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On what routes, if any does on train catering make a profit?

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TheGrew

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I wonder if anyone has considered putting decent vending machines on board trains to replace staff. You see some pretty sophisticated ones in places like hospitals these days. Would no doubt save on staff costs for lesser-used services, and with digital stock reporting, you could have an idea of when a particular unit needed to be refilled.
 
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dk1

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I wonder if anyone has considered putting decent vending machines on board trains to replace staff. You see some pretty sophisticated ones in places like hospitals these days. Would no doubt save on staff costs for lesser-used services, and with digital stock reporting, you could have an idea of when a particular unit needed to be refilled.
Who is going to top up and monitor these machines? Trains get switched round all the time due to service disruption. It’s quite obvious why it’s not been done before.
 

TheGrew

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The machines can be monitored remotely. Topping them up, if required can be done at terminal stations, or at the depot overnight. The main difference is that you can substantially reduce staff costs if catering is indeed unprofitable.
I guess another alternative is to switch to the airline model and have guards sell catering amongst their safety critical duties.
 

deltic

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The machines can be monitored remotely. Topping them up, if required can be done at terminal stations, or at the depot overnight. The main difference is that you can substantially reduce staff costs if catering is indeed unprofitable.
I guess another alternative is to switch to the airline model and have guards sell catering amongst their safety critical duties.
Can't remember if it was Latvia or Lithuania but the guards who seemed to be mainly female also sold refreshments even on relatively short journeys.
 

Sealink

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Exeter-Waterloo?

On Summer Sundays there is a GWR service from Weymouth to Cardiff with no catering. Most other trains go to Gloucester. Distance wise shorter than Exeter Waterloo but time on trains similar
 
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TheGrew

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Can't remember if it was Latvia or Lithuania but the guards who seemed to be mainly female also sold refreshments even on relatively short journeys.
I think I also heard that Avanti had quite a lot of former Virgin Atlantic cabin crew as train managers. Possibly from back when Virgin was the operator with a 'group' transfer.
 

danshrimp

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Yeah quite, pretty sure a vending machine was the option on the Paris-Nice sleeper when I used it 10 years ago.
Though as it happens, the French sleepers have since switched to guards performing catering duties from their staff compartment (or not at all on some routes).
 

ajrm

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I travelled first class with LNER in the summer and was amazed at just how much booze they gave away. As someone who works in an industry where we count every half penny, I couldn't believe the decadence - especially as I'd upgraded for about £30.

Leaving Edinburgh, the stewardess was handing out two bottles of double gins without even asking. They ran out after Newcastle but told us to wait until after York, as they were getting restocked. Sure enough, it flowed again after York!

As a customer it was great. Everyone was either sloshed or going home with a stack of miniatures in their pockets (someone at the next table even left with three quarters of a bottle of wine!), but I can't see how it's sustainable. Every other ToC is cutting back or getting rid of catering all together, but these guys are just doling it out. I don't know if that's the standard, or just the staff trying to be extra nice, but I couldn't help but think it was a bit irresponsible and that they're probably doing themselves out of a job one day, as no accountant at my company would stand for that. As a Government owned company, I am sure it'd get DOGE'd or subcontracted sooner rather than later.
Sounds like you got lucky! It's very inconsistent though. In my experience the Newcastle and Aberdeen crews are more generous than the others. I suspect there's a prescribed way of working but the more hospitable crews ignore it...
 

dk1

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I wonder what the RMT would make of that idea….?
They tried that many years ago on Anglia Railways CrossLink and why the senior conductors office and local door switch was either side of the 3-car class 170 buffet bar. Was never going to happen and any plans were scuppered as some Liverpool Street employees were Muslim and refused to handle pork products.
 

deltic

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They tried that many years ago on Anglia Railways CrossLink and why the senior conductors office and local door switch was either side of the 3-car class 170 buffet bar. Was never going to happen and any plans were scuppered as some Liverpool Street employees were Muslim and refused to handle pork products.
Didn't Sea Containers when they ran ECML have their guards serving in the restaurant car or I'm mis-remembering this.
 

takno

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I'd like to think they would be happy with this, providing it was properly negotiated and Guards, Conductors, OBS, whatever were allowed to opt in to doing it.
It doesn't really work if it's opt in. The point that's been made elsewhere in the thread is that if people can't depend on the service then they will make other arrangements.

