Avanti West Coast via Settle (for WCML Bridge replacement next January?)

[pokemonsuper9]

Oh I didnt realise, do you have the times for that, I presume it goes through Manchester Victoria, thank you

08:15 and 15:15 from Manchester Victoria, if you come straight back arriving back at 13:06 or 20:08.
Off-Peak return undiscounted price is £20.60 (Manchester Victoria - Hellifield, but the train goes further to Ribblehead)

 

[The Planner]

When these diversion are done do we recon Avanti will see it as a success and failure?

They will learn from the experience and it will be done again.

 

[ChilliSauce]

Bit of both i would say.

I would like to think that Avanti have tried very hard to try and make a success of this but have been struggling with availability / reliability of class 8xx trains .. So this must raise the question is class 8xx actually fit for purpose ?

 

[johndarm]

The farce continues today, with the first two southbound runs cancelled. 1Z83 had a problem with the traction equipment, 1Z85 had an issue with traincrew.

 

[AlterEgo]

The cold weather can't be helping the traction reliability, and the lack of redundancy given a single engine failure can mean a 5 car train doesn't reliably make it over the gradients is far from ideal. There were fewer issues IIRC with 57 drags in the past, though I don't recall those being done in the winter. If the next diverts are in more favourable weather it may be a more solid operation, but at least they are attempting to run a service by train here.

 

[raveon]

You could understand a few teething problems in the first few days but we are now over a week in to these diversions (and the weather has actually been pretty benign for most of the period so can’t be considered a major factor) yet the problems persist.

Maybe Avanti are working on the basis that if they do a bad enough, half hearted job, they won’t be asked to do it again!

 

[shredder1]

08:15 and 15:15 from Manchester Victoria, if you come straight back arriving back at 13:06 or 20:08.
Off-Peak return undiscounted price is £20.60 (Manchester Victoria - Hellifield, but the train goes further to Ribblehead)

Sorry I was being a bit lazy there, great stuff though and thank you for all your trouble, Ill probably get the 08.15 to Hellifield and play it by ear, thank you so much.

 

[cadder toad]

This doesn't appear to be working particularly great does it, I wonder if they will bother with this again

Yesterday it appears, 37% of southbound Shuttles via Settle were cancelled. Northbound 28% of these Shuttles were cancelled.

Of the five northbound shuttles that did run then the connecting service to Glasgow didn't wait for three of them. The connecting service was despatched before the shuttle arrived in Carlisle. Presumably leading to a further significant delay on an already prolonged journey.

A similar picture seems to be developing today

 

[The Planner]

You could understand a few teething problems in the first few days but we are now over a week in to these diversions (and the weather has actually been pretty benign for most of the period so can’t be considered a major factor) yet the problems persist.

Maybe Avanti are working on the basis that if they do a bad enough, half hearted job, they won’t be asked to do it again!

Avanti weren't asked, they were jointly suggesting it.

 

[Carlisle]

A similar picture seems to be developing today

So far today 1 out of 4 southbound shuttles from Carlisle has actually run, seems shambolic .

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Thanks mate, not sure of a cheaper way really, maybe just a return from Preston or Wigan to Carlisle, Ill check the prices, I have a railcard, thank you.

Had wondered whether a 'North West Round Robin' might work (£34.25 with railcard) in conjunction with an Off Peak Day Return from Preston to Hellifield, route "via Clitheroe" (£10.05 with railcard). Unless, of course, an Off Peak Day Return from Preston to Carlisle, route "via Penrith" has been made valid for travel via some temporary easement, at £20.20 (with railcard). Can anyone advise? The 4 days in 8 'North West Rover' is £67.45 with railcard.

 

[Carlisle]

The decisions are made at Control, I'm not sure why Carlisle's familiarity or otherwise would come into it.

I pretty much agree with your post but a fitter or two familiar with idiosyncrasies of these units might’ve made a significant dent in the number of failures seen since these shuttles started.
The Pendo drags you mention elsewhere often had a fitter travelling onboard.

 

[yorksrob]

I still think it's excellent that they're attempting this. Were I not skint and out of annual leave, I'd give it a spin myself.

 

[johndarm]

1Z89 13:21 Carlisle to Preston cancelled. No reason given to passengers on the station, but a replacement bus was provided. RTT says an issue with train crew. 805001+805007 sent south in its path empty as 5Z89, and it appears to have failed on the single line between Carlisle Station and Petteril Bridge Jn, blocking the Leeds and Newcastle lines in both directions.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I still think it's excellent that they're attempting this. Were I not skint and out of annual leave, I'd give it a spin myself.

Indeed, it is. It's a long time since the Pendo. drags, thought that the concept had been abandoned.
Interesting, by contrast, that the similar Chlltern Lines shuttle into Euston idea (3 x 221s, or the current equivalent) has been abandoned. From the way that the Hanslope blockade was dealt with, it's now considered preferable to have (generally) a change of trains at Rugby then an RRB between Northampton and Milton Keynes. Those buses ran in both directions about every 7 - 9 minutes from 05.30 to midnight. It also involve perhaps 10 extra staff at Northampton between these hours to help passengers and supervise queuing and luggage loading, presumably similarly at Milton Keynes. The cost of this must have been pretty high.

