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I think everyone is losing track of the important part of this , is that the railway is a connection for the people who live in areas like Oban , dalmally etc
They need trains that can provide a solid consistent service year round and tourist carriages etc should be an addition not the starting point. If anything there should be a discussion around providing freight capacity on these lines to reduce reliance on roads like the old military road.
Of course ScotRail have previously tried the "premium supplement" model on the WHL, however paying a tenner for the privilege of sitting in a dogbox with the same standard of seating but with a map and the ability to watch your bike, didn't really catch on.
£10 if I recall correctly.
Of course someone in marketing could claim the benefit you received of being immersed in fresh Highland air without any artificial processing.
I haven't used the WHL since the 153s arrived, but I did have a look around one while it was in the platform at Queen Street over the summer and thought and extra £10 was a bit of a joke.
You haven’t traveled on the WHL or an HST recently then! Having fairly recently been on a 156 from Tyndrum to Oban and a few days ago been on an HST from Stirling to Inverness, the logic from a passenger perspective is glaringly obvious!
The HSTs are in a different league in terms of passenger experience. HSTs are suitable for 4-5 hour journeys, 156s with ineffective heating in winter and grossly inadequate toilet capacity for summer loadings are not! The best thing about the 153s appearance on the WHL is an extra toilet for not many more seats on the few services they operate on!
The 156s were never suitable for such distances on such services, operating on 4-5 hour journeys when single units with only one toilet with no redundancy is unacceptable. Their unsuitability was accepted a long time ago by replacing with 158s on the far north lines.
I showed this thread to a friend who glibly replied the best rolling stock for the WHL is an Ember bus!
There lies a big problem for ScotRail, the 156s cannot simply solider on, or the WHL dies as a passenger railway.
£10 if I recall correctly.
Of course someone in marketing could claim the benefit you received of being immersed in fresh Highland air without any artificial processing.
I love hearing the sound of a 156/153 and the track joints from the windows, but being on a freezing train for 3 hours and then 1 hour on a platform for a connection also freezing because the waiting room isn't open then it isn't fun! And this was in summer, let alone winter.
I've also seen tourists struggle to talk over the engine and other things (especially in summer when the windows have to be open for ventilation) and in general it has always given the impression that the 156s aren't the best fit for the job. Given the WHL is probably one of most recognisable and well-known railway journeys in Europe, we really should in the long term have some ambitious replacement.
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I think everyone is losing track of the important part of this , is that the railway is a connection for the people who live in areas like Oban , dalmally etc
They need trains that can provide a solid consistent service year round and tourist carriages etc should be an addition not the starting point. If anything there should be a discussion around providing freight capacity on these lines to reduce reliance on roads like the old military road.
That's true, but given others have said about how subsidised the WHL is, then tourism is a major factor because it directly affects the subsidy (more or less) for everyone else. A train can satisfy both needs in a way that ends up beneffing local people directly (through a more comfortable journey competitve with the coach) and indirectly (less subsidy from more tourism).
We don't have to create a tourist train that's incompatible with running anywhere else; it can be as simple as adding some quality-of-life features, like panorama windows, sound dampening and air conditioning (if you were to be even more speculative, a small 1st class might capture some extra business in tourism season). The SBB panorama for example is treated no differently than a normal coach and runs regularly in Austria and I think as far as Hamburg or Cologne (if they still do this) and used to run as far as Poland
You haven’t traveled on the WHL or an HST recently then! Having fairly recently been on a 156 from Tyndrum to Oban and a few days ago been on an HST from Stirling to Inverness, the logic from a passenger perspective is glaringly obvious!
The HSTs are in a different league in terms of passenger experience. HSTs are suitable for 4-5 hour journeys, 156s with ineffective heating in winter and grossly inadequate toilet capacity for summer loadings are not! The best thing about the 153s appearance on the WHL is an extra toilet for not many more seats on the few services they operate on!
