Could Northern get additional stock?

[Anvil1984]

Presumably it's the TfW 158s that are of real interest, which via a cascade could release pairs of 150s from the existing fleet to allow the 769s to be scrapped.

I’m going to guess plan A was

TfW 158s to Northern (Heaton) releasing a number of Heaton 156s to the North West to do as they wish (Heaton would still need some 156s for Cumbrian Coast diagrams and a couple of Tyne Valley jobs to keep crew knowledge and get them to depot) . No additional crew training required.. nice and simple

HOWEVER IT now looks like TfW want to keep hold of their 158s for the next couple of years at least so a plan B is being hatched (maybe)

 

[D365]

WSP is the least of the issues, the Northern 156s were only fitted in the last couple of years with auto sanding just installed this year I believe. It’ll be more the general condition and availability of parts which is is the bigger issue…

WSP and the associated auto sanding modification is small fry compared to the corrosion repairs that have been undertaken on 15x vehicles. Some units have been sent away for months at a time.

I’m lead to believe that the four Angel and one Porterbrook ex Anglia/EMR 156s are in the worst condition of all.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

The main thing that confuses me about this order is why they aren't going more aggressively in on batteries.

The new main type of trains for northern are Multi Mode (Battery,Electric and diesel) most will probably be converted to battery one the infrastructure allows

 

[Snow1964]

The main thing that confuses me about this order is why they aren't going more aggressively in on batteries.

The new main type of trains for northern are Multi Mode (Battery,Electric and diesel) most will probably be converted to battery one the infrastructure allows

None of the infrastructure is really set up for battery trains, and I will explain what I mean. Ideally if using BEMUs the approach to a mainline is wired (so if a train is waiting for junction signal it can pan up) so really need few hundred metres before junction signal wired. As junction points are generally lower speed don't want to be coasting and not accelerating clear of junction whilst changing systems. So ideally first kilometre of branch is wired to get some speed up on mains, before using batteries.

At the moment many trains would have to change on the mainline, where track use is busier, not in ideal locations. There are a few locations where bay platforms aren't electrified so possibly got to change twice, and have little chance to recharge the batteries.

Obviously doing these short bits of infrastructure costs money, but buying and adding diesel generators also costs money. They are also lot more time consuming and expensive to maintain, and as GWR is currently discovering a regular source of failure that is very time consuming to rectify. So there is a strong case to avoid buying the diesel sets, sticking to BEMU (rather than multi mode) and spending the saved money on short bits of wiring.

The various costings tend not to be interchangeable because don't really factor in big picture, each part is in its own little cost silo.

For completeness although some routes are currently beyond range of batteries that isn't really a problem until 2040s if cascaded some of the newer diesel units that run on lines that could be BEMU without infrastructure mods.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

None of the infrastructure is really set up for battery trains, and I will explain what I mean. Ideally if using BEMUs the approach to a mainline is wired (so if a train is waiting for junction signal it can pan up) so really need few hundred metres before junction signal wired. As junction points are generally lower speed don't want to be coasting and not accelerating clear of junction whilst changing systems. So ideally first kilometre of branch is wired to get some speed up on mains, before using batteries.

At the moment many trains would have to change on the mainline, where track use is busier, not in ideal locations. There are a few locations where bay platforms aren't electrified so possibly got to change twice, and have little chance to recharge the batteries.

Obviously doing these short bits of infrastructure costs money, but buying and adding diesel generators also costs money. They are also lot more time consuming and expensive to maintain, and as GWR is currently discovering a regular source of failure that is very time consuming to rectify. So there is a strong case to avoid buying the diesel sets, sticking to BEMU (rather than multi mode) and spending the saved money on short bits of wiring.

The various costings tend not to be interchangeable because don't really factor in big picture, each part is in its own little cost silo.

For completeness although some routes are currently beyond range of batteries that isn't really a problem until 2040s if cascaded some of the newer diesel units that run on lines that could be BEMU without infrastructure mods.

As long as there is electrification at the start and end, the battery’s can charge on layover time, this may not always be case, so if theirs low electrification, MMUs will be needed

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m going to guess that the MMUs are for Windermere/Barrow. Or even the Hope Valley.

