TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains

[crosscity]

398020 is on its way from Old Dalby to Pengam. It arrived at Kings Norton yard last night and will be moved to Pengam today t/t by 20007 and 20205.
Today's (Wed) working is 6Q38 (10:00 from Kings Norton yard).

The tram was actually taken to Pengam by HST power cars 43467 and 43468 and NOT the twenties!

 

[leomartin125]

The tram was actually taken to Pengam by HST power cars 43467 and 43468 and NOT the twenties!

And I'm intrigued why a fully formed train would be changed overnight, does anyone know why the 20s were removed?

 

[VR494]

The current situation regarding the 398’s is unfortunately not looking very promising.

To date, there are no units that have been approved for service, and those that have been out on test are failing with faults constantly, resetting the clocks back to zero.

There is no driver training taking place, and the course has not even been completed or signed off by the relevant teams. A pilot is planned however with ASLEF taking part.

There are many issues with them, and the Welsh government has now even lowered the number of hours needed for approval to try and get them out. And they can’t even achieve that fault free!

To give you some examples:

1. Windscreens needed changing as they did not comply with railway standards
2. Headlights did not meet railway standards so required yellow stickers
3. Issues with braking and developing constant wheel flats
4. Brake control unit faults
5. A coupler caught fire after coupling up and various coupling issues
6. Battery capacity too weak and only lasts for around 4-6 miles (10 minutes) Will go into limp mode capped at 3mph thereafter
7. DOO cameras upside down on the monitors when coupled in multiple
8. Battery’s not charging on the OLE
9. Software modifications needed
10. Toilets are not finished or installed due to no budget left
11. Simulator for training at Taff Well depot currently faulty and out of action
12. Rain water ingress onto electrics in the roof, seals need replacing
13. Stadler A team left and gone to Germany due to major contract leaving little support
14. Issues reading and interacting with track based beacons, bought cheap ones to cut cost resulting in ADD’s
15. Unable to be recused on the network at current
16. Issues with timings on and off Taff’s well depot due to the curve being too tight, meaning they will have issues starting service up
17. Unable to see length of some platforms on cameras due to curve and senior management want DCO of the doors
18. Run out of capital

The team are desperately hoping for a miracle to get at-least one out for May TT, however there is no increase in service from May this year. And until all these are in service no 231’s will be going to mainline either.

Be prepared for a lot of cancellations to services, especially due to more trains than usually needing repairs at the same time.

It’s a gut wrenching situation but they may not come out at all, the product is not fit for purpose.

 

[tfw756rider]

Gosh, I didn't realise that they had anywhere near that many problems. A lot to get fixed.

 

[VR494]

Gosh, I didn't realise that they had anywhere near that many problems. A lot to get fixed.

It’s sadly the situation they are in.

At the time of purchase the plan was to have a fully electrified CVL. Due to budget they went with a hybrid system, and it’s killed the project. These 398’s needed pure juice!

Daily there are issues with the OLE, especially when it gets to capacity and trips, and luckily the 756’s can switch over to diesel/battery mode. These can’t do that.

The track beacons are also set for lower read speeds, they went for cheap ones! And when travelling near 55-60mph the reader fails to register resulting in MRD/ADD activations.

The majority of the 756 are also having battery issues now and it’s not uncommon to see one isolated too.

It’s going to be interesting year, especially with the Welsh assembly elections looming.

 

[WirralLine]

I did see internally that one failed on test earlier in the week and caused some disruption to services as a result.

The current situation regarding the 398’s is unfortunately not looking very promising.

To date, there are no units that have been approved for service, and those that have been out on test are failing with faults constantly, resetting the clocks back to zero.

There is no driver training taking place, and the course has not even been completed or signed off by the relevant teams. A pilot is planned however with ASLEF taking part.

There are many issues with them, and the Welsh government has now even lowered the number of hours needed for approval to try and get them out. And they can’t even achieve that fault free!

To give you some examples:

1. Windscreens needed changing as they did not comply with railway standards
2. Headlights did not meet railway standards so required yellow stickers
3. Issues with braking and developing constant wheel flats
4. Brake control unit faults
5. A coupler caught fire after coupling up and various coupling issues
6. Battery capacity too weak and only lasts for around 4-6 miles (10 minutes) Will go into limp mode capped at 3mph thereafter
7. DOO cameras upside down on the monitors when coupled in multiple
8. Battery’s not charging on the OLE
9. Software modifications needed
10. Toilets are not finished or installed due to no budget left
11. Simulator for training at Taff Well depot currently faulty and out of action
12. Rain water ingress onto electrics in the roof, seals need replacing
13. Stadler A team left and gone to Germany due to major contract leaving little support
14. Issues reading and interacting with track based beacons, bought cheap ones to cut cost resulting in ADD’s
15. Unable to be recused on the network at current
16. Issues with timings on and off Taff’s well depot due to the curve being too tight, meaning they will have issues starting service up
17. Unable to see length of some platforms on cameras due to curve and senior management want DCO of the doors
18. Run out of capital

The team are desperately hoping for a miracle to get at-least one out for May TT, however there is no increase in service from May this year. And until all these are in service no 231’s will be going to mainline either.