The 156s were never suitable for such distances on such services, operating on 4-5 hour journeys when single units with only one toilet with no redundancy is unacceptable. Their unsuitability was accepted a long time ago by replacing with 158s on the far north lines.
I showed this thread to a friend who glibly replied the best rolling stock for the WHL is an Ember bus!
There lies a big problem for ScotRail, the 156s cannot simply solider on, or the WHL dies as a passenger railway.
HST's won't work on the line unless you want a ton of shunting at Crianlarich , and with how unreliable the HSTs are and the questions around there safety with land slips running then regularly thought areas like Falls of Cruachan are all diasters waiting to happen , I use the Oban train 8 or 9 times a year and would love the HSTs for there comfort but it just isn't going to happen.
Class 170s are probably the future
Or ScotRail could look at ordering something like the 197s but assuming they would need a fair bit of modification to work on the line.
Which then begs the question, how reliable will another recycled fleet of ageing trains turn out to be in a different working environment with new servicing arrangements?
HST's won't work on the line unless you want a ton of shunting at Crianlarich , and with how unreliable the HSTs are and the questions around there safety with land slips running then regularly thought areas like Falls of Cruachan are all diasters waiting to happen , I use the Oban train 8 or 9 times a year and would love the HSTs for there comfort but it just isn't going to happen.
Class 170s are probably the future
Or ScotRail could look at ordering something like the 197s but assuming they would need a fair bit of modification to work on the
The shunting at Crianlarich is proposed to end anyway at an as yet unspecified date, to allow more capacity/flexibility and increased service frequency from Crianlarich south. Ultimately the objective is a train every hour to/from Queen Street, alternating between Oban and Fort William.
The reliability aspect, how often have HSTs just sat down somewhere in service?
Line speeds are lower on the WHL and it is subject to further speed restrictions in severe weather. Would a 156 really fare any better if hit a landslide / rock / avalanche at 70mph?
My understanding is the 170s can not run on the WHL due to the geometry of the track - you’re not talking about shaving an inch or so of platforms for doors, but having to fundamentally re-engineer / realign parts of the route.
The first class on the ScotRail HSTs is probably the best passenger ambience and comfort on the British rail network today.
Get a decent catering offering on them and you’ve got the premium scenic / tourist segment well covered.
There is no doubt demand for the WHL is suppressed by lack of capacity in peak periods and an utterly horrendous travel experience in winter.
The HSTs would be a draw in themselves, a fitting train for what is trumpeted as one of the world’s great railway journeys. For which the 156s should be regarded as a national embarrassment!
The reliability aspect, how often have HSTs just sat down somewhere in service?
Line speeds are lower on the WHL and it is subject to further speed restrictions in severe weather. Would a 156 really fare any better if hit a landslide / rock / avalanche?
The shunting at Crianlarich is proposed to end anyway at an as yet unspecified date, to allow more capacity/flexibility and increased service frequency from Crianlarich south. Ultimately the objective is a train every hour to/from Queen Street, alternating between Oban and Fort William.
The reliability aspect, how often have HSTs just sat down somewhere in service?
Line speeds are lower on the WHL and it is subject to further speed restrictions in severe weather. Would a 156 really fare any better if hit a landslide / rock / avalanche at 70mph?
My understanding is the 170s can not run on the WHL due to the geometry of the track - you’re not talking about shaving an inch or so of platforms for doors, but having to fundamentally re-engineer / realign parts of the route.
The first class on the ScotRail HSTs is probably the best passenger ambience and comfort on the British rail network today.
Get a decent catering offering on them and you’ve got the premium scenic / tourist segment well covered.
There is no doubt demand for the WHL is suppressed by lack of capacity in peak periods and an utterly horrendous travel experience in winter.
The HSTs would be a draw in themselves, a fitting train for what is trumpeted as one of the world’s great railway journeys. For which the 156s should be regarded as a national embarrassment!
