning is going to be an issue. A proposed idea was to couple units up and split them in the platform, however they would need a fitter to uncouple. The current plan would only see one fitter on shift at a time.
• 231 to mainline - A program to provide training to driver instructors has commenced and mainline will be learning these soon. I’d imagine remaining 150’s will be swapped out to cover the TAM to facilitate this.
• Toilets - installation of toilet facilities is underway at various platforms on the CVL, however budget has restricted works and these are delayed.

At current there are no 398’s signed off as fit and it’s unlikely the product will be available anytime soon. Its not what people want to hear, but safety is a priority and no matter how embarrassing it maybe, the concept in reality is just not working out as planned.

Out of interest, why does a fitter need to be there to uncouple units?
Is it not like normal trains where a button is pressed and move unit?