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Liverpool City Region-Bus Franchising

markymark2000

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Mark's point seems to be that buses should just do the busy corridors with many times that per hour and ignore that kind of market -
That isn't what was said.

if I understand rightly, he effectively advocates for a commercial-only approach to buses with no tendering at all and prioritisation of resources based on maximum profit.
I do not (and have never) advocated for a commercial only approach with no tendering. What do however advocate for public funds to be spend wisely and I will call out where money is being wasted. In the 201 case, withdrawing it would leave not a single bus stop unserved. The 136 would leave poorly used bus stops unserved but I'd instead push for running a separate route similar to a slimmed down former 101 which served the housing estates where there was good amounts of proven demand (not profitable, but it wasn't a dead duck)

There are many good routes in Merseyside which are tendered and ran largely ok and there are some positive changes to what is currently the tendered network.
 
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Tetchytyke

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Similarly continuing the links down Great Howard Street are a joke. The current 2 service hardly carries anyone, the Isle of Man terminal bus before that was a waste of time. The 136 hardly picks anyone up that couldn't use another bus service.
The Isle of Man ferry terminal bus was always rammed when I used it. And of course it would be: the Isle of Man to Liverpool ferry route is predominantly foot passengers, and it is a long old walk from the new ferry terminal into the city centre.

Given the regeneration occurring in the ten streets area and around the new Isle of Man ferry terminal, I'd say a regular bus along that stretch of road is badly needed. It'll be interesting to see if this is replacing the 2 and, if so, whether they will take the opportunity to extend the route to somewhere like Bootle New Strand where it would be more useful.

It depends on the type of DRT. If you have something like the old Wiltshire Wigglybus, where you had a defined core route but that people could book a variation from the route (within reason), then that worked which is what I think you're alluding to in your final comment.

The tech-driven aggregation of volumes model doesn't work. As you say, you're likely to have one person having it as a personal taxi.
Without wishing to go too far off topic, the DRT in the north of the Isle of Man works to an extent because it has fixed times at the main traffic centres but can deviate from the route according to demand.

But generally aggregation of volumes simply doesn't work, as you say. If there is a notable volume of passengers all wanting to go to the same place at the same time then you may as well run a scheduled bus. If there isn't then, as you say, you're effectively running a cheap taxi service.

From what I saw of the Speke DRT scheme the buses either had at most 1 or 2 people on them or they were parked up in Morrisons car park.
 

markymark2000

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The Isle of Man ferry terminal bus was always rammed when I used it. And of course it would be: the Isle of Man to Liverpool ferry route is predominantly foot passengers, and it is a long old walk from the new ferry terminal into the city centre.
The link is fully worth it when the ferry is in. But there was the LW1 which ran for 6 months, daily every 30 minutes between 10am-7pm, then 7am-7pm, then weekends only 7am,-7pm. Given there is only a single IOM ferry each day, having such an extensive service to link into 1 ferry per day is silly. I fully support the link at the ferry times though, similar to what Als are currently running (only criticism of the Als service is that they should give example departure times rather than forcing passengers to decode the really cryptic explanations)
 

Fawkes Cat

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The link is fully worth it when the ferry is in. But there was the LW1 which ran for 6 months, daily every 30 minutes between 10am-7pm, then 7am-7pm, then weekends only 7am,-7pm. Given there is only a single IOM ferry each day, having such an extensive service to link into 1 ferry per day is silly. I fully support the link at the ferry times though, similar to what Als are currently running (only criticism of the Als service is that they should give example departure times rather than forcing passengers to decode the really cryptic explanations)
It seems to me that the obvious solution is for the 2 to run via the ferry terminal - maybe just at appropriate times for the boat.
 

markymark2000

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It seems to me that the obvious solution is for the 2 to run via the ferry terminal - maybe just at appropriate times for the boat.
The issue with that is that in 2026, the ferry has 27 different departure times (yes I went through their timetable. I was bored haha) with times ranging from 1am to 9pm. As such you'd need to either divert all trips to the ferry or you will be having a very messy timetable. You could perhaps go for the most common times which are 11:15 (100 departures at this time in 2026), and 19:15 (165 departures), but if the ferry is late, you will have issues. Dedicated route has the flexibility, local regular scheduled route has the easier to read timetable but would be a waste of time, money and resource diverting for the many hours of the day when there is no ferry.