Be prepared for a lot of cancellations to services, especially due to more trains than usually needing repairs at the same time.

It’s a gut wrenching situation but they may not come out at all, the product is not fit for purpose.

Sounds like merseyrails 777s, but theyre out anyway

 

[Envoy]

It was never planned that they would have toilets.

 

[Towers]

It was never planned that they would have toilets.

Are they now having them retrofitted?

 

[berneyarms]

I think that the poster means additional toilets at stations.

 

[Towers]

I think that the poster means additional toilets at stations.

Ah, that would make more sense - it would be a tad strange for a manufacturer to deliver unfinished units!

 

[AdamWW]

At the time of purchase the plan was to have a fully electrified CVL. Due to budget they went with a hybrid system, and it’s killed the project. These 398’s needed pure juice!

I can't see how the 398s could have been orderded before the franchise was awarded to Keolis Amey.

So am I misunderstanding, or are you saying that when the franchise was awarded it was on the basis of full electrification and stock was ordered on that basis, then subsequently for budgetary reasons the plan was changed to a discontinuous scheme?

 

[fadster]

There's a 6F40 on it's way from Kings Norton to Dalby. Is this bringing another Tram up to Asfordby Test Centre or just barrier wagons for another drag back to Taff Wells?

 

[EveningStarr]

Do you have a source for all this? And which of those issues have now been resolved, do you know?

I'd imagine the toilet construction will continue once April's budget arrives.
The battery issues are particularly concerning, especially if minor disruption could extend the journey time just enough to cause more problems. They'd certainly struggle on the 'superloop' diagrams between Llandaff and Ninian Park via Cardiff.
Even the sceptic I am didn't anticipate such numerous design quality problems!

The 756s aren't perfect, but their reliability has proven decent enough over the past few months. Shame we couldn't have got more of them and keep the trams only for Hirwaun to the Bay via Llandaff.

 

[fadster]

Re 6F40. Answered my own question. 2 HST power cars back to back with the 2 barrier wagons. These trams do appear to be going back to Taff Wells "wholesale". Is that 2 this week and 1 last week? Either testing completed or given the list of issues posted above, someone is giving up testing, gathering in the assets, before calling in the lawyers!

 

[VR494]

I can't see how the 398s could have been orderded before the franchise was awarded to Keolis Amey.

So am I misunderstanding, or are you saying that when the franchise was awarded it was on the basis of full electrification and stock was ordered on that basis, then subsequently for budgetary reasons the plan was changed to a discontinuous scheme?

Correct, the current set up has been modestly modelled around the class 756. The beacons work, however during rainfall and on bends struggle to be read.

At certain locations TSR’s have been implemented and beacons doubled to try and combat this issue.

The 756’s had a modification to the ASDO system to read them. However still regularly have issues in service with pantograph failing to lower resulting in ADD/MRD.

The current OLE can also only support so many trains at one time, and we also regularly get primary voltage too low coming up on the TCMS. There’s going to be issue running 4 trains an hour under it because it cannot take that many trains.

Due to clearance from bridges etc not being sufficient most of the OLE has permanent earthed sections, as they operate along beacons open and close the VCB, this sometimes doesn’t work and causes flashing and bangs and trips the system out.

Sella controls are the manufacturing team responsible for the beacons, which have read speeds set for around 45mph.
The 756’s came with a balise system built in, however TFW and Amey went with the ASDO style beacons to save money.

The chance of getting a 398 around the city line during a delay is currently an issue, the battery could go and leave the unit stranded. To rescue one is also an issue, and coupling up is a nightmare and requires a fitter. The cab door on one side means crew changes will also be limited to certain locations.

There is no backup generator to charge like the 756, and it’s possible these may only even work to Cardiff Bay when they do come out. Even at Pontypridd if the wires were to fail a 398 could not even make it to Treherbert on battery where a 756 could. Internally there is a plan being developed for stranded 398’s, and hopefully you’d be at a standstill near a station.

Honestly, if one was to be stranded on a hot day with no battery, full and standing I think the fire service may need to be brought in. This due to the fact the saloons have limited ventilation and you’d need to open the windows, only the cabs have air con.

The toilets on platforms are not finished and budget available is limited due to it having to cover the whole CVL. These are not being installed between Cardiff and Pontypridd so you’ll have no toilet facilities there either. Need to go, it’ll be Tonypandy after Cardiff Queen street or Abercynon. Pontypridd is a walk over to the down platform.

Last week 2 units failed due to water ingress onto brake control units, there’s also issues with them running in multiple and they don’t seem to like it.

The 756’s also run in Battery/overhead mode so do not use the full electric mode on the OLE. As they drive along they just recharge the batteries. When on sections of discontinuous OLE run on battery. When th charge falls below 30% the generator will start running.

Sadly the all above is correct and form reliable sources. There are many other issues, but I’d rather not post them on here to protect identities.

 

[Envoy]

I find it incredible that the 398 saloons do not have air conditioning. Even Cardiff’s newest buses come with air con - just a shame that the staff don't know how to work its and the buses go around with open windows and the air flow fan is often off.

