Avanti West Coast via Settle (for WCML Bridge replacement next January?)

[JTR60]

One diversion 1Z89 actually arrived on time this afternoon.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:s23182/2026-01-05/detailed#allox_id=0

I was on this service and have to say it was an exemplary run. Speed was held at a steady 58-60mph from Appleby to Ais Gill summit and on the climb from Whalley to Wilpshire it was 42-44mph all the way up. We were slightly over the 40mph most of the way from Hellifield to Blackburn and kept to time perfectly. I think it shows the timings are quite do able but if a driver is more cautious a little time is lost.

 

[D6130]

I was on this service and have to say it was an exemplary run. Speed was held at a steady 58-60mph from Appleby to Ais Gill summit and on the climb from Whalley to Wilpshire it was 42-44mph all the way up. We were slightly over the 40mph most of the way from Hellifield to Blackburn and kept to time perfectly. I think it shows the timings are quite do able but if a driver is more cautious a little time is lost.

I was under the impression that the speed limit between Hellifield and Blackburn is 45 mph....not 40.

 

[dk1]

Not exactly. I was on board the 0923 at Carlisle this morning at the time it was first delayed and then cancelled. And the explanation given on board for the delay and then cancellation was that (with an outside temperature of something like -6degC the water in the toilets was frozen throughout causing them all to not work. Third world problems in 21st century Britain.

sounds like an own goal to me. We suffered similar in the early days of Stadlers dumping their water tanks in very low temperatures.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==

Seems a bit over the top to be calling for people to be sacked over a few unit faults and other teething troubles.

It’s quite a laughable comment. Nobody gets dismissed on the railway for such things. Goodness only knows how badly employees are treated in other industries with that attitude.

 

[Tester]

Seems a bit over the top to be calling for people to be sacked over a few unit faults and other teething troubles.

Actually heads rolling is a bit more serious than that

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Actually heads rolling is a bit more serious than that

Is that activity similar to cheese rolling?

 

[D6130]

Is that activity similar to cheese rolling?

I believe that a few people have suffered damaged heads doing that activity over the years!

 

[cadder toad]

It isn’t.

The point is to provide for journeys within NW England, and between parts of NW England and Scotland. London to Glasgow passengers are routed via the ECML.

It's still bizarre. If the point of the diversion and the bus to Lockerbie(for an onward train to Glasgow) is to provide a link between NW England and Scotland, why break the connections?

The regular 5/10 car trains over S&C show there's been a serious plan to provide a decent level of train service from NW England to Carlisle. I would have thought that was with a view to providing a link on to Scotland. Maybe I'm wrong and it's simply to serve the Carlisle market?

LNER were advising not to travel via ECML today

 

[DaveHarries]

I believe that a few people have suffered damaged heads doing that activity over the years!

Indeed but there is a certain "bried" (pun intended - sorry...!) of people who will do anything regardless of whether it hurts or not.

Dave

 

[dave59]

65 Leeds - Keighley
75 Keighley - Snaygill (Regional boundary South of Skipton)
60 Snaygill-Skipton South Junction
40 Skipton South -Skipton North Junction
65 Skipton North Junction - Hellifield
80 Hellifield - Long Marton (3 Miles N of Appleby)
30 Long Marton-Newbiggin (Gypsum mining subsidence slack: one and a half miles).
75 Newbiggin-Petteril Bridge Junction.

What might jolt someone into raising the blanket 60mph line speed. A firework? Probably just needs a pen stroke for much of the line - or an EPS for passenger trains.

 

[D6130]

What might jolt someone into raising the blanket 60mph line speed. A firework? Probably just needs a pen stroke for much of the line - or an EPS for passenger trains.

It will need someone in the DfT - with the permission of the Treasury - to sign off a considerable increase in the maintenance budget.

 

[jp4712]

Currently sitting on 1Z88, the 0909 from Crewe, at Preston. Passengers have been told that the front unit is being taken out of service due to no water, and all passengers are having to decamp to the other unit. So it’s 100% full in First, and of course the seat reservations aren’t working. I daren’t go and look to see how full Standard is in case someone nicks my seat!

 

[Spandau]

Farce again today. 1Z83 07:24 Carlisle-Preston ran empty re frozen toilet water and replaced by a coach. This unit was coupled to form the 10-car 1Z88 northbound at Preston, doors released and pax piled in. Ten minutes later there's an announcement about the frozen toilets. Those of us in the back set are re- directed to the front 5 coaches delaying departure.

How difficult is it for Avanti to get their act together?

 

[dave59]

It will need someone in the DfT - with the permission of the Treasury - to sign off a considerable increase in the maintenance budget.