There are loads of Northern routes that are part-wired for which these would be suitable:

Barrow/Windermere
Southport
Buxton
S&C/Bentham

Arguably the Hope Valley isn't really one as only a tiny part of it is wired, though the units would be able to pick up some charge while laying over at the Piccadilly end. Though they could still operate it on diesel.

I'm sure there are more, plus if the North East got some you could run them to Chathill though that would be acting as an EMU, the reason an EMU isn't used now, in my understanding, is just that the relevant depot doesn't have any, and having just one for this service would be the ultimate micro fleet.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

though the units would be able to pick up some charge while laying over at the Piccadilly end.

Although they really don't have a long dwell there, it's only about 15 minutes (often less).
The MMUs will definitely end up on routes with limited wiring (like the 755s already do), but I'd imagine the Hope Valley won't be the first in line.

 

[py_megapixel]

Although they really don't have a long dwell there, it's only about 15 minutes (often less).
The MMUs will definitely end up on routes with limited wiring (like the 755s already do), but I'd imagine the Hope Valley won't be the first in line.

I second that. No reason to do the Hope Valley first given the number of diagrams with more electrified mileage and older stock that needs replacing first!

 

[Anvil1984]

, plus if the North East got some you could run them to Chathill though that would be acting as an EMU, the reason an EMU isn't used now, in my understanding, is just that the relevant depot doesn't have any, and having just one for this service would be the ultimate micro fleet.

Sorry going to be pedantic but you’d probably need 2. One to run the service and a second to rescue it if things go wrong.

The main reason as is not just because Heaton Depot doesn’t have EMUs but because the service bleeds into diagrams which need DMUs so and I don’t think Network Rail would be too chuffed in having a unit block a platform from 0820 to 1714

 

[Class 323 Fan]

is there any rolling stock actually available that’s suitable for Northern at the minute? As Northern are currently looking for more DMUs, they need to find some soon otherwise it could lead to worse overcrowding from Short formations and less frequency on busy routes.

As Transport For Wales plan on keeping their Class 158s for a few more years, is there anything that can be done to the time-being?

Is Northern actually making a “Plan B”?

 

[Michael10]

I’m pretty sure the only free DMUs atm are the 221s from avanti that are in storage atm, as 5 car units if they put them on Cumbria-Man airport it would free up more 195s and they’d be suitable on that route asw as most of the stations on that route would hold a 5 car train.
It’s hypothetical and probably won’t happen but I don’t think it would be a bad short term solution while they source newer stock etc

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m pretty sure the only free DMUs atm are the 221s from avanti that are in storage atm, as 5 car units if they put them on Cumbria-Man airport it would free up more 195s and they’d be suitable on that route asw as most of the stations on that route would hold a 5 car train.
It’s hypothetical and probably won’t happen but I don’t think it would be a bad short term solution while they source newer stock etc

TfW 158s are probably the most likely incomer once they are available.

 

[D365]

As Transport For Wales plan on keeping their Class 158s for a few more years, is there anything that can be done to the time-being?

Other than reading into maintenance agreements, where has this been explicitly stated?

 

[Class 323 Fan]

Other than reading into maintenance agreements, where has this been explicitly stated?

From the TFW Website

Refer to the last sentence/paragraph

Introducing our new trains: frequently asked questions

We’ve now introduced over 60 of our brand new trains to service – over 40% of the final total. More and more of our services are being operated by new trains, and this will continue to increase over the rest of this year.

news.tfw.wales

Theres 20 more 197s yet to be introduced, so as others have said in this forum, its expected for them to go in mid-late 2027

 

[D365]

From the TFW Website

Refer to the last sentence/paragraph

Introducing our new trains: frequently asked questions

We’ve now introduced over 60 of our brand new trains to service – over 40% of the final total. More and more of our services are being operated by new trains, and this will continue to increase over the rest of this year.

news.tfw.wales

Cited below as per forum rules:

The Class 158s will continue to operate on the Birmingham-Holyhead/Pwllheli/Aberystwyth services until the introduction of Class 197s on those services, after which they will be returned to their owner.

... I don't see a specific timeframe stated here.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

Cited below as per forum rules:

... I don't see a specific timeframe stated here.

After checking, there's 26 more class 197s to be introduced, as I've previously stated, they should leave TFW around mid-late 2027

There is a timeframe of when they will be returned, but I can't find the link at the moment.