Never spotted that, looks like, unless it's a mistake??
It's already being cut back in February so only 1 bus per hour continues through to Skem (with the other bus each hour terminating at Ormskirk. Details see below)), so perhaps not completely unlikely. There could be an argument that keeping the 310 extended to Skem would be Merseytravel competing with whoever ends up with the 375/385 as the routes between Ormskirk and Skem are identical.



Service 310 Liverpool to Skelmersdale
Timetable will be revised to run every 30 minutes between Liverpool and Ormskirk with 1 journey per hour extending to Skelmersdale. Evening and Sunday service will remain hourly between Liverpool and Skelmersdale.
 
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gka472l

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The issue with that is that in 2026, the ferry has 27 different departure times (yes I went through their timetable. I was bored haha) with times ranging from 1am to 9pm. As such you'd need to either divert all trips to the ferry or you will be having a very messy timetable. You could perhaps go for the most common times which are 11:15 (100 departures at this time in 2026), and 19:15 (165 departures), but if the ferry is late, you will have issues. Dedicated route has the flexibility, local regular scheduled route has the easier to read timetable but would be a waste of time, money and resource diverting for the many hours of the day when there is no ferry.


It's already being cut back in February so only 1 bus per hour continues through to Skem (with the other bus each hour terminating at Ormskirk), so perhaps not completely unlikely. There could be an argument that keeping the 310 extended to Skem would be Merseytravel competing with whoever ends up with the 375/385 as the routes between Ormskirk and Skem are identical.

Wasn't aware of the 310 being cut back, every chance it's correct then......
 

gka472l

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Announcement due on the franchise winner due tomorrow morning (presume both Wirral & St Helens), and seemingly Stagecoach E400MMC 10836 has gone into 'METRO' livery, for the press conference so I'm told. I'd have thought that LCRCA would have made sure one of the brand new electrics ordered by them, either the E400EV's or Electroliners would be in attendance, which could well happen.....
 
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JasonL

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Will be interesting to see the electroliner, since there seems to be very few photos of them.
I think they're all due for Wirral.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Announcement due on the franchise winner due tomorrow morning (presume both Wirral & St Helens), and seemingly Stagecoach E400MMC 10836 has gone into 'METRO' livery, for the press conference so I'm told. I'd have thought that LCRCA would have made sure one of the brand new electrics ordered by them, either the E400EV's or Electroliners would be in attendance, which could well happen.....
I don't know about the EV's as they're still in ADL's yard in Falkirk and that's a great distance away not sure if they would have enough charge to get there and back since none of the depots in the LCR are electrified.
 

py_megapixel

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What is the significance of which company wins which tender?

In Manchester it doesn't affect much, with the private operating companies only existing to provide a legally required (but not, in my opinion, especially necessary) layer of bureaucracy between the Combined Authority and bus operations. It certainly makes no difference as a passenger.
 

Leyland Bus

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York
What is the significance of which company wins which tender?

In Manchester it doesn't affect much, with the private operating companies only existing to provide a legally required (but not, in my opinion, especially necessary) layer of bureaucracy between the Combined Authority and bus operations. It certainly makes no difference as a passenger.
I think its more enthusiast curiosity than significance...
 

gka472l

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Will be interesting to see the electroliner, since there seems to be very few photos of them

Only seen a couple myself, and only at the Wrightbus factory, which is where I suspect they're being stored......

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I think they're all due for Wirral.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


I don't know about the EV's as they're still in ADL's yard in Falkirk and that's a great distance away not sure if they would have enough charge to get there and back since none of the depots in the LCR are electrified.

I suspect one is living at ADL Anston, as the South Yorkshire CA has had one of the Merseyside E400EV's on demonstration twice now.....for those on FB, linked below from ADL's FB page



HTH
 
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Djgr

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The Isle of Man ferry terminal bus was always rammed when I used it. And of course it would be: the Isle of Man to Liverpool ferry route is predominantly foot passengers, and it is a long old walk from the new ferry terminal into the city centre.
It's not that far if you've read the memo about leaving the kitchen sink at home. 15 Google minutes from the Pier Head.

