London to Paris mid 1970's question

[richieb1971]

I spoke to my mother who did a trip to Paris in the mid 70's (1976 ish) who stated that she caught a train from London direct to Paris without getting off, but there was no tunnel then and she doesn't remember ever getting on board a boat.

I have to assume she was asleep as it was probably an overnighter. So how did it work back then? Did they load the train on a ship whilst passengers were asleep and they woke up the next morning in Paris unawares of the logistics of how it worked?

 

[hexagon789]

The Night Ferry was an overnight sleeper from London to Paris (and Brussels).

Unlike the Golden Arrow, a daytime Pullman service between London & Paris, the carriages on the Night Ferry did go across the Channel on a Ferry - albeit only the sleeping cars and some fourgon(s) (baggage vans) - seperate seating and catering vehicles were used on opposite shores.

It finished in 1980.

If they did indeed get a train straight over without having to disembark, board a ferry on foot, then board a seperate train on the Continent, then the Night Ferry is the only possibility.

 

[Acathater]

the Night Ferry - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Ferry

The Night Ferry was an international boat train from London Victoria to Paris Gare du Nord that crossed the English Channel on a train ferry. It ran from 1936 until 1939 when it ceased due to the onset of World War II. It resumed in 1947, ceasing in 1980. It was operated by Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits until 1977 and then British Rail.

 

[richieb1971]

Thanks for the quick responses guys. I never knew such a thing existed. I can tell my mother her memory is still good now. lol.

 

[Gloster]

In May 1976 it was a 22.00 departure from London Victoria, arrive Dover at 23.28 and be loaded on a boat that left at 00.28. The boat arrived at Dunkerque at 05.05 (local time) and left at 05.45 to reach Paris Nord at 09.20.

 

[yorksrob]

There's also an episode of Steptoe and Son, where younger Steptoe is at Victoria attempting to catch the Night Ferry.

Needless to say, he is frustrated by Steptoe senior

 

[telstarbox]

How did they line up the shore side track with the boat track?

 

[The exile]

How did they line up the shore side track with the boat track?

Very carefully (in terms of right/left) - a pivoted “linkspan” could cope with a degree of tidal height difference.

 

[AndrewE]

How did they line up the shore side track with the boat track?

Try googling it! It's called a linkspan and Wikipedia has https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_ferry - and a picture of the 1850 version in Scotland. There are also lots of videos available online... p.s. including a very good one on that Wikipedia page.
It's worth going to see one if you can fit it into a holiday, there aren't many still operating.

 

[Taunton]

Very carefully (in terms of right/left) - a pivoted “linkspan” could cope with a degree of tidal height difference.

Actually Dover was different. The tidal range there is substantial, beyond railway linkspan angles, so an effectively isolated dock was built, with a lock gate, the ship could enter at any tidal stage, the lock gates closed, and a steam-powered shore pumping station adapted the water level to level with the linkspan. At extreme tidal stages it was quite a slow process, somewhat aided by the ship then taking 3 hours to get across to Dunkerque, by which time such a tide would have somewhat abated.

The dock was just inland from Marine station, connected to the sidings there.

Before this investment with the 1930s ships, and fixed timetables, then the linkspans were designed for the median tide position, and ships linked up for an hour or so at this time, different each day, which is how it was done with the initial ships used from Harwich in WW1.

 

[hexagon789]

How did they line up the shore side track with the boat track?

Special locks.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for the quick responses guys. I never knew such a thing existed. I can tell my mother her memory is still good now. lol.

It’s filmed well before your mum’s recollection but there is a good British Tranport Film that features this journey called Link Span.

It’s on you tube. Worth a watch to get a sense of it.

One of the Night Ferry dedicated sleeping cars is on display at the NRM in York. You could take your mum to see it sometime.

Can I ask what the reason for her trip was?

 

[Tester]

Thanks for the quick responses guys. I never knew such a thing existed. I can tell my mother her memory is still good now. lol.

I am very envious of your mum!

The sleeper was way beyond my budget, but I was a frequent user of the seated version, changing between train and ship each side, particularly on Sunday nights after a week wandering around Europe - straight to work on Monday morning.

One time I was late getting to Paris Nord, and saw the train leaving the station. Quick thinking got me over to Paris St Lazare, where I was able to catch another (seasonal) night service to London via Dieppe/Newhaven, so all was well.

It's all a bit different now!

 

[Jan Mayen]

It’s filmed well before your mum’s recollection but there is a good British Tranport Film that features this journey called Link Span.

It’s on you tube. Worth a watch to get a sense of it.