HSTs fail in service on a regular basis. If you look at Scotrail journey check for today you can see they are short at least 2 HSTs. That means there's 11 of 25 units out of service. On their current Intercity routes it's easy to sub in a 158 or a 170. That leaves other services short formed but avoids cancellations. What happens when one fails in Mallaig or Oban? There's no depot so no replacement.
Whilst a HST is more comfortable than a 156, most common complaint about 156 is heating. The HST fleets antiquated HVAC system isn't reliable and failures are common.
The service makes a considerable loss given the seasonality of it and HST are incredibly thirsty and expensive to maintain. Why would anyone want to increase that loss. There needs to be reasonable value for the tax payers money.
The hourly service is a long term objective but the infrastructure isn't there to allow it yet. This thread is looking for short term solutions.
HST are iconic trains and I understand why enthusiasts love them but their day is over. It's time they were retired and they can be enjoyed on charter services and heritage lines.
Sorry to be blunt but it is hard to take this suggestion seriously. Like many I really like HSTs, but they are very old now, have proven to be a nightmare for Scotrail, and should not be in service anywhere. It has also been pointed out that they would not be able to split at Crianlarich. This is not a reasonable suggestion at all.
It is true that the current stock is inadequate for different reasons. Ideally a rural tri-mode should be constructed that would mainly run on battery power, but able to draw from electrified wires where possible, and also equipped with a diesel generator to avoid running out of electricity in remote areas. This could be used on large parts of the railway network- essentially for any service on unelectrified lines that was neither particularly short nor an intercity service. The Class 756 is the obvious prototype for this.
In the medium term, a cascade is the best solution. Seeing as people have said Class 170s would not fit on the line, spare 158s displaced by electrification would be a suitable stop-gap.
In the medium term, a cascade is the best solution. Seeing as people have said Class 170s would not fit on the line, spare 158s displaced by electrification would be a suitable stop-gap.
I still think 222s will mean 170s can be released to the Far North and thus 158s to the West Highland. There are as someone else posted only about as many vehicles as HST ones, but they are much, much more reliable, so will be able to be diagrammed more intensively, certainly once they've had time to bed in and the depots are used to maintaining them.
I still think 222s will mean 170s can be released to the Far North and thus 158s to the West Highland. There are as someone else posted only about as many vehicles as HST ones, but they are much, much more reliable, so will be able to be diagrammed more intensively, certainly once they've had time to bed in and the depots are used to maintaining them.
There's 17 HST diagrams a day and the tender is for 19 diagrams a day. That will only free up 2 units. The 222 will used more intensively but that's because there's only 22 available Vs 25 HSTs, leaving 3 for maintenance and training requirements. Those 2 released units will undoubtedly be used to strengthen very busy Fife and Borders services. I imagine it'll be the BEMU units entering service that will result in a cascade to rural lines.
The shunting at Crianlarich is proposed to end anyway at an as yet unspecified date, to allow more capacity/flexibility and increased service frequency from Crianlarich south. Ultimately the objective is a train every hour to/from Queen Street, alternating between Oban and Fort William.
The reliability aspect, how often have HSTs just sat down somewhere in service?
Line speeds are lower on the WHL and it is subject to further speed restrictions in severe weather. Would a 156 really fare any better if hit a landslide / rock / avalanche at 70mph?
My understanding is the 170s can not run on the WHL due to the geometry of the track - you’re not talking about shaving an inch or so of platforms for doors, but having to fundamentally re-engineer / realign parts of the route.
The first class on the ScotRail HSTs is probably the best passenger ambience and comfort on the British rail network today.
Get a decent catering offering on them and you’ve got the premium scenic / tourist segment well covered.
There is no doubt demand for the WHL is suppressed by lack of capacity in peak periods and an utterly horrendous travel experience in winter.
The HSTs would be a draw in themselves, a fitting train for what is trumpeted as one of the world’s great railway journeys. For which the 156s should be regarded as a national embarrassment!
