How Viable are Preserved Railways?

[John Luxton]

Pleased to note the winter steam up at Bodmin today was well attended. There were brake van rides over the whole line. Such things give the visitor offering that something extra!

Some lines do seem to be offering additional experiences I did a very enjoyable brake van trip over the South Devon Railway in May 2024. Whole different view and experience than being in a carraige. A couple of years earlier I went from Llangollen to Berwyn in a mineral wagon - which had been provided with seats - on a Berwyn shuttle! These sort of ventures make regulars want to come back and try something new.

 

[Trainlog]

Some lines do seem to be offering additional experiences I did a very enjoyable brake van trip over the South Devon Railway in May 2024. Whole different view and experience than being in a carraige. A couple of years earlier I went from Llangollen to Berwyn in a mineral wagon - which had been provided with seats - on a Berwyn shuttle! These sort of ventures make regulars want to come back and try something new.

I agree with this, it's certainly a different take and perspective as it's not the same as a Mk1 coach experience-wise. It also has the added benefit of seeing more reason to restore wagons than to leave them to rust and eventually be scrapped.

 

[Falcon1200]

Just this year I realised that I have enjoyed several brake van rides so have now made it a focus for future preserved line visits; It is certainly an added attraction, for me at least!

 

[Bodiam]

Very few of those overseas tourists stray from the tourist hotspots of Central London, York, and Edinburgh, other than perhaps to do a whirlwind coach tour of the whole UK in a week. So I doubt that overseas tourists make up more than a very small percentage of the custom to preserved railways.

From casual observation in the museum at Tenterden (and of cars in the car park) the Kent & East Sussex does get a small but regular number of German or Dutch visitors, and rather fewer French. Very occasional Americans. Only a very small percentage of the total, though. Being not far from Dover and Cheriton and with several camp sites in the area helps.

 

[frankmoh]

Very few of those overseas tourists stray from the tourist hotspots of Central London, York, and Edinburgh, other than perhaps to do a whirlwind coach tour of the whole UK in a week. So I doubt that overseas tourists make up more than a very small percentage of the custom to preserved railways.

I wonder about the Epping-Ongar Railway, the only heritage line in London the nearest heritage line to London.

 

[LUYMun]

I wonder about the Epping-Ongar Railway, the nearest heritage line to London.

I'd imagine more Londoners would go over to the EOR than international tourists. If there's any attraction transport related, they'll go to Covent Garden for the London Transport Museum.

 

[railfan99]

From casual observation in the museum at Tenterden (and of cars in the car park) the Kent & East Sussex does get a small but regular number of German or Dutch visitors, and rather fewer French. Very occasional Americans. Only a very small percentage of the total, though. Being not far from Dover and Cheriton and with several camp sites in the area helps.

I have visited and travelled on this excellent railway twice, but for other Australians to visit would be rare, unlike on Severn Valley or North Yorkshire Moors Railway that could be said to be better known. I also visited the Colonel Stephens Railway Museum on one visit, which was very good, but the draw for me is largely line coverage not museums.

 

[martin butler]

None have gone bust, so clearly, they have remained viable, many have changed how they operate, and what they offer to the public, added attractions they might have not done before, others have retrenched, reducing their services, more diesel usage, where before they might have been 100 per cent steam, now its closer to 50/50 With steam on the most prestigious, such as dining train,

 

[Bodiam]

None have gone bust, so clearly, they have remained viable, many have changed how they operate, and what they offer to the public, added attractions they might have not done before, others have retrenched, reducing their services, more diesel usage, where before they might have been 100 per cent steam, now its closer to 50/50 With steam on the most prestigious, such as dining train,

I believe the Llangollen Railway came pretty close to it - one factor discouraging liquidation is that the assets of a railway aren't worth much apart from running trains on them. Thousands of pounds worth of nice new ballast becomes just a nuisance if you want to use the land for something apart from railway track. Management of heritage railways has a hard job these days - combining a professional approach to safety, engineering and finance with marketing to the general population while still retaining the support of their base membership (mostly railway enthusiasts) who the railway depends on to provide fundraising, volunteers and reputation.

 

[35B]

I believe the Llangollen Railway came pretty close to it - one factor discouraging liquidation is that the assets of a railway aren't worth much apart from running trains on them. Thousands of pounds worth of nice new ballast becomes just a nuisance if you want to use the land for something apart from railway track. Management of heritage railways has a hard job these days - combining a professional approach to safety, engineering and finance with marketing to the general population while still retaining the support of their base membership (mostly railway enthusiasts) who the railway depends on to provide fundraising, volunteers and reputation.