One of the Night Ferry dedicated sleeping cars is on display at the NRM in York. You could take your mum to see it sometime.

Can I ask what the reason for her trip was?

I believe the sleeper is now at Shilden.
I remember it in the old station Hall. I used to watch the video playing next to it, the title of which escapes me.

 

[WesternLancer]

I believe the sleeper is now at Shilden.
I remember it in the old station Hall. I used to watch the video playing next to it, the title of which escapes me.

Thanks. I’d forgotten about the re jigging of the collection related to station hall changes. Correction appreciated.

 

[richieb1971]

It’s filmed well before your mum’s recollection but there is a good British Tranport Film that features this journey called Link Span.

It’s on you tube. Worth a watch to get a sense of it.

One of the Night Ferry dedicated sleeping cars is on display at the NRM in York. You could take your mum to see it sometime.

Can I ask what the reason for her trip was?

My mostly estranged grandpa was murdered in France near Paris. He had links to the Italian Mafia and got on their bad side. He was thrown out of a train apparently.

There was nobody locally to identify the body and my mother was the first family link found. Apparently authorities paid for the tickets for the purpose of identifying the body.

There wasn't any remorse. My dad went to Paris as well but has since passed away, they treated it as a free tourist trip.

but on a positive side, my mother did meet her estranged family as a result of this death and in 1979 I met my grandmother and auntie for the first time.

Its a very dark story and it has history behind it, but nobody is digging because its all likely bad stuff. We know he had an Italian family over there and a UK family over here.

About a month ago I talked about the trip with my mother and when it came to the train part I said about boating across the channel and she said no such thing happened, they got on the train in London and the next morning they were in Paris. It was a long time ago and my mother is getting old and her memory is sometimes a challenge.

I'll take a look at link span.

Thanks.

 

[Gloster]

I am surprised that the authorities would stretch to the cost of a sleeping berth. Normally I think it would have just been a return free pass from London (or wherever) to Paris or the appropriate town in France. Still, they could be more generous, but my feeling this was only when there was, effectively, only one authority involved, not two countries and probably a couple in each.

 

[richieb1971]

Watched link span

Very interesting.

 

[WesternLancer]

My mostly estranged grandpa was murdered in France near Paris. He had links to the Italian Mafia and got on their bad side. He was thrown out of a train apparently.

There was nobody locally to identify the body and my mother was the first family link found. Apparently authorities paid for the tickets for the purpose of identifying the body.

There wasn't any remorse. My dad went to Paris as well but has since passed away, they treated it as a free tourist trip.

but on a positive side, my mother did meet her estranged family as a result of this death and in 1979 I met my grandmother and auntie for the first time.

Its a very dark story and it has history behind it, but nobody is digging because its all likely bad stuff. We know he had an Italian family over there and a UK family over here.

About a month ago I talked about the trip with my mother and when it came to the train part I said about boating across the channel and she said no such thing happened, they got on the train in London and the next morning they were in Paris. It was a long time ago and my mother is getting old and her memory is sometimes a challenge.

I'll take a look at link span.

Thanks.

Gosh. Thats quite a story. Thanks for explaining.

Just a thought (because I wish I’d done such things with older relatives when I could have) maybe you should sound record your mums memories of the trip. You’ve probably considered it.

Hope you enjoyed Link Span. There must be other good footage of the Night Ferry including from the 1970s but I’ve not searched for it, but I had that film on DVD.

It’s a train I regret not going on but it would have been in my childhood and we lived near a south coast port so my parents wouldn’t have seen the point in travelling to London to commence a cross channel journey even tho we went to France for holidays relatively often.

 

[nw1]

How did they deal with all the border stuff?
At London, as now, or on the train before it got to Dover?

 

[Tester]

How did they deal with all the border stuff?
At London, as now, or on the train before it got to Dover?

I don't know for sure, having sadly not done it, but the European norm in that era was that you would hand your passport and completed customs declaration to the attendant, with the passport returned in the morning. Other than in exceptional circumstances, you would not be disturbed.

 

[WesternLancer]

I don't know for sure, having sadly not done it, but the European norm in that era was that you would hand your passport and completed customs declaration to the attendant, with the passport returned in the morning. Other than in exceptional circumstances, you would not be disturbed.

Seem to recall this is the process shown in the film I mentioned.

I think there was another thread on here a while back back where someone who had used the Night Ferry described their experience of travelling on the train.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I travelled on the 'Night Ferry' on the last night - 31/10/80. Your ticket and the fact that you had a passport was checked at Victoria, but you then handed your passport to the attendant on boarding, who returned it in the morning.