22 222s to replace 25 HSTs but aren't Lumo going to be operating the other 5 in the the relatively short term? They'll be needing new homes by the 2030s. That might permit wider deployment if finance was to become available.
Incidentally, I liked HSTs from 1977 when I first met them, and LSL's preserved units are great now, but they really aren't suitable to be exposed daily on remote lines in all weathers far from support. I've seen how many seem to sit around doing nothing in Edinburgh and viewed the numerous rusting patches on the roofs of many carriages. I threw a stone in the pond and it certainly got a reaction
22 222s to replace 25 HSTs but aren't Lumo going to be operating the other 5 in the the relatively short term? They'll be needing new homes by the 2030s. That might permit wider deployment if finance was to become available.
Incidentally, I liked HSTs from 1977 when I first met them, and LSL's preserved units are great now, but they really aren't suitable to be exposed daily on remote lines in all weathers far from support. I've seen how many seem to sit around doing nothing in Edinburgh and viewed the numerous rusting patches on the roofs of many carriages. I threw a stone in the pond and it certainly got a reaction
It cannot and will not be HSTs. The loops lengths aren't long enough to sacrifice two coaches for two power cars. There are other reasons, but this is the primary one.
It cannot and will not be 222s. They're too heavy, and would be subject to severe speed restrictions. They're also too long to run coupled up, which would limit you severely on the timetable.
After the BEMUs arrive, it will be run with 158s. There will need to be some platform modifications; these are being planned, albeit very very slowly.
It will not be 170s. They're not really sprightly enough to get up and down the hills, they don't have end gangways which would be very difficult to work around, and they're slated for moving to Aberdeen, Inverness and the GSW routes. There is also the issue of the fact that they don't fit; I have been reliably informed by several different people 'in the know' that they have issues other than platform clearance that make them unsuitable without major interventions, however, as is often the case, nobody has ever told me what that issue is, beyond that it relates to the bogies in particular, and clearance issues more generally.
As for a long term replacement, there's an acceptance that the money isn't there for brand new rolling stock for the rural routes in the immediate future, and the BEMUs gives you enough time by shuffling units around to buy a couple more years before that particular problem needs addressing.
If we want to speculate on what such future stock would look like, then I think that's a bit pointless currently; it's likely that any such units, and they will be multiple units and not coaching stock, haven't been designed yet.
And if we want to discuss the suitability or otherwise of the 156s on this route, then I might humbly suggest that the ScotRail contingent are not long for this world, and it's likely that in five years we'll be sitting here talking about the suitability or otherwise of 158s, with our rose tinted spectacles on. Maybe in a decade or so we'll have more electrification and cascaded 197s running on HVO, but then again maybe not.
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The solution to that is a a return to the pre-Sprinter timetable of separate Oban and Fort William services. However, much as I would love to travel over the West Highland on an HST, it will not happen for the many reasons well explained above. When new stock is required it will have to be DMUs with corridor connections, and I doubt a bespoke design for the route could be justified.
With regards this issue, the splitting of Oban and Fort Bill services, that is planned. I can't say, and don't know, when it will happen, however it's in the pipeline, for an unnamed future date.
It cannot and will not be HSTs. The loops lengths aren't long enough to sacrifice two coaches for two power cars. There are other reasons, but this is the primary one.
It cannot and will not be 222s. They're too heavy, and would be subject to severe speed restrictions. They're also too long to run coupled up, which would limit you severely on the timetable.
After the BEMUs arrive, it will be run with 158s. There will need to be some platform modifications; these are being planned, albeit very very slowly.
It will not be 170s. They're not really sprightly enough to get up and down the hills, they don't have end gangways which would be very difficult to work around, and they're slated for moving to Aberdeen, Inverness and the GSW routes. There is also the issue of the fact that they don't fit; I have been reliably informed by several different people 'in the know' that they have issues other than platform clearance that make them unsuitable without major interventions, however, as is often the case, nobody has ever told me what that issue is, beyond that it relates to the bogies in particular, and clearance issues more generally.