 

[Essex Express]

A cascade of DMU needs to happen. So one option is build another batch of class 802 for TPE as a replacement for the 51 class 185 this will give TPE a more standard fleet. Drop 51 three car units in to northern would be big up lift for passengers. Then start removing non standard units. So class 155 and 170 all small batches of units. Then start pushing class 158 on 156 routes etc. All will start to remove the sprinter fleet. Then the class 170 are sent to East Midlands and remove there class 158 again makes there fleet more standard. There class 158 move to Northern and replace the same number of class 156. This slow is replacing non standard fleets in different operators.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

There are loads of Northern routes that are part-wired for which these would be suitable:

Barrow/Windermere
Southport
Buxton
S&C/Bentham

Arguably the Hope Valley isn't really one as only a tiny part of it is wired, though the units would be able to pick up some charge while laying over at the Piccadilly end. Though they could still operate it on diesel.

I'm sure there are more, plus if the North East got some you could run them to Chathill though that would be acting as an EMU, the reason an EMU isn't used now, in my understanding, is just that the relevant depot doesn't have any, and having just one for this service would be the ultimate micro fleet.

Barrow/Windermere would suit BEMUs, especially if Stadler product was chosen, as they have great battery range.

 

[The exile]

I'm sure there are more, plus if the North East got some you could run them to Chathill though that would be acting as an EMU, the reason an EMU isn't used now, in my understanding, is just that the relevant depot doesn't have any, and having just one for this service would be the ultimate micro fleet.

Is it not also the case that the turn backs used aren’t electrified? (May be at Morpeth rather than Belford but that’s the one in use all day!)

 

[D365]

Barrow/Windermere would suit BEMUs, especially if Stadler product was chosen, as they have great battery range.

It is already known that Windermere is (one of?) the intended routes for the Class 781s.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

It is already known that Windermere is (one of?) the intended routes for the Class 781s.

Not what I’m aware of, current speculation suggests the MMUs will be on that route, the BEMUs are for the MAN - BUX line

 

[3RDGEN]

Northern has the prototype units (from 1984), some early 150/0 (from 1985) and the first part of 150/2 build (from 1986). Some of these are already over 40 years old. So not having any replacements on order (yet) seems bonkers.

Northern 156s date from 1987-88. (The build continued into 1989, but 1989 build ones are in Scotland)

For completeness the small fleet of 155s were built in 1987-88

The early 15x fleets are basic DMU's and hence will run "forever", like the better first generation units, the time and money being spent on corrosion repairs tells you they will remain sometime yet to repay that outlay. The other reason they will last is because they have too as there is no other option beyond cutting services.

Given the current published tender timescales Northern will not start replacing the early 15x fleets in significant numbers until 2032 so everyone knows that and can plan for it. The scrapping of the TfW 150's has released parts to increase the spares floats for the remaining fleets.

 

[rattyben]

The early 15x fleets are basic DMU's and hence will run "forever", like the better first generation units, the time and money being spent on corrosion repairs tells you they will remain sometime yet to repay that outlay. The other reason they will last is because they have too as there is no other option beyond cutting services.

Given the current published tender timescales Northern will not start replacing the early 15x fleets in significant numbers until 2032 so everyone knows that and can plan for it. The scrapping of the TfW 150's has released parts to increase the spares floats for the remaining fleets.

Having spares and parts is one thing, growth on lines where 2 car units are being utilised is an entirely different problem.

They will run out of units to service the growth, growth they (Northern) are targeting.

What we have now is an overcrowded service, that plus corrosion issues, issues with 769 and 195 units and yes a lack of spare diesel units sounds like a problem just waiting to happen.

Whilst I get cost, training issues etc.. all this work should have been done 5 years ago. They should be looking at intermediate solutions in the meantime, instead handing Lumo a fleet of diesel units and retiring others they should have been handed to TPE to exchange for 185 fleet that could’ve been sent to Northern.

I don’t know the technical and training issues around this but what it doesn’t look like is a joined up railway thinking in a joined up way, it’s every TOC for themselves.

There are solutions I’m sure but is the entire railway sitting down and talking to each other on how to solve it or working in isolation, blocked by legacy regulations?

There’s a problem coming down the road for Northern and “we don’t have enough diesel units” or “we can make these units last with spares” isn’t going to cut it for the travelling public.

