On what routes, if any does on train catering make a profit?

[Failed Unit]

I cannot imagine that for one moment. I’d happily be corrected but it sounds so out of touch with reality mate.

I always suspected it was to cover short staffing. I remember occasionally they would service tea / coffee then go back to their duties. This wasn’t normal I would add.

 

[dk1]

I always suspected it was to cover short staffing. I remember occasionally they would service tea / coffee then go back to their duties. This wasn’t normal I would add.

Yeah some of our Senior Conductors at Anglia Railways would do it to assist stretched catering staff but this was never official and would never be dictated by management. That would have put the cat amongst the pigeons.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I meant BR, sorry. My 1962 ABC British Railways Coaches lists open second W25189 as having an "auto-buffet" compartment with vending machines for self-service light refreshments.

There was a short article and picture in Trains Illustrated around 1961-2. I think I recollect that it was used on the Cambrian, presumably the Cambrian Coast Express.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

When my eldest boy was very young - we did a trip to Leeds on GNER - and despite being a pass holder (and I always tell the staff so - as we are / were entitled to soft drinks / tea etc only - no free food etc they made a big fuss over him as a "customer" and made sure he was treated brilliantly. Always stuck in my mind that.

 

[TheGrew]

Another upvote for the vending machines on the Sudostbahn Stadler units. Really nice hot chocolate.
The only blocker I could really see in the UK would be related to Health & Safety with trusting customers to apply their own lids to hot drinks….
Given the proliferation of decent hot drink vending machines, I would be surprised if the numbers didn’t stack up on medium and long distance services that would otherwise lack provision.

H&S is an interesting one. I do think, though, that with the number of Costa Express vending machines you see popping up, you would think that sticking one on a train wouldn't be too much of a challenge. Or else I would suggest just cold food and drinks if people really want their coffee or tea fix, I suspect many would still prefer one crafted by a barista in many stations up and down the country.

 

[Bodiam]

There was a short article and picture in Trains Illustrated around 1961-2. I think I recollect that it was used on the Cambrian, presumably the Cambrian Coast Express.

The photo in the ABC certainly shows it in WR chocolate and cream.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The photo in the ABC certainly shows it in WR chocolate and cream.

From what I remember there was a similar view in the article, together with an internal one showing the machine in place of seats in one of the compartments (it was an SK, of course).

 

[takno]

H&S is an interesting one. I do think, though, that with the number of Costa Express vending machines you see popping up, you would think that sticking one on a train wouldn't be too much of a challenge. Or else I would suggest just cold food and drinks if people really want their coffee or tea fix, I suspect many would still prefer one crafted by a barista in many stations up and down the country.

There are a few challenges. The first is around keeping it stocked, clean, supplied with water, kept powered, and with enough waste capacity to deal with their jaw-droppingly wasteful pipe-cleaning cycles. The second is making sure the idiot customers don't wonder around the train with an open cup of liquid spilling it on everybody as they pass. The third is that, even though you've saved some money by not having a staff member, you still really have to justify the 2-4 seats or a large luggage rack they'd be displacing.

I can't see it washing its face tbh, particularly since when I've seen them abroad the number of people using them has been absolutely tiny.

Personally I think vending machines (and Costa Coffee generally) scream downmarket, and make the whole train look a bit Regional Railways. It's not something I'd want to see on an Intercity service.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Personally I think vending machines (and Costa Coffee generally) scream downmarket, and make the whole train look a bit Regional Railways. It's not something I'd want to see on an Intercity service.

Heaven forfend that other rail passengers might actually enjoy the beverages of most popular coffee shop chain in the UK, even on Intercity services. I pray that nothing more downmarket than Fortnum & Masons is ever offered to you while travelling. Your sensibilities obviously couldn't cope!

 

[Darandio]

Heaven forfend that other rail passengers might actually enjoy the beverages of most popular coffee shop chain in the UK, even on Intercity services. I pray that nothing more downmarket than Fortnum & Masons is ever offered to you while travelling. Your sensibilities obviously couldn't cope!

It's easy to selectively quote isn't it. Completely ignoring the other entirely suggestions in the post as to why that type of vending machine wouldn't work on a train.

 

[takno]

Heaven forfend that other rail passengers might actually enjoy the beverages of most popular coffee shop chain in the UK, even on Intercity services. I pray that nothing more downmarket than Fortnum & Masons is ever offered to you while travelling. Your sensibilities obviously couldn't cope!

The point is more that people are suggesting that the vending machines would add value to the train and encourage passengers. Given that i never see them being used, and don't like the look of them I'm suggesting it's probably wrong.