Llangollen did go bust. Fortunately, the supporting charity were able to raise enough funds to protect the line and much of the stock, and reopen on a more restricted model.

One of the major factors in Llangollen’s bankruptcy was the impact of the failure of their contract engineering business. That highlights how diversification can bring its own risks.

 

[lineisclear]

Llangollen did go bust. Fortunately, the supporting charity were able to raise enough funds to protect the line and much of the stock, and reopen on a more restricted model.

One of the major factors in Llangollen’s bankruptcy was the impact of the failure of their contract engineering business. That highlights how diversification can bring its own risks.

I suggest that's not quite accurate.

My understanding is that the entity that went bust was a subsidiary of the charity. That subsidiary undertook contract engineering as a commercial business. Following its insolvency its assets were sold to generate a limited return for the subsidiary's creditors. The charity was able to continue because it was not a "supporting charity". As the holder of the necessary railway operating licence it owned and operated the railway supported by the subsidiary. The charity's solvency was not the issue. It was not liable for the debts of the subsidiary and it owned sufficient assets to allow it to continue operating.

Licences issued as Light Railway Orders or Transport and Works Act Orders terminate automatically if the licence holder is liquidated. Those issued as LRO's may be notionally transferable but in practice it's not easy.

Had the charity gone bust, as implied, the outcome would have been very different. It's great that the railway survives but unfortunately it's encouraged the mistaken belief that a heritage railway licence holding operating company can go bust leaving open the option of a phoenix rising from the ashes.

 

[Magdalia]

There is a report on "quieter" Christmas traffic at the Nene Valley Railway here:

'Tricky' new year for Nene Valley Railway after quieter Christmas

A heritage line facing financial challenges says it has had fewer passengers over Christmas.

www.bbc.co.uk

A heritage railway said it was facing 2026 in a "trickier position" after a challenging Christmas.

The Nene Valley Railway (NVR), near Peterborough, has relied heavily on festive events to bolster income and keep it running all year round.

But chairman Michael Purcell told BBC Radio Cambridgeshire visitor numbers "were down compared with last year" and there had been "fewer full trains".

He said: "We haven't had all the income we want to make... we start next year on a trickier position."

 

[The exile]

From casual observation in the museum at Tenterden (and of cars in the car park) the Kent & East Sussex does get a small but regular number of German or Dutch visitors, and rather fewer French.

Suspect that reflect the relative levels of railway interest (and preservation) in the countries concerned.

 

[kje7812]

There is a report on "quieter" Christmas traffic at the Nene Valley Railway here:

'Tricky' new year for Nene Valley Railway after quieter Christmas

A heritage line facing financial challenges says it has had fewer passengers over Christmas.

www.bbc.co.uk

Rather unfortunate.
Severn Valley festive services were up on last year and the post Christmas running was well filled as well.

 

[BBF3]

Very few of those overseas tourists stray from the tourist hotspots of Central London, York, and Edinburgh, other than perhaps to do a whirlwind coach tour of the whole UK in a week. So I doubt that overseas tourists make up more than a very small percentage of the custom to preserved railways.

G&WSR gets a steady stream of Indian visitors. A visit by steam train to Broadway as a quintessential Cotswold village seems to be on a lot of their holiday itineraries. A fair few get quite interested in the locos and stock as well.

 

[martin butler]

As far as I can tell, the NVR has been experiencing problems since covid, has it every regained the numbers it lost? Other lines, changed updated, tried new options, and remained above water, some only just, and remain so, In these times standing still is not an option, evolve your offering, or die, is the best way to explain it, many lines still have got to get through the winter and hope for a good easter, No ones's out of the woods yet.

 

[geoffk]

None have gone bust, so clearly, they have remained viable, many have changed how they operate, and what they offer to the public, added attractions they might have not done before, others have retrenched, reducing their services, more diesel usage, where before they might have been 100 per cent steam, now its closer to 50/50 With steam on the most prestigious, such as dining train,

Didn't the Elsecar Railway effectively go bust? The heritage railway trust transferred the lease on the land back to Barnsley Council although the heritage centre itself appears to be up and running.  