 

[Magdalia]

How did they deal with all the border stuff?
At London, as now, or on the train before it got to Dover?

UK Customs was in the Victoria station building. I have not been to Victoria for a while (I have little reason to go there since the Canal Tunnel opened) but I think that the Belmond Pullman reception area uses the part of the station that used to be UK Customs.

The Night Ferry usually departed and arrived in platform 1. There were shutters all along the platforms 1 and 2 island, between the canopy supports. When the Night Ferry was in the station these shutters were closed to separate platform 1 from the rest of the station, only accessible through the barrier.

 

[WesternLancer]

I travelled on the 'Night Ferry' on the last night - 31/10/80. Your ticket and the fact that you had a passport was checked at Victoria, but you then handed your passport to the attendant on boarding, who returned it in the morning.

That must have been very interesting - any memories about the final run and the atmosphere on board for example?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

That must have been very interesting - any memories about the final run and the atmosphere on board for example?

It was all rather sad really - there was a bit of a send-off from Victoria with TV and Press interest and detonators let off on departure - Cl 33 haulage to Dover - but absolutely zero interest in Paris Nord. I watched rather melancholily as the empty stock was shunted out for the last time. The sleeping cars were half-empty - I worked for BR at the time (MS1 - First Class travel in those days!) so it was affordable. Some of the cars were in SNCF livery; others still in Wagon Lits livery. I slept surprisingly well, missing all the action at Dunkerque - beer might have helped.

I returned via Brussels, Rotterdam, Hoek, Harwich and the 'North Country Continental'. Happy Days!

 

[Harlequinuk]

Heres a video of the Class 71 - which would have hauled both the Night Ferry and Golden Arrow in 1976

in fact at the very start is footage of the Night Ferry!

 

[Taunton]

One of the issues with loading the 1930s ships was they had two approach tracks at the stern, fanning out to four on board, and if a train was propelled on board on one track the ship would list to one side appreciably. So the Night Ferry was split in the Dover sidings, and two locomotives propelled, absolutely side by side, the two halves on board together. This was done through steam days and into the diesels, right up to the end with a pair of Class 33. Same on the French side. The Dover crews were of course experts at this. Once the rail vehicles were on board the remaining space was filled with lorries, the deck being flush with the tracks.

There were only one train ferry dock at each side. There were three traditional 1930s train ferries built, of which two were in use at any one time, at least one of which I think lasted to the end, and more modern ferries were built with rail tracks as well. They normally did one, sometimes two, trips across the Channel each day, the daytime runs with freight wagons as required. Because of the singular docks the ships used to depart from both sides together, and pass mid-channel, and that's how the Night Ferry was done each night. The Dunkirk dock was also used by a BR, onetime LNER, train ferry from Harwich.

 

[Gloster]

The three original train ferries were Hampton Ferry, Shepperton Ferry and Twickenham Ferry, of which the last was sold to the French ALA in 1937; they were joined by Saint Germain in 1951. The three Ferries went between 1969 and 1974, being replaced by a variety of ships: Vortigern, Anderida, Chartres and St. Eloi. Saint Germain went when Nord-Pas de Calais arrived in 1988: it worked to the end in 1995.

EDIT: Cambridge Ferry off the Harwich-Zeebrugge route was also used at times in the 1980s.

 

[Acathater]

One of the issues with loading the 1930s ships was they had two approach tracks at the stern, fanning out to four on board, and if a train was propelled on board on one track the ship would list to one side appreciably. So the Night Ferry was split in the Dover sidings, and two locomotives propelled, absolutely side by side, the two halves on board together. This was done through steam days and into the diesels, right up to the end with a pair of Class 33. Same on the French side. The Dover crews were of course experts at this. Once the rail vehicles were on board the remaining space was filled with lorries, the deck being flush with the tracks.

There were only one train ferry dock at each side. There were three traditional 1930s train ferries built, of which two were in use at any one time, at least one of which I think lasted to the end, and more modern ferries were built with rail tracks as well. They normally did one, sometimes two, trips across the Channel each day, the daytime runs with freight wagons as required. Because of the singular docks the ships used to depart from both sides together, and pass mid-channel, and that's how the Night Ferry was done each night. The Dunkirk dock was also used by a BR, onetime LNER, train ferry from Harwich.

I have seen somewhere on the depths of youtube a film showing a pair of 33's working in synch to load balanced wagon sets onto a ferry, as you describe.
Not certain, but I think the ferry involved was Saint Elois (AKA King Orry)