I do agree though that there will be ongoing signficant regeneration between there and the Everton stadium and decent, stable public transport should be factored in from Day 1.
 

mattb7tl

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The Isle of Man ferry terminal bus was always rammed when I used it. And of course it would be: the Isle of Man to Liverpool ferry route is predominantly foot passengers, and it is a long old walk from the new ferry terminal into the city centre.

Given the regeneration occurring in the ten streets area and around the new Isle of Man ferry terminal, I'd say a regular bus along that stretch of road is badly needed. It'll be interesting to see if this is replacing the 2 and, if so, whether they will take the opportunity to extend the route to somewhere like Bootle New Strand where it would be more useful.
Most of the time, a low frequency service like that is basically set up to fail it is not usable enough to attract or grow demand. And on a corridor like the ferry terminal, a lot of trips are short, so if the bus is not frequent it is instantly uncompetitive with simply walking.

Both times heading to the Isle of Man, it was quicker to walk from Lime Street (or get as close as possible by other bus services and do the last 10–15 minutes on foot) than hang around waiting. If they want this to genuinely shift people especially foot passengers with luggage it needs to be “turn up and go” frequent to have a chance at gaining demand.
 

markymark2000

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Most of the time, a low frequency service like that is basically set up to fail it is not usable enough to attract or grow demand. And on a corridor like the ferry terminal, a lot of trips are short, so if the bus is not frequent it is instantly uncompetitive with simply walking.

Both times heading to the Isle of Man, it was quicker to walk from Lime Street (or get as close as possible by other bus services and do the last 10–15 minutes on foot) than hang around waiting. If they want this to genuinely shift people especially foot passengers with luggage it needs to be “turn up and go” frequent to have a chance at gaining demand.
Just to clarify, you want a turn up and go frequency for a bus to the ferry terminal, so that people can catch a once per day ferry?

Have you really thought this through!?!?!?
 

Tetchytyke

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Most of the time, a low frequency service like that is basically set up to fail it is not usable enough to attract or grow demand.
The bus meets the ferries. My response was to the person saying the bus to the ferry was pointless.

The 2, or whatever will run down Great Howard Street, is different. I’d say 2bph is about right; there is gentrification around the ten streets area, but it is still mainly light commercial or industrial.
It's not that far if you've read the memo about leaving the kitchen sink at home. 15 Google minutes from the Pier Head.
Plus another 15 up to the Lime Street end of town.

I do walk it when the weather is ok, but a 30 minute walk isn’t so much fun when we get the north west’s famous liquid sunshine.
 

TheSel

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Arriva staff at Birkenhead (and I assume at St Helens) have now been notified of the winning bidders of the franchise for their areas.

Extract from the notice:

1769160567437.png
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Yesterday, I dropped a note to a friend and I said that I thought Go Ahead and Stagecoach would lead the way; couldn't see Arriva retaining, CDG have enough to worry about with Manchester, and First's hurdle rates would be too high/tech response too low.

The irony that Stagecoach were most vehemently against franchising yet seem to be adroit in winning work!
 

Steve440

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Yesterday, I dropped a note to a friend and I said that I thought Go Ahead and Stagecoach would lead the way; couldn't see Arriva retaining, CDG have enough to worry about with Manchester, and First's hurdle rates would be too high/tech response too low.

The irony that Stagecoach were most vehemently against franchising yet seem to be adroit in winning work!
Stagecoach is a very different animal than it was under Brian Souter. I think they are happy to have a guaranteed income flow these days.
 

Fokx

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Stagecoach winning St Helens is an interesting one and might (partially) explain the closure of the Jackson Street paint shop seeing as they'll still have their one across at Rock Ferry
 

CN12 AWU

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Stagecoach winning St Helens is an interesting one and might (partially) explain the closure of the Jackson Street paint shop seeing as they'll still have their one across at Rock Ferry
Surly Jackson Street has the bigger paint shop however
 

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