 

[Dave S 56F]

As far as I can tell, the NVR has been experiencing problems since covid, has it every regained the numbers it lost? Other lines, changed updated, tried new options, and remained above water, some only just, and remain so, In these times standing still is not an option, evolve your offering, or die, is the best way to explain it, many lines still have got to get through the winter and hope for a good easter, No ones's out of the woods yet.

Is the problem as well possibly that at the Nene valley railway the Peterborough east N.V.R. station Is quite well hidden and quite hard to find?
If a 1st time visitor goes to ride it from peterborough and that even the 1st time I visited the line in 2016 I had to ask locals in Peterborough how to get to the Peterborough East N.V.R. station by walking round the side of asda and the river nene, Which I dident know on my 1st visit to the N.V.R. leads to their Peterborough station and rode on 34081 92 squadron although yes getting there by train is quite awkward but I suppose driving up the A1.M great north Rd it's fairly easy access to Wansford Station N.V.R. if in a car.

 

[Trainlog]

The Spa Valley Railway is making good use of its resources by running Caledonian 812 class No.828 on a Burns night dining special on the 24th of January, complete with whisky, haggis and a piper playing at Tunbridge Wells West station.

It's certainly a good idea, and it makes use of combining existing concepts such as Whisky specials, dining trains, and a hired in Caledonian 812, especially during a month like January.

Event Burns Night Dining Experience : Spa Valley Railway | Steam Trains & Family Events in Tunbridge Wells

Enjoy steam train rides, family days out, dining trains and special events on the Spa Valley Railway, running between Tunbridge Wells and Eridge in Kent.

spavalleyrailway.co.uk

 

[Djgr]

Is the problem as well possibly that at the Nene valley railway the Peterborough east N.V.R. station Is quite well hidden and quite hard to find?
If a 1st time visitor goes to ride it from peterborough and that even the 1st time I visited the line in 2016 I had to ask locals in Peterborough how to get to the Peterborough East N.V.R. station by walking round the side of asda and the river nene, Which I dident know on my 1st visit to the N.V.R. leads to their Peterborough station and rode on 34081 92 squadron although yes getting there by train is quite awkward but I suppose driving up the A1.M great north Rd it's fairly easy access to Wansford Station N.V.R. if in a car.

I think the problem is that Peterborough is barely on the tourist circuit.

 

[geoffk]

I think the problem is that Peterborough is barely on the tourist circuit.

True, but nether are Bury or Rawtenstall. I suppose that the ELR, being mostly in a Metropolitan area, has a large population in its catchment, whereas Peterborough is some 30 miles from Cambridge.

 

[YorkshireBear]

True, but nether are Bury or Rawtenstall. I suppose that the ELR, being mostly in a Metropolitan area, has a large population in its catchment, whereas Peterborough is some 30 miles from Cambridge.

Manchester is however starting to gain a fair bit of traction for tourism and as you say the ELR has a much larger population within a short distance. Including a lot of Lancashire as well as Manchester and parts of the Pennines.

 

[D6130]

Deleted.

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True, but nether are Bury or Rawtenstall. I suppose that the ELR, being mostly in a Metropolitan area, has a large population in its catchment, whereas Peterborough is some 30 miles from Cambridge.

Does Greater Peterborough not have as large a population - if not larger - than Cambridge?

 

[Magdalia]

Does Greater Peterborough not have as large a population - if not larger - than Cambridge?

Much larger. The 2021 census built up area figures are 191k for Peterborough and 153k for Cambridge. Using local authority area data the gap is even bigger, 216k for Peterborough and 146k for Cambridge. And both are growing rapidly, by about 18% between 2011 and 2021 on the local authority count, which gives a better comparison over time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jan 2026 ==

I think the problem is that Peterborough is barely on the tourist circuit.

Peterborough is trying to do something about that, see here:

New tourism board set up to promote Peterborough

The board says it will aim to attract visitors through a visitor hub, film office and new website.

www.bbc.co.uk

A new independent tourism board has been established for Peterborough to promote its cultural, historic and natural attractions, and boost its economy.
The board said it would aim to attract more visitors by creating a new visitor hub and film office, and coordinate promotion between different bodies.
Chaired by Labour MP Andrew Pakes, the board has also unveiled the Discover Peterborough website, external, which showcases what the city has to offer, along with Peterborough's new strapline - "More than you imagine…".
"This is a proud moment for Peterborough and a major step forward in telling a stronger story for our city," Pakes said.
"From our cathedral and heritage landscapes to our arts venues and festivals, we are showing the world that this city is more than you imagine."