 

[Rail Quest]

I pretty much agree with your post but a fitter or two familiar with idiosyncrasies of these units might’ve made a significant dent in the number of failures seen since these shuttles started.
The Pendo drags you mention elsewhere often had a fitter travelling onboard.

I think some/all of these services already have fitters onboard though they can only do so much. My service with 805005 last Friday had two fitters onboard but, given two of its engines failed repeatedly between Wigan and Hellifield, the unit wouldn't have made it much further, with or without fitters. To give you an idea of the scale of the failures on that unit, we had one engine fail on approach to Blackburn, that engine plus another fail on approach to Clitheroe, followed by one of those two failing on approach to Hellifield if I'm not mistaken.

I would like to think that Avanti have tried very hard to try and make a success of this but have been struggling with availability / reliability of class 8xx trains .. So this must raise the question is class 8xx actually fit for purpose ?

Completely agreed. The poor reliability of these units on diesel power is, tbh, the only substantial problem I see with the diverts. What's the reliability like with the units on North Wales and, if it's a lot better, what makes these services any different?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What's the reliability like with the units on North Wales and, if it's a lot better, what makes these services any different?

Flatter gradient profile, on the North Wales route, possibly?

 

[Rail Quest]

Flatter gradient profile, on the North Wales route, possibly?

That was my initial thoughts, but 005 failed before it even reached the S&C. Wigan to Blackburn isn't exactly hilly as far as I'm aware, and Blackburn to Clitheroe is mainly downhill yet that was enough to knock two engines out.

What about that stretch on the WCML immediately out of Wigan? They start the engines there then proceed to immediately rev them to full power for accelerating up to the high line speed in that section, presumably whilst they're still cold. Perhaps that's causing excessive wear?

 

[johndarm]

5Z89 on the move again

 

[Carlisle]

I think some/all of these services already have fitters onboard though they can only do so much. My service with 805005 last Friday had two fitters onboard

Thanks for the information.
Sounds like Avanti for whatever reasons have essentially thrown in the towel today & let the busses do most of the work .

 

[shredder1]

Had wondered whether a 'North West Round Robin' might work (£34.25 with railcard) in conjunction with an Off Peak Day Return from Preston to Hellifield, route "via Clitheroe" (£10.05 with railcard). Unless, of course, an Off Peak Day Return from Preston to Carlisle, route "via Penrith" has been made valid for travel via some temporary easement, at £20.20 (with railcard). Can anyone advise? The 4 days in 8 'North West Rover' is £67.45 with railcard.

Thank you very much, thats a big difference, thank you.

 

[dk1]

The cold weather can't be helping the traction reliability, and the lack of redundancy given a single engine failure can mean a 5 car train doesn't reliably make it over the gradients is far from ideal. There were fewer issues IIRC with 57 drags in the past, though I don't recall those being done in the winter. If the next diverts are in more favourable weather it may be a more solid operation, but at least they are attempting to run a service by train here.

Most of the failures I have seen are related to frozen toilets.

 

[Spandau]

Most of the failures I have seen are related to frozen toilets.

Hilarious that the train runs empty because the toilets are frozen then folk are put on a bus that, er, has no toilet.

 

[dk1]

Most of the failures I have seen are related to frozen toilets.

Hilarious that the train runs empty because the toilets are frozen then folk are put on a bus that, er, has no toilet.

Possibly also because traincrew would end up with no toilets so do not work in that particular unit. We all got hustled into the front unit.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Most of the failures I have seen are related to frozen toilets.

Hilarious that the train runs empty because the toilets are frozen then folk are put on a bus that, er, has no toilet.

The bus I was on from Carlisle (12:25) had a working toilet

 

[Merle Haggard]

Most of the failures I have seen are related to frozen toilets.

There was a recent case - at least according to another thread - when the last St Pancras - Sheffield service of the evening was worked by an 810 with no toilets working.

 

[dk1]

There was a recent case - at least according to another thread - when the last St Pancras - Sheffield service of the evening was worked by an 810 with no toilets working.

Not good but I suppose it stops enroute. Trouble with the S&C diverts according to the TM was that it was 2h20 if everything goes okay but no chance to stop to allow use of facilities or to transfer into the other unit thats even if the crew agreed to staff the offending 805.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Not good but I suppose it stops enroute. Trouble with the S&C diverts according to the TM was that it was 2h20 if everything goes okay but no chance to stop to allow use of facilities or to transfer into the other unit thats even if the crew agreed to staff the offending 805.

Yes, but apparently only to booked dwell times. The station facilities had long been closed for the night.

 

[dk1]

Yes, but apparently only to booked dwell times. The station facilities had long been closed for the night.

Several cross legs (or worse) on that service then

 

[The Planner]

Indeed, it is. It's a long time since the Pendo. drags, thought that the concept had been abandoned.
Interesting, by contrast, that the similar Chlltern Lines shuttle into Euston idea (3 x 221s, or the current equivalent) has been abandoned. From the way that the Hanslope blockade was dealt with, it's now considered preferable to have (generally) a change of trains at Rugby then an RRB between Northampton and Milton Keynes. Those buses ran in both directions about every 7 - 9 minutes from 05.30 to midnight. It also involve perhaps 10 extra staff at Northampton between these hours to help passengers and supervise queuing and luggage loading, presumably similarly at Milton Keynes. The cost of this must have been pretty high.

NR pay for it anyway and that solution is always going to shift more people than an hourly diversion.