Swedish local services also have the guard running a buffet, even where it requires them to close the counter every 10 minutes to do the doors.
 

dk1

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Didn't Sea Containers when they ran ECML have their guards serving in the restaurant car or I'm mis-remembering this.
I cannot imagine that for one moment. I’d happily be corrected but it sounds so out of touch with reality mate.
 

sheff1

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I have certainly seen operational staff assisting the First Class catering teams with service on EMT/EMR.
 

Tetchytyke

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As a customer it was great. Everyone was either sloshed or going home with a stack of miniatures in their pockets (someone at the next table even left with three quarters of a bottle of wine!), but I can't see how it's sustainable.
Experiences will always vary, but my experience of LNER, and VTEC before it, is that they are not like that anymore. They used to be like that in East Coast days, but not any longer. The first thing David Horne did when he came in at VTEC was nickel-and-dime the niceties away, even the wine glasses got smaller.

That's actually how airlines do it as well, would be amazed how much it makes first class worth while in some people's minds.
Absolutely, because of the significant difference between the wholesale price of an item and the retail price of an item.

A 5cl miniature bottle of Gordon's gin will cost about £1.50-£2 from a standard wholesaler like Matthew Clark. If you can chuck massive volume at the wholesaler, which the airlines and the train companies can do, you'll probably get it even cheaper. It is the same with other entry-level spirits such as Bells or Famous Grouse.

So in the example above, someone paid £30 extra to go in first class and maybe had four 5cl bottles of spirits during the journey. The retail cost of four double gins would be what, £25, and so the passenger feels like they've just had a bloody good deal. But wholesale those four 5cl bottles of gin won't have cost LNER much more than about six quid.

This works all the way up the food chain. People might pay £1500 extra to fly Business Class on Emirates and they'll get access to wines which retail at £200+ a bottle. But given the bulk purchasing power of Emirates, the airline won't be paying wholesale anywhere near what the retail price of the wine is. But people make their value decisions based on the retail value, not the wholesale value.
 

Bodiam

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I wonder if anyone has considered putting decent vending machines on board trains to replace staff.
I have a vague recollection that BT tried putting a vending machine (chocolate bars and the like, maybe cigarettes too in those days) in a Mark I carriage around the early 1960s. I think the machines of the period didn't cope well with movement and vibration, but no doubt there are more robust types now.
 

Jan Mayen

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I have a vague recollection that BT tried putting a vending machine (chocolate bars and the like, maybe cigarettes too in those days) in a Mark I carriage around the early 1960s. I think the machines of the period didn't cope well with movement and vibration, but no doubt there are more robust types now.
I assume you mean British Rail (BR), as opposed to British Telecom (BT) :)
Although I do remember using a Pay Phone on The Gatwick Express years ago!
 

robert thomas

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I have a vague recollection that BT tried putting a vending machine (chocolate bars and the like, maybe cigarettes too in those days) in a Mark I carriage around the early 1960s. I think the machines of the period didn't cope well with movement and vibration, but no doubt there are more robust types now.
It also did filled rolls (ham cheese etc) and I used it several times on The Cambrian Coast Express.
 

Rescars

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I assume you mean British Rail (BR), as opposed to British Telecom (BT) :)
Although I do remember using a Pay Phone on The Gatwick Express years ago!
I'd guess Bodiam was thinking of BTH. Travellers Fare certainly had a manager responsible for all public catering vending machines across the network.