 

[A60stock]

Why aren't Northern taking on any withdrawn 150s from TFW? Surely this would help to double up or even triple up units

 

[Snow1964]

Having spares and parts is one thing, growth on lines where 2 car units are being utilised is an entirely different problem.

Why aren't Northern taking on any withdrawn 150s from TFW? Surely this would help to double up or even triple up units

They have already split some 2car units, and bodged some 3car sets (although wastefully with third cab that is dead space as far as passenger is concerned).
If look at the number of spare 150 vehicles from Wales as a fraction of number of diesel vehicles in Northern fleet it is token percentage, too low to be a serious strategy to cover growth.

There’s a problem coming down the road for Northern and “we don’t have enough diesel units” or “we can make these units last with spares” isn’t going to cut it for the travelling public.

Yes, can hardly say we didn't foresee a problem with getting parts for 1980s trains that stopped being made 40 years ago. And we (Northern) didn't order any replacement trains to be ready by time parts ran out.

It will look even worse if a journalist publishes a story saying, still dithered on train order, even when European railways were ordering and taking up train building capacity. Smacks of can't see the wood for the trees

 

[rattyben]

They have already split some 2car units, and bodged some 3car sets (although wastefully with third cab that is dead space as far as passenger is concerned).
If look at the number of spare 150 vehicles from Wales as a fraction of number of diesel vehicles in Northern fleet it is token percentage, too low to be a serious strategy to cover growth.


Yes, can hardly say we didn't foresee a problem with getting parts for 1980s trains that stopped being made 40 years ago. And we (Northern) didn't order any replacement trains to be ready by time parts ran out.

It will look even worse if a journalist publishes a story saying, still dithered on train order, even when European railways were ordering and taking up train building capacity. Smacks of can't see the wood for the trees

Exactly. I really just see another 2018 debacle coming down the road for them and this time they’re be no blaming Network Rail.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2026 ==

Why aren't Northern taking on any withdrawn 150s from TFW? Surely this would help to double up or even triple up units

I mean they should be looking at any diesel fleet they can get, I mean they’ve previously used class 180s temporarily to cover so why not some voyagers or the fleet Chiltern is offloading, the HSTs being disposed of by GWR?

If we are to have a joined up railway we shouldn’t be thinking of who owns what trains, who’s leasing them but what does the rail network have and where would it be best placed.

 

[3RDGEN]

Why aren't Northern taking on any withdrawn 150s from TFW? Surely this would help to double up or even triple up units

It's been claimed Porterbrook wouldn't lease the units since they have the same corrosion issues the other 150 fleets have so they stripped them for spares and scrapped the remains, it is possible that policy could change however you are still going to need to spend big money on them. Presumably they are awaiting the release of the TfW 158's which would be a better option but for now TfW aren't releasing them so there's little other option, as such TfW 150's may become an option.

 

[Bevan Price]

Although they are still good trains, Class 323 are over 30 years old. When can we expect their replacement to be considered ?

 

[Snow1964]

Although they are still good trains, Class 323 are over 30 years old. When can we expect their replacement to be considered ?

There are trains that are 5-10 years older, than still haven't had replacements ordered. Been lots of talk, some tenders, but no actual orders placed.

Northern 150/1 are almost exactly 40 years old, and to date no replacements have been ordered, even when (if ?) an order is eventually made, might be another 4-6 years before the new trains actually enter service.

But I understand the question, in a normal world would start planning the replacements around the 30-33 year old point, with delivery range confirmed before they reach 40 years old

 

[Stephen42]

Although they are still good trains, Class 323 are over 30 years old. When can we expect their replacement to be considered ?

The current tender is split into a framework agreement over 8 years and a call off for the first units. Phase 1 is replacement of 150, 155, 166, 769 and new EMU services they don't have EMUs for.

There are outline figures for Phase 2 which includes EMU fleet size numbers matching the 323 and 333 fleets. Phase 2 will be more of the same units as phase 1 just replacing different fleets. The timeline from confirmed order to introduction will be smaller as a result. Northern could order at any point within that 8 year framework.

I'd speculate they'd want phase 1 well under way to avoid replacing all the fleets together. It also allows acting on latest known power supply demands, supply enhancement timelines and battery tech capabilities rather than making a decision this year for trains that will be constructed after all the phase 1 units are built.