Mr Sunak: “So I am ending this long-running saga. I am cancelling the rest of the HS2 project and in its place, we will reinvest every single penny, £36 billion in hundreds of new transport projects..."

 

[MrJeeves]

Currently sitting on 1Z88, the 0909 from Crewe, at Preston. Passengers have been told that the front unit is being taken out of service due to no water, and all passengers are having to decamp to the other unit. So it’s 100% full in First, and of course the seat reservations aren’t working. I daren’t go and look to see how full Standard is in case someone nicks my seat!

Have you at least got 1st class catering?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Today's 1Z86 took 06:05 Birmingham New Street to Carlisle on the plus side made it all the way to Carlisle, buy did for some reason take 46 minutes between Clitheroe and Hellifield instead of the usual 20 or so. It didn't lose time north of Hellifield, but it did have around 20 minutes slack which it only managed to use 14 minutes of.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Today's 1Z86 took 06:05 Birmingham New Street to Carlisle on the plus side made it all the way to Carlisle, buy did for some reason take 46 minutes between Clitheroe and Hellifield instead of the usual 20 or so. It didn't lose time north of Hellifield, but it did have around 20 minutes slack which it only managed to use 14 minutes of.

The delay was caused by me! I was driving 2H10, which was canned at Hellifield due to a unit fault. Unfortunately we were blocking the platform for quite a while which delayed 1Z86.

 

[800001]

Yes I had wasted journey from Appleby to Carlisle wanting to catch this 805 from Carlisle to Preston and return. Apparently a “Northern member of staff who shall remain anomalous” told me theses trains were not designed to venture into Cumbria as it gets too cold up here

Yet the same type of train manages to reach Inverness and Aberdeen where it gets just as, if not colder than Cumbria.

 

[Krokodil]

This isn’t a “teething problem”. The various agencies involved have had months to plan for this diversion and they have failed. Full stop !

You're being ridiculous. It's quite a bit better than Avanti's performance in North Wales at some points over the last couple of years.

 

[voyagerdude220]

You're being ridiculous. It's quite a bit better than Avanti's performance in North Wales at some points over the last couple of years.

I never remember the 220/221s having problems when they ran over the Settle and Carlisle. Indeed going back around 15-20 years ago when we didn't have the likes of Traksy or Realtime Trains, I'd go to a Railway bridge near where I used to live, purely on the knowledge of what time the 220/221 should run through the area and 99% of the time they were on time give or take a few minutes.

I remember once being very confused one time because the same 4-car Voyager which I spotted running southbound returned unexpectedly northbound about half an hour later, so it must have swapped sets at Blackburn (unlike yesterday morning's failure!)

I also remember a southbound Pendolino drag failing one Sunday late afternoon/evening somewhere between Carlisle and Settle and the resident Kirkby Stephen thunderbird served it's purpose, rescuing the demic 57+390 combination within an hour or two of it failing.

I'd hate to think how long it would take them to rescue a failed 805 over the Settle and Carlisle if such a problem arises within the next week or so. And this is coming from someone who was extremely happy and excited when I first heard about Avanti diverting over the Settle and Carlisle.

 

[Carlisle]

Blackburn was a scheduled stop on some of those early Virgin Cross Country Voyager S&C diversions

 

[FrontSideBus]

Yet the same type of train manages to reach Inverness and Aberdeen where it gets just as, if not colder than Cumbria.

Perhaps LNER specified preventative options such as extra lagging ect which Avanti did not?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Blackburn was a scheduled stop on some of those early Virgin Cross Country Voyager S&C diversions

Yes, I remember being on Blackburn Station maybe 20 years ago (can't remember how I ended up there that day!) and the Station Staff said they weren't sure if a Bournemouth bound diversion was actually calling there or just stopping to wait for it's booked path. Sure enough a 5-car 221 stopped on platform 2 and the Driver released the doors. Early afternoon on a Saturday.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2026 ==

The delay was caused by me! I was driving 2H10, which was canned at Hellifield due to a unit fault. Unfortunately we were blocking the platform for quite a while which delayed 1Z86.

Haha thanks for your post. I wondered if 2H10 had something to do with it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2026 ==

Today's 11:27 Carlisle to Preston last reported Hellifield 13:10 (18 late). It left Carlisle on time but seemingly had a late running freight put in front of it 10 minutes before the Avanti reached Appleby. Seemingly the 1Z headcode not influencing the Signaller's decision of which train to run first.

 

[DJH1971]

Any news if the North Wales to London services will be suspended whilst the 805's are working on the S&C?