So, if all the problems mentioned by VR494 persists - what then?

The delays in introducing the 398’s also mean that the 231’s can't move to the Ebbw Vale > Maesteg route as well as the Cheltenhams meaning that they will have to keep 197’s or even sprinters. That being so, it means that the Cambrian must soldier on with 158’s - with usually failed air con.

 

[AdamWW]

As for 398s I wonder how daunting that list is when compared to other new fleets entering service. Needs the view from someone who has knowledge of say 197 introduction and 398 introduction. How much can be assumed to just be "teething problems"

I certainly don't think it's unusual for stock to have significant teething problems and then go on to provide reliable service once the issues have been straightened out. So fingers crossed...

Question. I thought the 398s being tram trains were restricted to a limited number of network rail routes due to their smaller flanges (to suit shallow rail slots used in areas of on street running). So how come they can be moved from the Midlands to Cardiff by rail ?. They were delivered by road ?.

Some certainly were delivered by road, but I think not all.

So far as I know they don't currently have flanges designed for street running. I'm not aware of any modifications to trackwork having been carried out to accommodate them.

I find it incredible that the 398 saloons do not have air conditioning.

I'm a bit surprised too.
This Railway Gazette article (from 22) mentinons the lack of toilets but says:

The air-conditioning design is being used on a tram train for the first time, and aims to offer better air circulation and lower energy use than previous arrangements.

Maybe it means just in the cabs but it doesn't seem to say that.

 

[Envoy]

It does not look like the saloons have windows that open. Surely this means that they do have air con?

 

[VR494]

It does not look like the saloons have windows that open. Surely this means that they do have air con?

They are fitted with pull down windows, the saloons have heating control similar to an ADL bus product. The cabs have an air con unit for the driver. During the summer last year they were like a greenhouse!

 

[Envoy]

They are fitted with pull down windows, the saloons have heating control similar to an ADL bus product. The cabs have an air con unit for the driver. During the summer last year they were like a greenhouse!

Yikes! Just think what they will be like in a heatwave fully loaded.

Whatever made them think that they could not have air conditioning in these new tram-trains? I think a lot of people in the valleys will be moaning about these 398’s and wondering why they could not just keep the FLIRT trains?

 

[VR494]

Yikes! Just think what they will be like in a heatwave fully loaded.

Whatever made them think that they could not have air conditioning in these new tram-trains? I think a lot of people in the valleys will be moaning about these 398’s and wondering why they could not just keep the FLIRT trains?

The flirts are fantasic units, and customers love them. The feeling on the ground is they made a mistake going for these, but too much tax payer's money has been thrown at it now to turn back. Whether or not they can get one to the hours required fault free is another story.

The interiors of them are quite nice though and have a very spacious feel, a bendy bus would be a good comparison. Talking to a colleague who is testing them, the acceleration is rapid.

The interior linked below:

 

[Woolos 22]

It look like the new members of the welsh parliament will not be able to travel to the senedd on the first day they are there.

 

[Daniel Boone]

I'm lost for words over the fact that they don't have air conditioning.

 

[slowroad]

I'm lost for words over the fact that they don't have air conditioning.

Stadler think they do. Their website says they “have air conditioned compartments”:

https://www.stadlerrail.com/api/docs/x/4fd9bdcae0/citylink_transport-for-wales_en.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com

 

[Daniel Boone]

Stadler think they do.

https://www.stadlerrail.com/api/docs/x/4fd9bdcae0/citylink_transport-for-wales_en.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com

Well that's a slight relief. Thanks for the link.

 

[VR494]

Stadler think they do.

https://www.stadlerrail.com/api/docs/x/4fd9bdcae0/citylink_transport-for-wales_en.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com

They do yes, but only the driver's cab. The saloon is a thermostatic control heating system like a bus. Will aim for around 18 degrees.

 

[Daniel Boone]

They do yes, but only the driver's cab. The saloon is a thermostatic control heating system like a bus. Will aim for around 18 degrees.

So, speaking to a layman. It has heating but no cooling?

 

[slowroad]

They do yes, but only the driver's cab. The saloon is a thermostatic control heating system like a bus. Will aim for around 18 degrees.

Well , you may know, but that is not what Stadler say.

 

[Snow1964]

Or the Cambrian gets its 197s, and the 158s are held onto for back fill elsewhere.

There is now a tender for class 158 transition and redelivery maintenance from 1 June 2026 to 31 Dec 2027. (19 months) covering 44 vehicles plus spares (TfW had 24 units, 48 vehicles)

Full details in the 150 and 158 withdrawal thread

 

[VR494]

So, speaking to a layman. It has heating but no cooling?

The saloons are heated up to a pre-determined temparture and cuts out. on the 756 this is 21 degrees, and is fed from vents near the doors at floor level. The driver is able to +2 or -2 the system on TCMS, but the guards have no control over it.

Well , you may know, but that is not what Stadler say.

I was on 398028 in the summer during test, that's all I'll say is passengers will be very disapointed compared to the 756. We had all the saloon windows down and it was very warm indeed.