Something that might appeal to lots of members here is that it hosts one of CAMRA's biggest beer festivals.

 

[Railcar]

Getting to the Bluebell when you don't have a car (I don't) means the slow stopping train to East Grinstead (and a wait at EGR for the return, since the Bluebell's services to EGR in the afternoon don't seem to match the Southern timetable).
This following idea really belongs in 'Speculative Discussion' - if suitable Bluebell steam locomotives were made main-line ready, then a Bluebell service from (say) East Croydon Platform 6 in the morning and a return in the afternoon would gather many more visitors. Non-stop from ECR to EGR - a very scenic ride. The link to the main line at EGR exists - guest locos use it for special events.

 

[Djgr]

Getting to the Bluebell when you don't have a car (I don't) means the slow stopping train to East Grinstead (and a wait at EGR for the return, since the Bluebell's services to EGR in the afternoon don't seem to match the Southern timetable).
This following idea really belongs in 'Speculative Discussion' - if suitable Bluebell steam locomotives were made main-line ready, then a Bluebell service from (say) East Croydon Platform 6 in the morning and a return in the afternoon would gather many more visitors. Non-stop from ECR to EGR - a very scenic ride. The link to the main line at EGR exists - guest locos use it for special events.

I seem to remember a train to Haywards Heath, a bus and then a bit of walk to get to the Southern End

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jan 2026 ==

Much larger. The 2021 census built up area figures are 191k for Peterborough and 153k for Cambridge. Using local authority area data the gap is even bigger, 216k for Peterborough and 146k for Cambridge. And both are growing rapidly, by about 18% between 2011 and 2021 on the local authority count, which gives a better comparison over time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jan 2026 ==

Greater Manchester is around 3 million!

 

[Egg Centric]

Much larger. The 2021 census built up area figures are 191k for Peterborough and 153k for Cambridge. Using local authority area data the gap is even bigger, 216k for Peterborough and 146k for Cambridge. And both are growing rapidly, by about 18% between 2011 and 2021 on the local authority count, which gives a better comparison over time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jan 2026 ==


Peterborough is trying to do something about that, see here:

New tourism board set up to promote Peterborough

The board says it will aim to attract visitors through a visitor hub, film office and new website.

www.bbc.co.uk

Something that might appeal to lots of members here is that it hosts one of CAMRA's biggest beer festivals.

There's only so much they can do though, isn't there? Peterborough is well situated for exploring other places, but the town itself is dire.

 

[35B]

Getting to the Bluebell when you don't have a car (I don't) means the slow stopping train to East Grinstead (and a wait at EGR for the return, since the Bluebell's services to EGR in the afternoon don't seem to match the Southern timetable).
This following idea really belongs in 'Speculative Discussion' - if suitable Bluebell steam locomotives were made main-line ready, then a Bluebell service from (say) East Croydon Platform 6 in the morning and a return in the afternoon would gather many more visitors. Non-stop from ECR to EGR - a very scenic ride. The link to the main line at EGR exists - guest locos use it for special events.

Unlikely to begin to pay for itself, even if you can sort out the capacity for the run rounds.

 

[simonw]

Getting to the Bluebell when you don't have a car (I don't) means the slow stopping train to East Grinstead (and a wait at EGR for the return, since the Bluebell's services to EGR in the afternoon don't seem to match the Southern timetable).
This following idea really belongs in 'Speculative Discussion' - if suitable Bluebell steam locomotives were made main-line ready, then a Bluebell service from (say) East Croydon Platform 6 in the morning and a return in the afternoon would gather many more visitors. Non-stop from ECR to EGR - a very scenic ride. The link to the main line at EGR exists - guest locos use it for special events

The logistics alone would sink such an idea, let alone the costs of mainline running.

 

[sad1e]

Getting to the Bluebell when you don't have a car (I don't) means the slow stopping train to East Grinstead (and a wait at EGR for the return, since the Bluebell's services to EGR in the afternoon don't seem to match the Southern timetable).
This following idea really belongs in 'Speculative Discussion' - if suitable Bluebell steam locomotives were made main-line ready, then a Bluebell service from (say) East Croydon Platform 6 in the morning and a return in the afternoon would gather many more visitors. Non-stop from ECR to EGR - a very scenic ride. The link to the main line at EGR exists - guest locos use it for special events.

Even if they did run to east Croydon for ease of transport I doubt they would use a steam loco due the the need of runarounds. It would be much more sensible for them to use their thumper when it's fully restored.