FWIW I did have some nice Fortnum and Mason tea once, but I'm not aware of them doing particularly noteworthy coffee. I mostly drink Aldi instant personally.

 

[Krokodil]

Personally I think vending machines (and Costa Coffee generally) scream downmarket, and make the whole train look a bit Regional Railways. It's not something I'd want to see on an Intercity service.

Intercity services deserve a proper buffet with hot food (if only bacon butties on shorter journeys).

Regional express services however would benefit greatly from vending machines.

 

[aar0]

When GWR had HSTs they offered hot bacon rolls, as well as “proper” barista style coffee. Early days of the IETs the bacon rolls remained, cooked to order and brought to your seat (though not very promoted). I have recently asked what happened to them, and was told that the HST grill would cook the bacon in 90 seconds, whereas the IET takes 9-10 minutes! So the volume of orders they used to take on a morning train are impossible to fulfill - so they were dropped.

 

[island]

H&S is an interesting one. I do think, though, that with the number of Costa Express vending machines you see popping up, you would think that sticking one on a train wouldn't be too much of a challenge.

There are a few challenges. The first is around keeping it stocked, clean, supplied with water, kept powered, and with enough waste capacity to deal with their jaw-droppingly wasteful pipe-cleaning cycles. The second is making sure the idiot customers don't wonder around the train with an open cup of liquid spilling it on everybody as they pass. The third is that, even though you've saved some money by not having a staff member, you still really have to justify the 2-4 seats or a large luggage rack they'd be displacing.

I can't see it washing its face tbh, particularly since when I've seen them abroad the number of people using them has been absolutely tiny.

I don't expect those vending machines would be able to handle neutral sections very well either if the power cuts out to their sockets.

 

[dk1]

H&S is an interesting one. I do think, though, that with the number of Costa Express vending machines you see popping up, you would think that sticking one on a train wouldn't be too much of a challenge. Or else I would suggest just cold food and drinks if people really want their coffee or tea fix, I suspect many would still prefer one crafted by a barista in many stations up and down the country.

Although agreeing that they are prolific these days I’ve still never used one.

 

[S101]

Station catering has definitely improved considerably over the last 30 years, so this would obviously reduce demand for on train catering.
At most stations, there is going to be far more choice and better quality options from the station outlets. There is also the risk that the catering on the train will not unavailable even if the service is advertised as having catering.

Oh yes, we're so lucky. None stop chain, corporate, BS. Upper Crust and Costa, when did peoples idea of good food get so low....

 

[dk1]

Oh yes, we're so lucky. None stop chain, corporate, BS. Upper Crust and Costa, when did peoples idea of good food get so low....

I remember Travellers Fare very well indeed and although their station catering really pulled their socks up in the mid-80s (partially down to Pru Leith) some of my favourites have been Upper Crust and the likes through the 90s & 2000s. These days it’s great to have the franchise options that we see. Saying that I am still a fan of buying onboard too!!

 

[Falcon1200]

Upper Crust and Costa, when did peoples idea of good food get so low....

Maybe I have lower standards but I do not find the food and drink offered by those outlets, and others such as Starbucks and Cafe Nero, in any way poor. And their coffee is way better than that served on train in the past (MaxPax, need I say more....)

 

[JamesT]

I don't expect those vending machines would be able to handle neutral sections very well either if the power cuts out to their sockets.

Integrating a battery into the vending machine sufficient to cover short outages like that wouldn’t be particularly hard. I think it’s one of the easier aspects of a train environment to handle.

 

[godfreycomplex]

The other issue with vending machines is how will the vending machine be secured? A buffet trolley coming loose in a collision/derailment can easily cause serious injury or worse (hence trolley brakes/securing devices), and vending machines are usually much, much heavier.

 

[Bill57p9]

I don't expect those vending machines would be able to handle neutral sections very well either if the power cuts out to their sockets.

The other issue with vending machines is how will the vending machine be secured? A buffet trolley coming loose in a collision/derailment can easily cause serious injury or worse (hence trolley brakes/securing devices), and vending machines are usually much, much heavier.

Challenges somehow already solved by our continental friends.


The standards of beverages available "to go" has come on leaps and bounds over the past 30 years.
I recall a Naked Video* sketch where Rab C Nesbitt is asked on a train by the stewardess "tea or coffee?" to which he takes a gulp as responds "I dun'nae know. You tell me"

* for the benefit of those significantly younger than myself, despite the name Naked Video is absolutely not what it sounds like though I probably wouldn't go as far as to suggest that 1980s Glaswegian humour is SFW in 2025.

 

[telstarbox]

Heaven forfend that other rail passengers might actually enjoy the beverages of most popular coffee shop chain in the UK, even on Intercity services. I pray that nothing more downmarket than Fortnum & Masons is ever offered to you while travelling. Your sensibilities obviously couldn't cope!