IIRC there were aspirations at one time to install vending machines as a substitute or to augment buffet cars on some routes. Not just choc bars and cigarettes, but beverages and snacks as well. Anyone who has seen the internal mechanisms of a c1970 vending machine (which had every appearance of being a product of the Heath Robinson school of engineering) will not be surprised to realise that the ambition was rapidly overtaken by reality. The whole combination of coin mechanisms, dispensing equipment and, where relevant, cup feeders were unreliable enough when bolted a to a stable floor and connected to mains water and electricity, none of which could be replicated in a Mark 1. Add into the mix the possibilities of passenger generated kicks and thumps to achieve a free vend, never mind more serious damage to access the cashbox or supplies of tobacco and it's not difficult to see why this concept didn't take off.
 

cats_five

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Although I do remember using a Pay Phone on The Gatwick Express years ago!

I remember pay phones on the Leeds - London HST trains. One trip, there was a big holdup somewhere south of Doncaster and we happened to end adjacent to another HST. People were exchanging money & phone cards between opened droplights.
 

WesternLancer

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I'd guess Bodiam was thinking of BTH. Travellers Fare certainly had a manager responsible for all public catering vending machines across the network.
Or maybe just the letter T being next to R on the keyboard?

Tho you make a good addition to the gen in the thread here.
 

Bodiam

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It also did filled rolls (ham cheese etc) and I used it several times on The Cambrian Coast Express.
I meant BR, sorry. My 1962 ABC British Railways Coaches lists open second W25189 as having an "auto-buffet" compartment with vending machines for self-service light refreshments.
 

Krokodil

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I'd guess Bodiam was thinking of BTH. Travellers Fare certainly had a manager responsible for all public catering vending machines across the network.

IIRC there were aspirations at one time to install vending machines as a substitute or to augment buffet cars on some routes. Not just choc bars and cigarettes, but beverages and snacks as well. Anyone who has seen the internal mechanisms of a c1970 vending machine (which had every appearance of being a product of the Heath Robinson school of engineering) will not be surprised to realise that the ambition was rapidly overtaken by reality. The whole combination of coin mechanisms, dispensing equipment and, where relevant, cup feeders were unreliable enough when bolted a to a stable floor and connected to mains water and electricity, none of which could be replicated in a Mark 1. Add into the mix the possibilities of passenger generated kicks and thumps to achieve a free vend, never mind more serious damage to access the cashbox or supplies of tobacco and it's not difficult to see why this concept didn't take off.
Should be better with modern equipment (and rolling stock though). I had no issue using the vending machine on the Sudostbahn units.
 

Bill57p9

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Another upvote for the vending machines on the Sudostbahn Stadler units. Really nice hot chocolate.
The only blocker I could really see in the UK would be related to Health & Safety with trusting customers to apply their own lids to hot drinks….
Given the proliferation of decent hot drink vending machines, I would be surprised if the numbers didn’t stack up on medium and long distance services that would otherwise lack provision.
 

Bristol LHS

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Experiences will always vary, but my experience of LNER, and VTEC before it, is that they are not like that anymore. They used to be like that in East Coast days, but not any longer. The first thing David Horne did when he came in at VTEC was nickel-and-dime the niceties away, even the wine glasses got smaller.

I think it’s highly crew (and time of day) dependent. I’ve often had experiences later in the day where a crew are packing up and they’ve offered me a final drink, and then basically proceed to give me two or three for the road, usually this would be north bound trips, so likely Newcastle or Edinburgh crews. Other journeys, same stretch, they dash round and disappear. Would agree that generally speaking the daytime service is ‘tighter’ these days, even little things like being asked if you want a glass for a canned drink etc seem to be less common.

The thing that irks me is the inconsistency, if I know what I can expect I can plan accordingly. But at present on LNER it’s pretty unpredictable. TPE is similar, but I’ve always had low expectations of their first class, so am more often pleasantly surprised when there’s hot food service etc.
 
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