As for a long term replacement, there's an acceptance that the money isn't there for brand new rolling stock for the rural routes in the immediate future, and the BEMUs gives you enough time by shuffling units around to buy a couple more years before that particular problem needs addressing.
If we want to speculate on what such future stock would look like, then I think that's a bit pointless currently; it's likely that any such units, and they will be multiple units and not coaching stock, haven't been designed yet.
And if we want to discuss the suitability or otherwise of the 156s on this route, then I might humbly suggest that the ScotRail contingent are not long for this world, and it's likely that in five years we'll be sitting here talking about the suitability or otherwise of 158s, with our rose tinted spectacles on. Maybe in a decade or so we'll have more electrification and cascaded 197s running on HVO, but then again maybe not.
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With regards this issue, the splitting of Oban and Fort Bill services, that is planned. I can't say, and don't know, when it will happen, however it's in the pipeline, for an unnamed future date.
Doing nothing for 5 years is unacceptable. On the what if an HST got stuck in the middle of nowhere question? A current 156 getting stuck in snow on Rannoch Moor would become very unpleasant very quickly given the inability of these things to warm up!
By all accounts and by personal experience, the lack of heating appears to be notably worse on 156s than it was in the past. Has anything been changed that explains this?
So what short term improvements are feasible to the 156s? Fitting automatic doors either side of the gangway and at both vestibules would at least cut out the ice cold draughts that funnel the length of the 156 carriages and might give the feeble heating at least a fighting chance?
Can shore power be used to pre-heat them at terminus stations?
Is there the the units / availability to ensure that single 156s never work north of Crianlarich towards Fort William on their own and either doubled up or run with a 153 (year round), so there is always 2 toilets for both capacity and redundancy.
Can I point out that Scotrail have recently spent a lot of money upgrading the braking system on the HSTs. And the unused coaches which were sitting in Slateford for years have now been restored to use to add a 5th vehicle to more sets. And that the lease for the trains doesn't run out until 2030.
ASLEF may want them withdrawn but clearly they're not going to be.
Can I point out that Scotrail have recently spent a lot of money upgrading the braking system on the HSTs. And the unused coaches which were sitting in Slateford for years have now been restored to use to add a 5th vehicle to more sets. And that the lease for the trains doesn't run out until 2030.
ASLEF may want them withdrawn but clearly they're not going to be.
They may have spent all the money, but they're still unreliable old junk. If Scotrail don't want to withdraw them, why did they issue a tender in December 2024 for a replacement fleet to enter service from this December?
And once they are replaced on the Inter7City routes, are they suitable for anything else in Scotland, given the issues already mentioned?
Can I point out that Scotrail have recently spent a lot of money upgrading the braking system on the HSTs. And the unused coaches which were sitting in Slateford for years have now been restored to use to add a 5th vehicle to more sets. And that the lease for the trains doesn't run out until 2030.
ASLEF may want them withdrawn but clearly they're not going to be.
They may have spent all the money, but they're still unreliable old junk. If Scotrail don't want to withdraw them, why did they issue a tender in December 2024 for a replacement fleet to enter service from this December?
And once they are replaced on the Inter7City routes, are they suitable for anything else in Scotland, given the issues already mentioned?
I'm aware the Stadler Flirt's power pod isn't anything like two coach lengths, but that pod still takes up valuable platform space, plus no gangways. Would this rule out a 231/755/756 type solution?
So the people who use the WHL just have to get back in their box and accept they’re not worthy of heated trains in the 21st century? Nice to be patronised by someone with access to London’s transport network!
The 158s were promised 12 years ago. Enough is enough. The 156s should never have been on the WHL in the first place, that they are still there 37 years later is a ****ing disgrace.
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