OP had a point - Costa vending machines are usually seen in the grimiest of petrol stations.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

OP had a point - Costa vending machines are usually seen in the grimiest of petrol stations.

I wouldn't know, I drive electric! I often use Costa machines, normally in Tesco branches where the machines are regularly cleaned and the coffee is perfectly drinkable.

 

[WideRanger]

I have to confess to not particularly liking tea or coffee. But I am struck by the fact that in Japan, there is a huge market (and lots of variety) for canned and bottled teas and coffees, which are served hot or cold from vending machines. Are these so much worse than freshly ground coffee that it makes the fuss, cost, danger and risks to profitability worth it?

I know that, overall, trolley service on long distance trains in Japan is regarded very highly, with people being able to buy full (cold) meals in bento boxes, and a wide range of snacks, drinks (including alcoholic drinks), at pretty reasonable prices. For those people who want more variety than that most stations that are not tiny have multiple shops (including sometimes on the platform) also selling catering options to take on to the train - often run by local businesses. On long journeys, it's really not unusual to see most people eating or drinking something they had bought from either the trolley or the station.

Could it be that our British expectation of what is 'proper food' and drink is particularly hard to deliver in a railway setting at prices people are willing to pay? And (somewhat ironically) the Japanese food that is much easier to deliver in a railway environment would, if sold on a British high street, be regarded as 'premium'? I'd love to see someone doing an experiment with Japanese style catering on a train (and I mean real Japanese, not Wagamama or Itsu) to see whether it was popular and profitable.

 

[canary fan]

OP had a point - Costa vending machines are usually seen in the grimiest of petrol stations.

As well as in just about every Tesco Express orcSainsburyvlocal store-but don’t let facts spoil your argument!

 

[sheff1]

I'd love to see someone doing an experiment with Japanese style catering on a train (and I mean real Japanese, not Wagamama or Itsu) to see whether it was popular and profitable.

I'd love to see someone do Indian style tiffin boxes .

Now the discussion has moved abroad, I must mention the morning trains from Hamburg to Kiel a few years back when women from a local bakery boarded at an intermediate station with baskets of freshly baked pastries, croissants etc. I am sure they would not have bothered if it was not profitable.

 

[dk1]

Speaking to a friend from GA this morning who has worked in train catering for over 20 years and she said that she has never taken as much money in a month as she did on the bar/trolley during November/December just gone. Weekends were apparently ridiculous.

 

[DelW]

One of the common thoughts in this thread is that on-train catering isn't profitable overall, and may not even cover its direct costs, but is seen as an effective way of attracting passengers to train travel.

With that in mind, it would be interesting to compare the cost of subsidising catering, with the costs of advertising and other promotions (ticket 'sales' and the like). If the catering subsidy is relatively small by comparison, it might be worthwhile to consider it as a part of the total promotional budget, rather than removing it as a cost saving measure. Plenty of TOCs seem to be willing to pay out for TV adverts etc. which are never going to be profitable in themselves, but are considered justifiable if they increase passenger numbers.

 

[Brightonboy]

One of the common thoughts in this thread is that on-train catering isn't profitable overall, and may not even cover its direct costs, but is seen as an effective way of attracting passengers to train travel.

With that in mind, it would be interesting to compare the cost of subsidising catering, with the costs of advertising and other promotions (ticket 'sales' and the like). If the catering subsidy is relatively small by comparison, it might be worthwhile to consider it as a part of the total promotional budget, rather than removing it as a cost saving measure. Plenty of TOCs seem to be willing to pay out for TV adverts etc. which are never going to be profitable in themselves, but are considered justifiable if they increase passenger numbers.

I only rarely travel by train these days - most of my travel is in directions that are not well served (if at all) by rail. However, the journeys I do make by rail tend to be in the 2 - 3 hour bracket and I find when I am on such journeys that the absence of on train catering is a real downer, I don't want to buy a coffee before departure at, say, 0800 but by 0930/1000 ish I'm looking for a trolley to come through. Similarly, on my return journeys, often from a station without refreshment facilities and involving short connections (e.g. Paddington - Farringdon for Thameslink), the hour and half or so to Paddington may be my first opportunity to sit back and 'switch off' and a trolley is a welcome sight.
So.... a lack of on-train catering definitely is a disbenefit to me and something that puts me off further rail travel when it is otherwise an option.

 

[djdanny77]

I noticed that on the 6:39 Exeter St David’s to Paddington service that the trolley service is no more in standard class “due to staff cutbacks on the route”. First class offering remains as before.