 

[InkyScrolls]

Today's 11:27 Carlisle to Preston last reported Hellifield 13:10 (18 late). It left Carlisle on time but seemingly had a late running freight put in front of it 10 minutes before the Avanti reached Appleby. Seemingly the 1Z headcode not influencing the Signaller's decision of which train to run first.

The Kirkby There signaller made the right decision; had 6E97 not lost any further time 1Z87 would not have been delayed. Unfortunately 6E97 did lose time unexpectedly, causing the delay. There was no opportunity to loop 6E97 at Blea Moor as there was another freight in the UGL. Nothing else can be done now the other loops have all been taken out.

 

[voyagerdude220]

The Kirkby There signaller made the right decision; had 6E97 not lost any further time 1Z87 would not have been delayed. Unfortunately 6E97 did lose time unexpectedly, causing the delay. There was no opportunity to loop 6E97 at Blea Moor as there was another freight in the UGL. Nothing else can be done now the other loops have all been taken out.

Ok fair enough, I retract my criticism of the Signaller.

 

[jp4712]

A quick report on this morning’s northbound journey while it’s fresh.

1Z88 from Crewe to Carlisle departed from Crewe with First Class about two thirds full. The First Class Host was only on to Preston, so although everyone was immediately offered tea/coffee/juice, she prioritised breakfast for “those who’ve actually paid for their ticket”. This turned out to be a small proportion of those in the coach! Most, it seems, were retired ex-BR staff on safeguarded passes. So I got my cooked breakfast very quickly, and even toast included.

The seat reservation system wasn’t working: I wondered when it would come to life, but it stayed off throughout the journey.

At Preston, we coupled to the set that was already in the platform: but within a minute, a message came over the PA that the other unit was out of service due to a problem. I didn’t hear the announcement properly but I gained the impression that it was a problem with water: but I also overheard other passengers say something about the coupling systems. Be that as it may, both units went to Carlisle but with one locked out of use.

The seat reservation issue became an issue at Preston, as passengers joined and the traditional ‘that’s my seat, oh no it isn’t’ conversations took place. Certainly First was full on departure, and latecomers were relegated to the very far end seats - which don’t have a window, hardly ideal for a sightseeing ride.

Tea/coffee/juice was offered sporadically by the new First Class Host but to my surprise, breakfast was offered again fairly late on in the journey (not sure exactly where as I declined, but certainly after Settle).

Arrival at Carlisle was just 8 minutes late. I hung around the station for a while then left at about 1310, but it seemed to me that the southbound 1Z89 due out at 1321 seemed to be much quieter when I left - where did everyone go? I can’t be sure but I *think* both sets were in use for the south working. They certainly weren’t on the 1337 to Leeds, which is what I’m sitting on now and seems to have only two or three gricers.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Any news if the North Wales to London services will be suspended whilst the 805's are working on the S&C?

You could easily find that information yourself by checking the Realtime Trains website, or planning a direct journey Holyhead to London.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Holyhead between 0200 and 0159 on 06/01/2026

Train information at Holyhead between 0200 and 0159 on 06/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains shows several Avanti departures between Holyhead and London and vice versa. The notable difference being that all trains at Holyhead are 5 cars, no 10 car workings, presumably to release sets for Preston/Carlisle workings.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2026 ==

A quick report on this morning’s northbound journey while it’s fresh.

1Z88 from Crewe to Carlisle departed from Crewe with First Class about two thirds full. The First Class Host was only on to Preston, so although everyone was immediately offered tea/coffee/juice, she prioritised breakfast for “those who’ve actually paid for their ticket”. This turned out to be a small proportion of those in the coach! Most, it seems, were retired ex-BR staff on safeguarded passes. So I got my cooked breakfast very quickly, and even toast included.

Thank you for your interesting report.
Likewise I was surprised at how busy First Class was on yesterday's 12:07 from Preston when I had a quick glance.

I wonder if all/most of the diversions have offered the full First Class service. At least you got offered Breakfast (twice?) and drinks along your journey today, which is much better than some forum members. I wonder why the post Preston breakfast offer was made so long after departing Preston.

 

[dk1]

Currently sitting on 1Z88, the 0909 from Crewe, at Preston. Passengers have been told that the front unit is being taken out of service due to no water, and all passengers are having to decamp to the other unit. So it’s 100% full in First, and of course the seat reservations aren’t working. I daren’t go and look to see how full Standard is in case someone nicks my seat!

It wasn’t too bad in the end and the woman was reunited with her glove

 

[800001]

Perhaps LNER specified preventative options such as extra lagging ect which Avanti did not?

No. They suffer the same toilet failures as well, with pipes blocking and freezing.

 

[Ollie29]

I *think* both sets were in use for the south working.

Can confirm that both sets were on the south working back to Preston. Return working is rather quiet as well!